Buying a (new for me) used 2500 diesel

[Andrew1177]

Hello I'm looking for some insight. I'm in the market for a 2500 HD disel and would like to know if anyone has any pointers or knowledge of what to look for or to stay away from. Me and my wife are in the market for a 5th wheel travel trailer which means I get a new truck. Any advice would be greatly appreciated about possible years to look for or to stay away from.

 

[MADDOG]

You may find that the GVWR of a 2500 diesel truck has a limited payload capacity. I'd find one of the many towing/weight capacity estimation guides online to determine if a 2500 or a 3500 would be a better choice for towing a 5vr based on the truck's estimated GVWR of the truck when loaded including pin weight. You can find the truck empty weight, max GVWR and max GCVWR data online. Here's how:

I googled the following search term:

2017 Ram 2500 towing capacity chart

Here is the towing capacity chart the search found. This is truck specific data from Ram:

http://www.rambodybuilder.com/2017/docs/ram/rammlup2500.pdf

I had a 4th gen Ram 2500 diesel and I decided to go with a smaller 5vr than planned because of the towing capacity limitations of the truck. You might want to look a 3500 trucks depending on how much that 5vr weights.

I had minimal issues with the 2017. I had a DPF system fault and a driveline vibration issue but that was all sorted fairly quickly. I was very happy with the truck and it was one of the more comfortable vehicles I"ve owned.

I'd stay away from the early 4th gens (2009 - 2011) as they had some new design/new model issues. By 2012 those things had been addressed.

Stay away from trucks that have had the DPF system removed unless you know who did the work and that you trust them.

Beyond that just inspect any truck you find like you would any used vehicle. Look for a used vehicle inspection list to use and check the service history on the truck.

 

[mtnrider]

For a 5th wheel tower I'd be looking at a 3500 for starters, And maybe even a dually depending on how big a 5th wheel you are looking at. You really need to nail that down first.

Not sure what your budget is or what years you are thinking but I'd only be looking at 14'-18' and 21+ for the years. 19-20 still have the lingering CP4 fuel pump issue that has not been resolved yet.
I would also avoid lifted and tuned/deleted trucks as well. I know some will disagree but more often then not you are going to inherit someone else's problem child they just dumped.

And lastly, it's the absolute worst time to be buying a truck right now, you are going to way over pay so if you can wait a year I would.

.

 

[Andrew1177]

Thanks for all the info and things I read to my understanding was the 2500 was capable of towing 20k. And budget wise I'm trying to stay 50k or less and I have found some good deals for the 2500 between 30k and 42k all with upgraded packages and anywhere from 100k miles to 200k, im trying to stay around the 100k mile point. My concern with looking at the 3500 is only price. Trailer wise we are looking at 38 to 40 foot 5th wheel.

 

[MADDOG]

If you figure pin weight to the hitch in the bed, about 20% of the trailer GVW, that's too much trailer for a 2500. You shoujld figure your weights for the truck and trailer, add the pin weight, gear (hitch, tool box, etc...) in the truck, luggage, fuel & passengers for a total truck weight.

I suspect with that trailer you will exceed the GVWR & GCVWR of the truck.

 

[ramffml]

Thanks for all the info and things I read to my understanding was the 2500 was capable of towing 20k. And budget wise I'm trying to stay 50k or less and I have found some good deals for the 2500 between 30k and 42k all with upgraded packages and anywhere from 100k miles to 200k, im trying to stay around the 100k mile point. My concern with looking at the 3500 is only price. Trailer wise we are looking at 38 to 40 foot 5th wheel.

It can "tow 20k" (not really, don't think any 2500 is rated to pull 20k pounds but lets pretend you found one), but it cannot carry the weight of a 20k 5w. So there are 2 limits you need to worry about, what you can pull and what you can carry.

A 5w typically transfers 20 to 25 percent of the weight of the trailer, onto the back of your truck.
A travel trailer (tow behind) typically transfers 10 to 15 percent to your truck
A boat typically transfers 5 to 10 percent.

So depending on the weight of what you're pulling, and the style of the trailer, your trailer cannot actually be towed behind a 2500 even though its rated to pull 20k pounds.

