Correct descent of a slope

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DanGab

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Hello, I am the happy owner of a Ram 1500 Laramie from 2019 with Hemi 5.7 engine. In my country (Romania) there are several such trucks, I don't know anyone to exchange informations...My model does not have the HDC function and my question is about the correct descent of a slope without using the brake pedal; if the slope is covered with mud or snow and the brake pedal starts to slip and I can no longer control it. I approach the descent like this:I put the gearbox in manual mode, select 4L and lock the differential. The truck descends correctly in the automatic engine brake only a few meters, then it picks up the speed and I can no longer control it; if you press the brake you lose control and slip due to its weight. Before buying RAM I had an Amarok and such slopes did not create any problems with HDC function...The Dodge dealer from Romania claims that they cannot order the HDC module unless the team in the factory is like that.
Can you help me with any advice? Thanks
 

TestPilot57

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I think you've done the best you can with the options available.

Here in the USA, I have noticed that in ANY hill descent, even at 30-40 MPH, the amount of engine braking is inconsistent at best.
 

GTyankee

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That is when you manually shift your automatic transmission
 
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DanGab

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I think you've done the best you can with the options available.

Here in the USA, I have noticed that in ANY hill descent, even at 30-40 MPH, the amount of engine braking is inconsistent at best.
it is possible that the engine brake worked correctly on my old Amarok just because I had a diesel engine?
 

Dean2

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Gas will not give you the same amount of engine braking as a diesel will. That said, if you put the truck in 4L, do NOT lock the differential, and select 1st gear, you should be able to hold the truck under a couple of KLMs per hour just using what engine braking there is. You say it gets going too fast, what speed is it running up to, and why will gentle application of the brake from the very start not assist with holding your speed down.
 

TestPilot57

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it is possible that the engine brake worked correctly on my old Amarok just because I had a diesel engine?
Diesel will certainly be different than gas.

What I have noticed with both my Rams (2015 and 2020) is that, when going downhill, you can downshift to hold a gear, and sometimes it immediately lets off fuel and you can feel a holding back. But at others, it just revs the engine at first, with very little (if at all) braking, until, several seconds later, you feel the real effect of being OFF the throttle.

Frankly this is one of my biggest gripes with the Ram - fuel management/control. In addition to the above, almost every single time when cruising at highway speed (50-70 MPH), when letting off the gas there is a slight burst (sounds like a "burp", and you can actually feel a forward ****** of power) of throttle. Totally baffling when you're trying to SLOW down and there's a bump in power. Actually seems a bit unsafe, although it's not enough (to date) to cause any notable actual acceleration.
 
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DanGab

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Diesel will certainly be different than gas.
This was one of the expected answers because all my trucks were diesel except my new RAM :eek:)
What I have noticed with both my Rams (2015 and 2020) is that, when going downhill, you can downshift to hold a gear, and sometimes it immediately lets off fuel and you can feel a holding back.
That "holding back" it manifests itself at a much too high speed(aprox 15-20 km/h), unfortunately; this speed can be disastrous at a slope of 40-45% if it is covered with snow. The same snow-covered slope approached until this winter with the old Amarok did not create any problem for me, the engine brake kept the truck at 5km / h without me intervening by braking. My RAM makes the engine brake at 15-20 which is hugely risky for my road(it is about a 1 km long undeveloped road dug in the mountains that reaches my holiday home).
But at others, it just revs the engine at first, with very little (if at all) braking, until, several seconds later, you feel the real effect of being OFF the throttle.

Frankly this is one of my biggest gripes with the Ram - fuel management/control. In addition to the above, almost every single time when cruising at highway speed (50-70 MPH), when letting off the gas there is a slight burst (sounds like a "burp", and you can actually feel a forward ****** of power) of throttle. Totally baffling when you're trying to SLOW down and there's a bump in power. Actually seems a bit unsafe, although it's not enough (to date) to cause any notable actual acceleration.
I will try snow chains or walk on it when it snows :eek:))
 

Dean2

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If your truck is getting up to 20 Klms an hour in low range first gear then you aren't really in low range. You would blow the motor at that speed due to excessive RPM. On flat ground, put transmission in Neutral, foot on brake, switich to 4 low. Manually select 1st gear, you will run out of revs by about 4 klm/h depending on which rear gears and transmission you have.
 
