Blackstone - used oil analysis

[ramffml]

@ramffml - thanks for running this oil and reporting.

I really don't understand why copper would be elevated. The only place I can think of where it's used is crank journal and rod bearings. If iron wear (cylinders) is low, how could full fluid film journal bearings be wearing? Makes no sense to me.

Also, the lab analysis shows zero moly additive in the no vii oil. Why would they not include moly additive?

Very confusing.

ACK! That's a typo on my part. The pdf I attached to that post does show a reported moly of 650 ppm.

 

[ramffml]

Typo corrected, updated original post. Thanks @HEMIMANN for catching that, I double checked the other numbers they all look accurate.

 

[Burla]

ACK! That's a typo on my part. The pdf I attached to that post does show a reported moly of 650 ppm.

Well there ya go, there is a possible source for all of the bad there. High moly = copper, and elevated alum can be in new oil. I do not read bitog anymore, I did see OK'ls uoa of hpl, and I remember it was not that great. I would like to know the group pf hpl numbers, maybe they are better? Just because a high quality oil exists, doesnt necessarily mean the wear will be great, btw neither are redline's wear numbers, it is not personal. In fact many things that create a long oci can also cause wear, as detergents are know to cause wear and reduce it as well, similar to zinc, both things are possible. Not so much for an explanation for that high copper, I wouldnt expect that, that is more from the moly so high.

 

[ramffml]

Well there ya go, there is a possible source for all of the bad there. High moly = copper, and elevated alum can be in new oil. I do not read bitog anymore, I did see OK'ls uoa of hpl, and I remember it was not that great. I would like to know the group pf hpl numbers, maybe they are better? Just because a high quality oil exists, doesnt necessarily mean the wear will be great, btw neither are redline's wear numbers, it is not personal. In fact many things that create a long oci can also cause wear, as detergents are know to cause wear and reduce it as well, similar to zinc, both things are possible. Not so much for an explanation for that high copper, I wouldnt expect that, that is more from the moly so high.

How about lifters? If I got one on the way out would that not show elevated copper or would that (to hemimann's point) require also elevated iron which we're not seeing?

(not sure what you mean by this: "the group pf hpl numbers")

 

[Burla]

How about lifters? If I got one on the way out would that not show elevated copper or would that (to hemimann's point) require also elevated iron which we're not seeing?

(not sure what you mean by this: "the group pf hpl numbers")

Everyone of your runs is high moly, over 200ppm. The highest one you had high moly and the lowest viscosity. If you are following logic and wish to try something, find an oil in your visc range with low moly or normal moly 75ppm and see where copper lands. You might or might not see wear raise in other areas, but you would have an answer to why the copper, which could come from oil cooler, dont know for sure.

 

[ramffml]

Ok so this interesting. I was aware of the high moly = copper relationship you mentioned, but I wasn't aware that it was so strongly correlated. I knew it skewed the results, but I never expected it to be a "direct relationship", tracking eachother so perfectly that as the one goes up, so does the other, and as the one goes down so, does the other.

Last 2 columns (which are actually the earliest samples) are on a very young engine after just switching to redline so perhaps those cols are heavier in wear too just due to break in.

 

[Wild one]

How about lifters? If I got one on the way out would that not show elevated copper or would that (to hemimann's point) require also elevated iron which we're not seeing?

(not sure what you mean by this: "the group pf hpl numbers")

Lifters are hardened steel,no copper in a lifter or cam.Valve guides / rocker arm bushings / rod and main bearings are the only places in a hemi you'll find anything resembling copper

 

[ramffml]

Everyone of your runs is high moly, over 200ppm. The highest one you had high moly and the lowest viscosity. If you are following logic and wish to try something, find an oil in your visc range with low moly or normal moly 75ppm and see where copper lands. You might or might not see wear raise in other areas, but you would have an answer to why the copper, which could come from oil cooler, dont know for sure.

I could definitely do that, it's a great idea. I might try another run of mobil 1 0w-40 as it has low amounts of moly, but seems to be highly recommended here and bitog anyway. My run of mobil 1 was not accurately moly amounts as I added some lubeguard to boost it.