A 20k 5w transfers 4000+ pounds to your truck
A 20k travel trailer transfers 2000+ pounds to your truck
A 20k boat transfers 1000+ pounds to your truck

That's why we're saying you can't pull a 20k 5th wheel, because you'd exceed the second limit, payload, which you also need to stay under.

A 2500/cummins has far less payload (what you can carry) than a 2500/hemi. Which means there may be cases where you can actually tow a trailer with a 6.4 that you cannot tow with a diesel, because the diesel weighs like 800 pounds more than the hemi does, really biting into the payload of your truck.

A 3500/cummins is the better option, or a 2500/hemi, but keep in mind with the hemi the "what you can tow" is significantly less than the diesel.

For a large 5w like you're thinking of, the 3500/cummins is really the best bet. For a smaller 5w weighing 12,000 or less, you can probably get away with a 2500/hemi.

 

[Andrew1177]

It can "tow 20k" (not really, don't think any 2500 is rated to pull 20k pounds but lets pretend you found one), but it cannot carry the weight of a 20k 5w. So there are 2 limits you need to worry about, what you can pull and what you can carry.

A 5w typically transfers 20 to 25 percent of the weight of the trailer, onto the back of your truck.
A travel trailer (tow behind) typically transfers 10 to 15 percent to your truck
A boat typically transfers 5 to 10 percent.

So depending on the weight of what you're pulling, and the style of the trailer, your trailer cannot actually be towed behind a 2500 even though its rated to pull 20k pounds.

A 20k 5w transfers 4000+ pounds to your truck
A 20k travel trailer transfers 2000+ pounds to your truck
A 20k boat transfers 1000+ pounds to your truck

That's why we're saying you can't pull a 20k 5th wheel, because you'd exceed the second limit, payload, which you also need to stay under.

A 2500/cummins has far less payload (what you can carry) than a 2500/hemi. Which means there may be cases where you can actually tow a trailer with a 6.4 that you cannot tow with a diesel, because the diesel weighs like 800 pounds more than the hemi does, really biting into the payload of your truck.

A 3500/cummins is the better option, or a 2500/hemi, but keep in mind with the hemi the "what you can tow" is significantly less than the diesel.

For a large 5w like you're thinking of, the 3500/cummins is really the best bet. For a smaller 5w weighing 12,000 or less, you can probably get away with a 2500/hemi.

Thank you for the info I figured as much, this was just random information I was given by a few people that now I know didn't know what they were completely talking about. And I have found a few with the larger hemi but I don't want to go gas I want diesel for the towing ability. My issue mainly is there is far less 3500 in my price range, I have plenty of ford f350 but I don't want to go down that road. More than likely I will have to step down the trailer size. The 3500 close to my proce point have all been 250k miles or higher and I want to get less than that

 

[dhay13]

With most 5th wheel travel trailers you will be over payload with a 2500 Cummins. In reality to stay legal with a 2500 Cummins you are maxed out at around 10,000-12,000 with a bumper pull trailer and maybe 10,000 with a 5th wheel. Can it do it? yes. Do people do it? Yes. Are they legal? Not likely.
When you have a trailer connected and the truck fully loaded with you and passengers, coffee cups, etc, your 4 truck tires cannot weigh over 10,000lbs. I have the 6.4 and towed a 9300lb bumper pull that had 1100lbs tongue weight. There were 3 of us in the truck and a few tools in the back. My truck weighed 9100lbs (including the 1100lb tongue weight). The Cummins is about 900lbs more than the 6.4. Had I had a Cummins I would have been right at my legal limit. Same with my sons 8100lb TT. He has the same truck as me and had it loaded up pretty heavy. His weighed 9000lbs with his 1000lb tongue weight. Had that been a Cummins we would have been right at max legal weight and it was just me and him in the truck, although he did have about another 500lbs of stuff in it.
Try finding a 3500 if you can. And I'm not a fan of the Ford or Chevy but they do have heavier payloads so you have more room for that weight. My payload is 2973lbs. A typical 2500 Cummins has about 2100lbs payload. You can find the payload on the yellow sticker inside the drivers door jamb. Also, I believe Ford 250's have a GVWR of 10,500lbs so you get an extra 500lbs of payload right there.