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DanGab

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If your truck is getting up to 20 Klms an hour in low range first gear then you aren't really in low range. You would blow the motor at that speed due to excessive RPM. On flat ground, put transmission in Neutral, foot on brake, switich to 4 low. Manually select 1st gear, you will run out of revs by about 4 klm/h depending on which rear gears and transmission you have.
Maybe I exaggerated with the 15-20km/h, I feel like a schoolboy caught by the teacher with an unfinished homework...I didn't think the declared speed mattered, it was just an appreciation; but I am convinced that the truck goes down by at least 10km/h and at least 5000rmp if I do not intervene by applying the foot brake. Next weekend when I go to the cottage I will also pay attention to the speed displayed when descending. I am convinced that I set the 4L mode correctly because the display also confirms this to me:cool:. I will be careful next time from what speed the engine starts to speed excessively and leaves the initial range of maximum 5kms / h with which to start the descent. Maybe in Canada there are milder hills than the Carpathian Mountains from Europe... :33::pT hanks Dean2 for your time
 

Doug Ram

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Thanks to Lake Ontario, we get 10 to 15 feet of snow a year and the last half mile of (paved) road to my house is so steep that in the best of weather 18 wheel trucks can't get enough traction to go up. As an added bonus there are two hairpins and the road is improperly banked to the side. It's marked 10 mph. The large boat marina at the bottom has a tractor that pulls the large trucks (that ignored the warnings) back up the steeps.
Anyway...
We've found that using low gear and locking 4 wheel drive going down in snow is dangerous. We take the truck out of 4wd, put it in neutral and ride the antilock brakes (at creeper speeds) down the hill. It gives you more control. The anti-lock system will let up the brakes to prevent skidding. And if the antilock brakes don't kick in, you can let up the brakes to end a skid. Locking things up with 4 wheel drive and/or a locking differential forces wheels to spin at the same speed, so one of them will easily overwhelm the very little traction that the snow allows, initiating a skid. Obviously you can't ride the brakes for very long or very often.

The bottom line is using low gear, four wheel and/or locking differentials for engine braking locks the 4 wheels together forces them to spin at the same speed so that one of them will spin if there is a curve or difference in traction. Plus you lose the flexibility of reducing braking quickly when a skid starts.
 

Dean2

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Thanks to Lake Ontario, we get 10 to 15 feet of snow a year and the last half mile of (paved) road to my house is so steep that in the best of weather 18 wheel trucks can't get enough traction to go up. As an added bonus there are two hairpins and the road is improperly banked to the side. It's marked 10 mph. The large boat marina at the bottom has a tractor that pulls the large trucks (that ignored the warnings) back up the steeps.
Anyway...
We've found that using low gear and locking 4 wheel drive going down in snow is dangerous. We take the truck out of 4wd, put it in neutral and ride the antilock brakes (at creeper speeds) down the hill. It gives you more control. The anti-lock system will let up the brakes to prevent skidding. And if the antilock brakes don't kick in, you can let up the brakes to end a skid. Locking things up with 4 wheel drive and/or a locking differential forces wheels to spin at the same speed, so one of them will easily overwhelm the very little traction that the snow allows, initiating a skid. Obviously you can't ride the brakes for very long or very often.

The bottom line is using low gear, four wheel and/or locking differentials for engine braking locks the 4 wheels together forces them to spin at the same speed so that one of them will spin if there is a curve or difference in traction. Plus you lose the flexibility of reducing braking quickly when a skid starts.
Have you ever tried using the hill descent control feature on your truck?
 

pacofortacos

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In the snow here going down hill, I find much better control just putting the truck in neutral and gently ride the brake down.
No power to any of the wheels to fight the brakes.
Since I live on top of a hill, I have been doing it this way with every vehicle I have owned for decades - all give better control in neutral vs. in gear.
 

