Dodge/Ram/Dakota 4WD front drive discussion….

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corneileous

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Just curious how the front ends work on all the trucks as far back at least while they’ve not had any kind of manual spinning hubs or anything like that where are you can actually disconnect the front wheels from the axle shafts like I’m assuming you can on all the other truck brands.

Although I’ve never owned a heavy duty, I did drive a 2007 2500 with a Cummins as a work truck in the oil field but I don’t know if the front driveline was turning all the time even in 2wd or not and as far as all the other heavy duties from the second GEN‘s all the way up to the fifth GENs, I have no idea as well but at least my 96 Dakota, my 2004 Dakota, my 98 1/2 ton, my 2008 1/2 ton and my current 2018 1500 all had….. i’m pretty sure, anyways, the passenger side axle sleeve or something else in the differential in maybe the 98 ram and the 96 Dakota but I’m almost a hundred percent certain that in all of my trucks I’ve had, only the complete driver side front axle and the wheel half of the passenger side axle would turn with the truck was in 2wd.

I talked to a guy last night that has a 2012 ram 1 ton with a Cummins and I guess all of his front drive components turn even when his truck is in 2wd… I guess that’s just a little strange to me because the only time every front drive component is turning on my 2018 is when you actually have it in auto four-wheel-drive which would make sense but in something that doesn’t have auto four-wheel-drive, that doesn’t make any sense at all to design a truck like that. No wonder there’s manual hub kits for the heavy duty trucks that are built this way because I wouldn’t want all of my stuff to turn at the same time when I’m just two wheeling. That’s a lot of unnecessary wear and drag when your four-wheel-drive is not being used.
 
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Jeepwalker

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That's been the case for, what 30 years ..ha ha. The parts should be practically freewheeling with little to no weight/force/wear on them for a 2500, and certain Tradesman. Therefore those don't wear all that much. Other trucks use better CV axles that last a lot longer than u-joints did back in the old days. The idea is to keep the parts rotating and greases/lubes constantly flowing unlike in 'the old days' when front ends and axles would get rusty and stiff from lack of use. U-joints certainly didn't last the life of a vehicle back then. A lot of shops were engaged in u-joint replacement and that was expensive for an owner too. People hardly ever greased their front driveshafts either back then. and CERRTAINLY not the old double-cardin joint ball. I bought scores of pick-ups back in the day (when I used to deal in them) and the majority of them (in the 70's early 80's) would need a new driveshaft and often times u-joints.

I have almost 170k on my ram. Everything still seems tight up around the axles and driveshaft. My biggest concern (and yours) may be the Hemi engine, transmission or electronics.

Then there's the other issue, back in the 70's those few people/ranchers/companies who bought 4x4s knew how to use them (well, mostly). Once they proliferated you have all kinds of people who never bothered to read their manual and can't figure out how to use the 4x4 when they really DO need it. Or the hub knobs would get frozen/stuck/unmovable, etc. Wives would ask, "Wait, are they already locked or not?" People are lazy and don't want to get out to lock/unlock hubs. That was a big debate and common topic back then: was it worth it to have manual hubs and have to get out and engage or not? More and more drivers just didn't know how to use them (wives/kids, most guys) so better off for most vehicles to just making the components run all the time and last longer instead.

The point for the car company, first and foremost, is to sell the truck. How long do original owners actually keep a truck before they trade in or move up? Usually not long enough to wear out the front ends. The car companies probably figured out only a small percentage of owners cared and just stopped offering it. That's my guess.
 
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corneileous

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That's been the case for, what 30 years ..ha ha. The parts should be practically freewheeling with little to no weight/force/wear on them for a 2500, and certain Tradesman. Therefore those don't wear all that much. Other trucks use better CV axles that last a lot longer than u-joints did back in the old days. The idea is to keep the parts rotating and greases/lubes constantly flowing unlike in 'the old days' when front ends and axles would get rusty and stiff from lack of use. U-joints certainly didn't last the life of a vehicle back then. A lot of shops were engaged in u-joint replacement and that was expensive for an owner too. People hardly ever greased their front driveshafts either back then. and CERRTAINLY not the old double-cardin joint ball. I bought scores of pick-ups back in the day (when I used to deal in them) and the majority of them (in the 70's early 80's) would need a new driveshaft and often times u-joints.

I have almost 170k on my ram. Everything still seems tight up around the axles and driveshaft. My biggest concern (and yours) may be the Hemi engine, transmission or electronics.