Like was mentioned above, what you can 'legally' tow with a 2500 Cummins you can tow with a 2500 6.4. It will work harder and be harder on fuel but will be legal. Anything heavier than the 6.4 can comfortably tow and you are looking at 3500 territory. Also, keep in mind that there are also axle limits. Mine are 6500lbs rear and 5500lbs front. A 20,000lb 5th wheel will likely put you over the rear axle limits too. I think different years have different axle limits too but these can also be found in the drivers door jamb on the whitish sticker. I think they are listed as GAWR front and GAWR rear?

EDIT: yeah this says trailer weight is 8160lbs but there is 1100lbs of tongue weight that is sitting on my hitch and being held by the truck. Notice my front and rear axles equal 9100lbs. With the Cummins I'd be very close or over that 10,000lb limit

Here is my CAT scale slip from the 9300lb TT:

 

[SouthTexan]

I have been pulling a 14k 5ver with my 2500 for almost 8 years now. I am not concerned with the manufactruer payload ratings just as long as I am not over my axle ratings which I am well below with my trailer. The manufacturer's rating is only for EPA and NHTSA truck classifications. It has no legal bearing whatsoever. Only the GVWR you register your truck for has any legal ramifications in most if not all states.

In fact, my company de-rates and up-rates truck GVWR's all the time in the medium-heavy duty world so fleet customers can save money on tax, registration, and additional licensing fees. Most non-commercial truck owners think those ratings are the law but they are not. Far from it, and axle rating has more bearing than GVWR's in most regulations.

 

[Pttrader]

You didn't say what type of 2500 Cummins you are looking to buy?
A 2500 in a 2 wheel drive, standard cab, long box will have about a 3000# payload vs a 4x4 crew cab which might only have a 2000# payload.
My 37ft fifth wheel had a 10500# shipping weight. Loaded, its over 12k.

Anyway, you can find lots of 5th wheels that weigh under 10k and are long as 39 feet. Some are called half ton 5th wheels. Typically they don't have a front slide which reduces the pin weight.
With my 6.4 it labors up the steep hills so I just take it slow. The gas mileage on my last trip was only 7.6mpg and the fasted I went was 65mph. I wouldn't mind having the Cummins, but that won't happen for several years.

 

[Gr8bawana]

I have been pulling a 14k 5ver with my 2500 for almost 8 years now. I am not concerned with the manufactruer payload ratings just as long as I am not over my axle ratings which I am well below with my trailer. The manufacturer's rating is only for EPA and NHTSA truck classifications. It has no legal bearing whatsoever. Only the GVWR you register your truck for has any legal ramifications in most if not all states.

In fact, my company de-rates and up-rates truck GVWR's all the time in the medium-heavy duty world so fleet customers can save money on tax, registration, and additional licensing fees. Most non-commercial truck owners think those ratings are the law but they are not. Far from it, and axle rating has more bearing than GVWR's in most regulations.

^^This^^
Next time you drive down the highway you will notice that probably 90% of the 5ers are being towed with a 2500 of some kind.
You're looking at 2500's because that is what your budget dictates. My wife and I did the same thing when we bought our 2500.
Go for it and don't listen to the payload police that pop up here all the time telling you it can't or shouldn't be done.

 

[SeppW]

For heavy tow, can't beat a 3500 SRW or dually. I can't imagine any 5th wheel is not going to be heavy. Big bucks though, especially if outfitted with 4WD and diesel

 

[Firebird]

On one of my last camping trips, the guy next to me was towing his 43’ 5th wheel with a 2500 Cummins Bighorn. That truck has about a 2000 pound payload, and when he hitched up to leave, the rear of that truck was dragging! I would not have wanted to be that guy on the highway.

 

[jejb]

I have been pulling a 14k 5ver with my 2500 for almost 8 years now. I am not concerned with the manufactruer payload ratings just as long as I am not over my axle ratings which I am well below with my trailer. The manufacturer's rating is only for EPA and NHTSA truck classifications. It has no legal bearing whatsoever. Only the GVWR you register your truck for has any legal ramifications in most if not all states.

In fact, my company de-rates and up-rates truck GVWR's all the time in the medium-heavy duty world so fleet customers can save money on tax, registration, and additional licensing fees. Most non-commercial truck owners think those ratings are the law but they are not. Far from it, and axle rating has more bearing than GVWR's in most regulations.