Doug Ram

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Have you ever tried using the hill descent control feature on your truck?
I purposely did NOT order it on my current truck. I had it on my Durango, Xterra and 4Runner and it never worked well. The trucks' transfer cases had to be in 4low, which doesn't allow the tires to spin at different speeds. The system overheated the brakes when used for too long a distance. The Toyota's was the worst, the system would overheat and suddenly turn the system off. The Xterra's system was dependent on a problematic electronic locking rear differential.

I didn't have it on my Nissan Frontier, and that's when I learned that riding the brakes while creeping in neutral was the safest way to descend the hill on ice and snow.

If you are going down an extremely steep icy slope you MUST creep down the slope at the slowest possible speed possible. Once committed you can't stop. Not without skidding. You will skid some. You correct the skid only by releasing the brakes and steering. The anti-lock brakes will do this above something like 3-5 mph. But below that speed, the driver has to be able to quickly release the brakes and steer to get the vehicle straightened. If the truck's transfer case is in low gear this is impossible as the engine is always trying to brake all the wheels the same amount and have them spin at the same rate. If you need to go around something, the wheels must turn at different speeds (the differential must be unlocked). And you can't get a transfer case out of 4 low unless the truck is stopped and in neutral. That's impossible to do when going down a steep icy slope.

My method is simple:
Transfer case is usually in Auto, which is where I leave it.
I brake to a stop at the top of the steep slope.
I put the truck in neutral using the automatic gear shift knob on the dash.
I reduce brake pressure until the truck starts to roll (from gravity) and I keep the speed to barely moving.
The antilock brakes usually activate when a wheels skids.
If they don't, I reduce brake pressure until I can steer. Then I slowly reapply the brakes.
I don't try to stop the truck on the slope. I just try to keep the speed as low as possible without stopping.
The goal is to go down the center of the road, stay out of the ditch and off the cliff.
 
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LouM

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I purposely did order it on my current truck. I had it on my Durango, Xterra and 4Runner and it never worked well. The trucks' transfer cases had to be in 4low, which doesn't allow the tires to spin at different speeds. The system overheated the brakes when used for too long a distance. The Toyota's was the worst, the system would overheat and suddenly turn the system off. The Xterra's system was dependent on a problematic electronic locking rear differential.

I didn't have it on my Nissan Frontier, and that's when I learned that riding the brakes while creeping in neutral was the safest way to descend the hill on ice and snow.

If you are going down an extremely steep icy slope you MUST creep down the slope at the slowest possible speed possible. Once committed you can't stop. Not without skidding. You will skid some. You correct the skid only by releasing the brakes and steering. The anti-lock brakes will do this above something like 3-5 mph. But below that speed, the driver has to be able to quickly release the brakes and steer to get the vehicle straightened. If the truck's transfer case is in low gear this is impossible as the engine is always trying to brake all the wheels the same amount and have them spin at the same rate. If you need to go around something, the wheels must turn at different speeds (the differential must be unlocked). And you can't get a transfer case out of 4 low unless the truck is stopped and in neutral. That's impossible to do when going down a steep icy slope.

My method is simple:
Transfer case is usually in Auto, which is where I leave it.
I brake to a stop at the top of the steep slope.
I put the truck in neutral using the automatic gear shift knob on the dash.
I reduce brake pressure until the truck starts to roll (from gravity) and I keep the speed to barely moving.
The antilock brakes usually activate when a wheels skids.
If they don't, I reduce brake pressure until I can steer. Then I slowly reapply the brakes.
I don't try to stop the truck on the slope. I just try to keep the speed as low as possible without stopping.
The goal is to go down the center of the road, stay out of the ditch and off the cliff.
My method is different then yours, I travel down a 25% slope everyday (my driveway) with a switchback towards the bottom of it.
Your method is the one I will use with 2wd vehicles, not on one with a low range.