Then there's the other issue, back in the 70's those few people/ranchers/companies who bought 4x4s knew how to use them (well, mostly). Once they proliferated you have all kinds of people who never bothered to read their manual and can't figure out how to use the 4x4 when they really DO need it. Or the hub knobs would get frozen/stuck/unmovable, etc. Wives would ask, "Wait, are they already locked or not?" People are lazy and don't want to get out to lock/unlock hubs. That was a big debate and common topic back then: was it worth it to have manual hubs and have to get out and engage or not? More and more drivers just didn't know how to use them (wives/kids, most guys) so better off for most vehicles to just making the components run all the time and last longer instead.

The point for the car company, first and foremost, is to sell the truck. How long do original owners actually keep a truck before they trade in or move up? Usually not long enough to wear out the front ends. The car companies probably figured out only a small percentage of owners cared and just stopped offering it. That's my guess.
Yeah that’s true, at least with our system that keeps everything turning and lubricated but as far as whether or not the manual says you’re supposed too, I’ve heard quite a few times over the years that if you do have a truck that’s got manual hubs that every once in a while you’re supposed to spin those in and drive the truck around for a couple days just to turn everything and keep it lubed so it doesn’t seize up.

But I don’t know if I’d go as far as to call it laziness though because it’s kinda nice not having to spin hubs in before you hit the muck but then again if the axle disconnect collar on the halftons and Dakotas was perhaps considered too weak for the HD’s then maybe manual hubs shoulda been considered for those trucks than leaving it all connected.

I don’t know about how bad it is on the heavy duty four-wheelers vs the 2wd’s but I’ve heard that on the 1500 trucks, if you spend an excessive amount of time unnecessarily driving around with your transfer case in auto four-wheel-drive if you have that option that it’s going to significantly reduce your mileage because apparently your mimicking the same exact operations of a three-quarter ton or 1 ton where everything turns all the time.

As far as whether or not my fuel economy is still suffering, all I know is I know a gal who had the same year pickup as my old one which was the 2008 I spoke about. Mine was the Laramie and hers was just an SLT or Sport but really, the only differences was a lot of the options and that hers was 2WD, mine was 4WD and with the identical Hemi’s, she claimed she could get 17, 18 mpg when the best I could ever get was close to 17 on a very good day. I don’t know about her but I ran the 89 octane in mine almost every single time so as far as if she was running that in hers, I don’t know, I just know I must’ve had a lot more drag than she did.
 

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It's not the avid 4wheelers who are lazy. They (guys like you) generally have a good understnanding how to use the 4x4 and if/when the hubs are locked in and out.

It's yer everyday driver in snowy or muddy weather and after a while (having been there) unless you had just looked prior to getting in, if you get to a certain patch and need to use it, you can't remember if you left the hubs locked 'in' or if another driver in the family rotated them one way or the other. So, essentially, you still needed to get out and check it out.

I've been in a couple (admittantly rare) situations where I had to make an evasive manouver into the median while towing a trailer to avoid a wreck or fallen load, or gotten into unexpected muck (like after a rain). In my case I was darn glad my tk had auto hubs bc I just pulled er into 4x4 while I still had momentum and was able to work my way out. I wouldn't have been able to get restarted if I had to stop, get out, and lock in the hubs. Same in the snow we drive in every winter.

But I hear your point and definitely see where you're coming from. I came from Toyotas and other trucks where I always had locking hubs. We used to debate about that stuff a lot with my buddies. And like you point out, it's still a topic of debate.

Your friend with the 2wd that got better fuel exonomy, didn't have axles, xfer case, front diff, driveshaft, etc. Maybe your 4x4 tk has 8 or 10 ply tires which are heavier ...and I wonder what the 2wd tk's gearing was? 2WDs always seem to get 1-2 mpg better.

Trucks have gotten so much better, the ride, features, they tend to last longer. The solution if you need to is to add free-wheeling hubs. Guys who lift their 1500's should really do this (where possible). They are introducing a lot more wear on their axles since the axles are now not running in a more or less strict horizontal fashion. They are always in a wear mode, every rotation. But even under these circumstances, they seem to last a decent amount of time ...so maybe it's one of those "in a perfect world" kind of things...
 
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corneileous

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Yeah that’s true, even if the lift kit you choose has the relocating bracket that drops your whole front axle down a little bit to minimize the extreme angle of your axle shafts and the drive line but still, they are at a lot more of an angle than they were when the ride height was stock so I see your point about manual hubs, no doubt about it.

But yeah, she didn’t have all that stuff but irregardless that I had a transfer case, axles and a front differential, being that both of my axles were turning with the front wheels is what I assumed why she was getting a lot better fuel mileage than I was even considering I was still running the factory P rated tires as so was she.

As far as whether or not the lack of manual hubs would’ve affected my mileage or not, we’ll never know unless someone chimes in that had an 08 like mine where they added manual locking hubs and if that improved their mileage or not and as far as her truck’s gearing, it coulda been whatever the alternative was when those were being made. Mine had the 3.92’s just like my 2018 has.