Yep. The 2500 will still pull as well as a non-High Output 3500. The only difference between a 2500 and 3500 is a bit heavier suspension in the 3500, the dually option and the option of the High Output Cummins motor. The 10K limit of the 2500 is not real, it's a govt thing. If the govt changed that to 12k next year, Ram would not likely have to do anything to the 2500 to get it there except hang a different label on the door frame.

As far as the being legal thing, I don't know that much about that end of it. Maybe there are there examples of folks getting in legal trouble or insurance claims not paid because of it. But I can't think of any threads here about that happening.

To your original question, I think it's good advice to avoid the 19-20's, as already mentioned. And to wait if at all possible. I bought my 18 CTD 2500 a little over a year ago. It's a mega rambox Laramie with every factory option on it. Certified pre-owned with 14,000 on it for about $40K. So the idea of paying $50k for one with 100K miles on it sounds like a ripoff to me. So if you can hold off and maybe widen your search, you could save a LOT of money.

 

[ramffml]

Go for it and don't listen to the payload police that pop up here all the time telling you it can't or shouldn't be done.

I'm a card-carrying member; and your advice is completely nuts. OP is obviously new to towing, last thing you should do is recommend he overload his truck.

 

[SouthTexan]

I'm a card-carrying member; and your advice is completely nuts. OP is obviously new to towing, last thing you should do is recommend he overload his truck.

It is actually not completely nuts when you actually know where the GVWRs come from. Our current vehicle class system that the EPA and NHTSA use for the regulations and states use for taxes has been the same since the 70's. Of course, vehicles have changed since then, but the weight limits of these classes have not.

The max GVWR that the 2500s are(class 2B) has a max GVWR of 10k lbs which means that even though the 2500 only has a combined axle rating 500 lbs lower than the 3500 srw, its max GVWR is capped out at 10k which is almost 2k less than the 3500 srw. Everything on these two trucks is exactly the same besides the rear suspension.

In my industry, we change vehicle GVWR's all the time to save our fleet customers money. In fact, Ford even has an option to derate the F350 to a 10k GVWR (and lower payload) so that fleets don't have to pay more in taxes/registration or have to have CDL drivers that come with GVWR's over 10k in many states. They also have a package for the F250 that will give you the exact same suspension as the F350 so it is basically an F350 with an F250 badge and GVWR.

Ram does things in a different way. Instead of messing around with GVWR options to cater to fleets that want a 10k max GVWR yet want a capable truck, they just beef up the 2500 to where the axle/suspension ratings are just a hair lower than the 3500.

 

[dhay13]

And McDonalds never thought they'd get sued by a lady spilling coffee on herself. The numbers are there for a reason and if these are exceeded you are potentially opening yourself up to litigation. Even if you win your case you will still lose. Not worth it in my opinion but that's me. I'm not saying the 2500 Cummins isn't capable, just that you may run into issues if something goes wrong

 

[SouthTexan]

Again, the manufacturer's GVWR ratings are for the manufacturers to comply with EPA and NHTSA vehicles classifications regulations and bear no weight legally. What does is the GVWR you register your truck for to the state.

For example, I can legally register my truck with a GVWR higher than 10k, even though I have a 2500, and can legally carry more weight than the manufacturer's rating. If someone were to sue(which they would do if it were your fault regardless) then they would also have to sue the state for registering my truck for the higher GVWR.

I understand that people fear what they don't know and many are ignorant of the law and truck class regulations so they err on the side of caution. I know the laws and regulations surrounding them because I have been in the industry heavily dictated by them for over two decades so I don't need to err on the side of caution.

 

[ramffml]

@SouthTexan the point I was making, is that "don't let anybody tell you not exceed the rating of your truck" is completely nuts; you don't say that to somebody who is a v!rgin (can I use that word) to towing.

Guys new to towing shouldn't be pushing the limit of their truck.

 

[jejb]

@SouthTexan the point I was making, is that "don't let anybody tell you not exceed the rating of your truck" is completely nuts; you don't say that to somebody who is a v!rgin (can I use that word) to towing.

Guys new to towing shouldn't be pushing the limit of their truck.

But 10K is not the real limit of the truck.

However, if I were in the market for a truck knowing I'd be hauling a 5er with it, I'd get the 1 ton version. Not really much more capable in non-dually form, but good for peace of mind, if nothing else.