With 4wd and a low range if I am heading down for some reason before I've sanded, which would be possible during an ice storm.
I'll start in low range first gear and seeing as how this truck has the e-locker rear that will be engaged and I'll start creeping down I don't know if I will use the Hill Decent Control or not, I may.
I did use the HDC a couple of times this summer to see how the truck behaved using it.
I almost never use the auto on the transfer case onless the road is patchy snow covered,
completly snow covered it'll be high loc.
The tires do not have to be independent going down a steep grade,
trusting your brakes to be perfectly balanced and the traction surface to be uniform is'nt going to happen.
If you need to turn while going down hill your front wheels should pull you in the desired direction anfd the rear will follow.

It will be interesting this winter as it will be my first with this newest style transfer case and RAM programing,
my 15 was terrible, that t-case went to 2wd when you put the truck in park and didn't stay locked up in loc and
also didn't provide any engine braking thru the t-case.
Untill I added the switch kit to make the electric clutch part atay fully engaged while it was on.
 

Doug Ram

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My method is different then yours, I travel down a 25% slope everyday (my driveway) with a switchback towards the bottom of it.
Your method is the one I will use with 2wd vehicles, not on one with a low range.

With 4wd and a low range if I am heading down for some reason before I've sanded, which would be possible during an ice storm.
I'll start in low range first gear and seeing as how this truck has the e-locker rear that will be engaged and I'll start creeping down I don't know if I will use the Hill Decent Control or not, I may.
I did use the HDC a couple of times this summer to see how the truck behaved using it.
I almost never use the auto on the transfer case onless the road is patchy snow covered,
completly snow covered it'll be high loc.
The tires do not have to be independent going down a steep grade,
trusting your brakes to be perfectly balanced and the traction surface to be uniform is'nt going to happen.
If you need to turn while going down hill your front wheels should pull you in the desired direction anfd the rear will follow.

It will be interesting this winter as it will be my first with this newest style transfer case and RAM programing,
my 15 was terrible, that t-case went to 2wd when you put the truck in park and didn't stay locked up in loc and
also didn't provide any engine braking thru the t-case.
Untill I added the switch kit to make the electric clutch part atay fully engaged while it was on.
Our slope is a half mile more than 25% at its steepest where the switchbacks are. We joke that it would be a nice black diamond ski trail. If I put it in 4 low and lock the differential on deep snow and ice, the vehicles goes into a sideways skid where its banked. Fortunately it's banked towards the ditch and not the cliff! I tell visitors to park at the top and I come and get them in one of our snow tire equipped vehicles. Ironically, we've found my wife's Toyota Solara with its Nokia studded snow tires all around and front wheel drive is easiest to control going DOWN.

One of the things you learn in mountainous snow country: 4 wheel drive helps you get going but it doesn't help you stop. If it did you'd never see an SUV in the ditch in a snowstorm.

The other thing you learn is that putting 4 snow tires on a vehicle makes a huge difference. I'm a ski instructor and all of my fellow instructors have them. Even the guy who can walk to work. My truck has winter tires cause I gotta get to work. And since my wife and kid work at jobs where they gotta be at work, their cars have them too.
 

LouM

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I'm surprised that your Toyota Solara with its Nokia studded snow tires makes it up such a grade.
Certainly will not disagree with you about the tires my truck and my wifes Jeep are all shod with studded Nokians.
Been running those for several years now, used to run the Cooper Discovery studded snows.
At one time when my kids were at home I had 6 vehicles to keep ir with and keep tires on.
Glad to be down to two highway vehicles and two tractors,
now if you wish to talk traction here it is;
she gets a bit more then the pickup with studded tires especially when I put the front chains on;)
\IMG_20151228_135649971.jpg
 