But I wonder though… As with the case on my old 96 Dakota that was four-wheel-drive, the 2004 four-wheel-drive Dakota I had, my old 98 1500 four-wheel-drive and the 2008 four-wheel-drive halfton I had before my current 2018 four-wheel-drive 1500, how does disconnecting the passenger side front axle with that slip collar keep everything else from turning? Being that the front driveline isn’t turning in 2-wheel, is the front diff not turning as well? I guess I just don’t understand being that the driver side front axle is always connected to the differential that the differential would still turn…
 
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WireEd

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I'm a former warranty engineer at New Process Gear (closed now) where we used to build transfer cases for these trucks. The move from front axle disconnect (whether lockout hubs or internal disconnect, vacuum or otherwise) to "live axle" was done for two reasons: hi warranty returns costs and factory assembly costs. Additionally, efficiencies have improved so much that the friction losses are negligible nowadays. It used to save the driver 3-5 mpg with the lockout vs. live axle. Now it is less than .5 mpg so it does not cost justify. Lockout hubs are horrendous to keep in good shape; internal disconnects fail, whether electric or vacuum. Like someone stated above, no problem to get 170k+ mileage out of the live axle setup. It is simpler with less moving parts. Moving the shafts and gears always keeps them and their seals lubricated. You can't get 20k out of lockout hubs without removing and rebuilding/replacing them. Then they fail only when you need them. I will always be a fanboy of the live axle setup, mileage or not.
 
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corneileous

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I'm a former warranty engineer at New Process Gear (closed now) where we used to build transfer cases for these trucks. The move from front axle disconnect (whether lockout hubs or internal disconnect, vacuum or otherwise) to "live axle" was done for two reasons: hi warranty returns costs and factory assembly costs. Additionally, efficiencies have improved so much that the friction losses are negligible nowadays. It used to save the driver 3-5 mpg with the lockout vs. live axle. Now it is less than .5 mpg so it does not cost justify. Lockout hubs are horrendous to keep in good shape; internal disconnects fail, whether electric or vacuum. Like someone stated above, no problem to get 170k+ mileage out of the live axle setup. It is simpler with less moving parts. Moving the shafts and gears always keeps them and their seals lubricated. You can't get 20k out of lockout hubs without removing and rebuilding/replacing them. Then they fail only when you need them. I will always be a fanboy of the live axle setup, mileage or not.
So is this on all the four wheel drive trucks or just the HD’s? As far as whether or not my old 2008 or my new 2018 has the disconnect- I guess I really don’t know. I’m assuming they do.

But as far as OEM manual hubs, I’m sure what you said is true for them but if you can get a set of Warn hubs, I’ve never heard of any failure with those and that all you ever had to do with those was just regular maintenance.
 

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So is this on all the four wheel drive trucks or just the HD’s? As far as whether or not my old 2008 or my new 2018 has the disconnect- I guess I really don’t know. I’m assuming they do.

But as far as OEM manual hubs, I’m sure what you said is true for them but if you can get a set of Warn hubs, I’ve never heard of any failure with those and that all you ever had to do with those was just regular maintenance.
Yes this would only be with the 4wd trucks. I've used both Warn and Superwinch 6 bolts hubs on an old jeep and they did not last long. Actually the old factory cheapies lasted longer.
 

WireEd

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I'm a former warranty engineer at New Process Gear (closed now) where we used to build transfer cases for these trucks. The move from front axle disconnect (whether lockout hubs or internal disconnect, vacuum or otherwise) to "live axle" was done for two reasons: hi warranty returns costs and factory assembly costs. Additionally, efficiencies have improved so much that the friction losses are negligible nowadays. It used to save the driver 3-5 mpg with the lockout vs. live axle. Now it is less than .5 mpg so it does not cost justify. Lockout hubs are horrendous to keep in good shape; internal disconnects fail, whether electric or vacuum. Like someone stated above, no problem to get 170k+ mileage out of the live axle setup. It is simpler with less moving parts. Moving the shafts and gears always keeps them and their seals lubricated. You can't get 20k out of lockout hubs without removing and rebuilding/replacing them. Then they fail only when you need them. I will always be a fanboy of the live axle setup, mileage or not.
So I may stand corrected with this one. I went out and looked at my '21 Ram Classic and it seems that there is actually a front disconnect axle with an electric actuator, likely a dog clutch and fork setup. Huh. My bad, who knew!! :p
 
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corneileous

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I was going to say, I thought my 2018 and my 2008 was just like my second GEN halfton and both of the two Dakotas I had. But as I was asking before, what is it about the halfton’s with that front axle disconnect that keeps the driveline from turning as well? Being that there is no disconnect on the driver side axle, is the front differential staying still also?
 