 

[Burla]

I meant on the known group of hpl users where the wear is as a group. Again, wear numbers does not have anything to do with the quality of the oil. In high performance oils they are full of stuff that creates some wear but also gives much protection, from the abrasiveness of detergents, high aw stuff that are also used in break in products, and even esters that can possibly creates "good" wear. You don't stop metal from banging, but you can put a plate or film on it, which will both stop wear and create wear, plenty of paper on that.

On a side note, one reason why older amsoil ss was a unicorn, famously has low wear and high oci's.

 

[knightjp]

I just don't have the guts to try that on a hemi. Been here too long, read the reports etc. But yeah many people without knowledge of the tick would say I'm just throwing perfectly good oil out at 7700 kms.

Learned the hard way that keeping the OCIs short is the key to a long lasting Hemi engine. I'd only take Redline or something like HPL to 7000kms but for the other oil combos, I keep it at 5000kms.
I recall seeing a couple of veterans using whatever like 5w30 or 10w40 or their engines and keeping the OCIs short like they used to do on their old vehicles in the 60s and 70s. They've never faced issues. So, I guess we can learn a thing or two from that.

 

[HEMIMANN]

I thought auto companies ditched copper tubing in coolers for all aluminum a couple decades back? That's what I remember for the auto engines we used in generators.

 

[Burla]

From Blackstone...

Copper: Brass or bronze parts, copper bushings, bearings, oil coolers.

 

[TunaFresh]

Good amount of moly in HPL.

 

[CanuckRam1313]

Hot out the labs, Folks!
Just in from Blackstone; VOA for HPL SC 0W30.
I've included my recent VOA for RL HP 5W30 for comparison.
Thoughts?

 

[Burla]

Hot out the labs, Folks!
Just in from Blackstone; VOA for HPL SC 0W30.
I've included my recent VOA for RL HP 5W30 for comparison.
Thoughts?

My first thought is you are awesome, thanks.

Looks real good but holy calcium. With mag 1,000 why CA 2700? It's not what I would have done, but a long interval oil for sure. I think the issue is with great moly like that I'm not sure you want a long oci, high moly kinda puts you in the position where you want to be less then 15k miles on the oil, but clearly this oil is built similar to amsoil 25k oils back in the day. Tons of potential for the hemi, I would not run that in a di. Visc looks good too.

 

[Burla]

Even at 1ppm like I been saying I think the tin and alum is related. No proof just a theory.

 

[JHoward]

Hot out the labs, Folks!
Just in from Blackstone; VOA for HPL SC 0W30.
I've included my recent VOA for RL HP 5W30 for comparison.
Thoughts?

So, on your last oil report using Red Line, you had 7ppm of tin, so all in actuality, your HEMI was at 1 ppm on tin?

 

[JHoward]

I had thought that that I would send in an v I r g i n sample of the Red Line 5w/30 that I recently purchased to Blackstone Labs for analysis, mainly to see the tin ppm.

But, I'm now sure after seeing @CanuckRam1313"s very recent report back from Blackstone Labs, the tin is still present but isn't going to hamper me from not using it.

 

[CanuckRam1313]

My first thought is you are awesome, thanks.

Looks real good but holy calcium. With mag 1,000 why CA 2700? It's not what I would have done, but a long interval oil for sure. I think the issue is with great moly like that I'm not sure you want a long oci, high moly kinda puts you in the position where you want to be less then 15k miles on the oil, but clearly this oil is built similar to amsoil 25k oils back in the day. Tons of potential for the hemi, I would not run that in a di. Visc looks good too.

Glad to help us all out!

I'm going to keep my first OCI at 5,000 miles so it's inline with my previous ones using RL HP 5W30.

This way we can see a true UOA comparison between the two titan super oils..lol.

If it comes back favorable, I may push it to 6,000 mile OCI's as a maximum.

I was impressed with this VOA of HPL SC 0W30!

 

[CanuckRam1313]

So, on your last oil report using Red Line, you had 7ppm of tin, so all in actuality, your HEMI was at 1 ppm on tin?

Looking so, Brother.