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Doug Ram

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I'm surprised that your Toyota Solara with its Nokia studded snow tires makes it up such a grade.
Certainly will not disagree with you about the tires my truck and my wifes Jeep are all shod with studded Nokians.
Been running those for several years now, used to run the Cooper Discovery studded snows.
At one time when my kids were at home I had 6 vehicles to keep ir with and keep tires on.
Glad to be down to two highway vehicles and two tractors,
now if you wish to talk traction here it is;
she gets a bit more then the pickup with studded tires especially when I put the front chains on;)
\View attachment 478846
Yeah, the Solara's great winter performance was a real surprise to me as well. We had been storing it during the winter and driving a 4wd Suzuki SX4 with studded snows. Then the Suzuki was totaled so I broke out the Solara and put 4 studded tires on it. I discovered that with studded snows, the Solara punches far above its "snow" weight. It will go up that hill as long as the snow isn't deeper than its clearance height. Turn off the traction control, let it rip. Not as easily as anything with 4WD of course. The Solara is a well balanced car with a powerful engine and great handling.

This isn't an every day thing we do. Normally the town plows our road, several times a day in fact. But there are times when the snow is coming down hard and blowing that you'd have to plow it every half hour to keep it clean. Our town highway department does a great job clearing all the steep little roads. They have several "smaller" 2500 and 3500 trucks that are equipped with plow blades on both sides and the front. They can clear our road from "curb" to "curb with one pass.
 

TestPilot57

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We've found that using low gear and locking 4 wheel drive going down in snow is dangerous. We take the truck out of 4wd, put it in neutral and ride the antilock brakes (at creeper speeds) down the hill. It gives you more control. The anti-lock system will let up the brakes to prevent skidding.
Even decades before anti-lock brakes were thought of (Ok, maybe thought of, but not generally available) I learned from my Dad - we had a moderately steep driveway - to be in neutral when going down. ESPECIALLY when backing down (old days, when "all" cars were front engine, rear wheel drive).
 

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With a 2wd and an automatic transmission yes it will help,
with a low range and 4wd not so much.
The old carburated cars would push so much power thru the driveline that the fronts would lock up with the rears still pushing or pullin.
 
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DanGab

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Thanks to Lake Ontario, we get 10 to 15 feet of snow a year and the last half mile of (paved) road to my house is so steep that in the best of weather 18 wheel trucks can't get enough traction to go up. As an added bonus there are two hairpins and the road is improperly banked to the side. It's marked 10 mph. The large boat marina at the bottom has a tractor that pulls the large trucks (that ignored the warnings) back up the steeps.
Anyway...
We've found that using low gear and locking 4 wheel drive going down in snow is dangerous. We take the truck out of 4wd, put it in neutral and ride the antilock brakes (at creeper speeds) down the hill. It gives you more control. The anti-lock system will let up the brakes to prevent skidding. And if the antilock brakes don't kick in, you can let up the brakes to end a skid. Locking things up with 4 wheel drive and/or a locking differential forces wheels to spin at the same speed, so one of them will easily overwhelm the very little traction that the snow allows, initiating a skid. Obviously you can't ride the brakes for very long or very often.

The bottom line is using low gear, four wheel and/or locking differentials for engine braking locks the 4 wheels together forces them to spin at the same speed so that one of them will spin if there is a curve or difference in traction. Plus you lose the flexibility of reducing braking quickly when a skid starts.
First of all, thank you for sharing your point of view with us in such detail. It seems that you also have daily situations worthy of maximum attention that will bring you enormous experience over time. When you said " The anti-lock system will let up the brakes to prevent skidding" you mean the famous ESP?
Your explanation is clear and I 100% agree, but I still don't understand why on a pure truck like RAM 1500 is not installed by default the HDC system, who only knew what to do and eliminated all the risks of skidding or losing control of speed ...I notice that you have a diesel engine, from my experience with the Amarok diesel it is easier to manage the descent down the slope. As a backup, I just bought a pair of snow chains from RUD because in Romania in the mountainous areas it started to snow.;)
 
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