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I was going to say, I thought my 2018 and my 2008 was just like my second GEN halfton and both of the two Dakotas I had. But as I was asking before, what is it about the halfton’s with that front axle disconnect that keeps the driveline from turning as well? Being that there is no disconnect on the driver side axle, is the front differential staying still also?

That 04 Dakota you speak of did not have any axle disconnect. I'm unsure if the 96 would have.

3rd Gen Rams did not have axle disconnect, 2nd and 4th do. Early on the axle disconnects were very suspect and failed often so they went away. Later on they came back for increased fuel economy.

Adding lockout hubs to an HD Ram is not a simple or cheap endeavor. You have to upgrade to a free-spin kit from the likes of Dynatrac perhaps...2K plus if I recall.
 
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corneileous

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That 04 Dakota you speak of did not have any axle disconnect. I'm unsure if the 96 would have.

3rd Gen Rams did not have axle disconnect, 2nd and 4th do. Early on the axle disconnects were very suspect and failed often so they went away. Later on they came back for increased fuel economy.

Adding lockout hubs to an HD Ram is not a simple or cheap endeavor. You have to upgrade to a free-spin kit from the likes of Dynatrac perhaps...2K plus if I recall.
Since you mentioned the tedious and expensive task of upgrading to manual hubs on the HD’s, are you perhaps talking about the third-Gen HD’s because according to this YouTube video, this is a 2008 1500 4x4 with that axle disconnect actuator. As far as my Dakotas, I really wanna say the 96 had something similar to that next to the front diff but for the life of me without looking it up and doing a bunch of research, I really don’t know why the 2nd-Gen 04 Dak would be different and as far as the 4th Gens, a guy on tic tock last night pretty much proved to me that his 2012 3500 SRW Cummins did not have an actuator.
 

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There's little subsets here and there as well as small details I don't know, I'll admit. The 3500 4th gen might not have cad, I don't know.

Guy I work with has an 02 1500 and an 06 2500 and I'd bet a 5er that neither of them have cad. I've worked on them, but not often. Perhaps the cad in 3rd gen Rams came a little later, with the coil over suspension?

The 04 Dakota 100% doesn't have it. I owned an 02 for a while and became a wealth of useless information on them.
 
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corneileous

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There's little subsets here and there as well as small details I don't know, I'll admit. The 3500 4th gen might not have cad, I don't know.

Guy I work with has an 02 1500 and an 06 2500 and I'd bet a 5er that neither of them have cad. I've worked on them, but not often. Perhaps the cad in 3rd gen Rams came a little later, with the coil over suspension?

The 04 Dakota 100% doesn't have it. I owned an 02 for a while and became a wealth of useless information on them.
I guess maybe it could have, I don’t know but the 2500’s/3500’s that were like this guy’s 12 that said he doesn’t have it; for the ones that supposedly have it, how would they have it? Would it be the same as the 1500’s or would it be in the diff? I could see how that slip-collar would be sufficient for the 1/2 tons but I just don’t see that strong enough for the HD’s. But now that I honk about it, since my 98 1500 had a solid front axle, how would it have somehow disconnected the front driveline from the axles?
 

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2nd gens had a two piece passenger side axle shaft and splined collar to join them. Same concept as now, but they were vacuum actuated and prone to fail. The theory works just fine, parts have to get bigger is all.
 

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There is a video you need to watch! I just watched it, and finally understand how differentials work. All that the CAD does is eliminate movement in the driveshaft going from transmission to differential and from one big gear in differential called the ring gear.
 

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I was going to say, I thought my 2018 and my 2008 was just like my second GEN halfton and both of the two Dakotas I had. But as I was asking before, what is it about the halfton’s with that front axle disconnect that keeps the driveline from turning as well? Being that there is no disconnect on the driver side axle, is the front differential staying still also?
Here is the video see. (see my previous comment)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC6fsNXdcMQ
 
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corneileous

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Here is the video see. (see my previous comment)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC6fsNXdcMQ
I was referring to the front end about what happens when the truck is in 4WD vs not being that we don’t have manual locking hubs. I know we have the front axe disconnect collar I believe on the pass side of the axle but I don’t know what else is turning with obviously the driver side wheel when the truck is in 2WD.
 

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I was referring to the front end about what happens when the truck is in 4WD vs not being that we don’t have manual locking hubs. I know we have the front axe disconnect collar I believe on the pass side of the axle but I don’t know what else is turning with obviously the driver side wheel when the truck is in 2WD.
You have got to understand how a differential works then it makes sense. If one side is disconnected then only the spider gears spin, driveline and ring gear will not spin. If CAD is disconnected when truck is rolling forward then driveline will not spin. Also, the inner axle on passenger side will be rotating backwards.
 
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