Engine upgrade

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Anzac

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I have a 2002 4.7 with a NV3500 manual.I was wondering if I could upgrade to a 5.7 or a 5.9,and if so what would be the easy option.


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Fast69Mopar

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The 5.9 Magnum would be an easier option since the 2002 DR came off the assembly line with a 5.9 under the hood. If you were to go ahead with the swap the easiest way is to locate a donor truck for cheap and start swapping components.

You will need the engine, engine wiring harness and a PCM from a manual trans truck. Now, the only problem is you wont find a PCM from a truck with a 360 and a manual trans so another JTEC PCM's will have to be sourced.

I think the PCM you would have to go with would be from a 2002 BE Ram 2500 with a 360/5spd combo.

Are you planning on keeping the NV3500 or swapping to the 46RE or even a G238 6-speed?

If you did want to go with a HEMI swap then this link has some decent info on the swap. If it were me personally I would go with the 5.7 HEMI swap but I have the experience and access to every single wiring diagram and service manual from Chrysler.

https://dodgeforum.com/forum/3rd-gen-ram-tech/282926-hemi-swap-complete-2002-4-7-to-2003-5-7-a.html

Im not knocking you ability at all. Not everyone is a mechanic or has the mechanical skills and aptitude to do a swap like this.
 
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Anzac

Anzac

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Keeping the NV3500 if possible.


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Anzac

Anzac

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I have zero mechanical aptitude.Also, my truck has been converted to right hand drive because im in Australia.

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Fast69Mopar

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There are some good write-ups to do the HEMI swap but I think its the most difficult. The 5.9 swap would the easiest. There are plenty of donor trucks out there but I dont know what the situation is in Australia.

Have you looked around for a donor truck or do you have a local salvage yard that has alot of choices?
 
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Anzac

Anzac

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I do have a local salvage yard (it's only 5 hour drive)that specialises in jeep parts.Are any jeep engines compatible?Dodge rams are like hens teeth down here.

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Fast69Mopar

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If you were going to stick with the 5.9 for your swap you would have to go back to the 1998 Grand Cherokee to get a motor. Being in Australia I think some of your engine swap parts like an engine wiring harness and manual trans PCM will have to be shipped in from the USA.

If you wanted to go with the 5.7 you can find them in the WK Grand Cherokees. With your "local" parts choices being limited as they are, if you chose the 5.7 HEMI I think you would be better off going with a standalone controller like the Holley Dominator, AEM Infinity or the FAST XFI setup or maybe even a MegaSquirt setup.

The Holley systems are a bit pricey. The AEM Infinity system is more budget friendly. This type of swap is going to take some research and your choice will depend heavily on your budget.

If you have any questions or need some input just let me know.
 
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Anzac

Anzac

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Thanks for the info,it gives me a few options to think on.

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SouthernGorilla

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I've been researching an engine swap for my '04 and I've found lots of interesting information that has me leaning towards a 5.9 swap. A lot of it depends on exactly what you want to accomplish and what your emissions requirements are.

1) It's been rumored that you can run a hemi with the 4.7 ECM. The computer doesn't know what engine it's connected to, only what signals it receives. So if you can get the crankshaft and camshaft position sensors to send the correct signals you'll be golden. This is actually what I'm looking at for a 5.9 swap. I think this is the tidiest option, though it does have its own complications. But I haven't found an actual example of this yet, just a lot of, "my cousin's brother has a friend who knows a guy who..."

2) It is possible to run other engines with a GM ECM. There is at least one company that sells a standalone harness and the necessary sensors to make an LS computer work on other engines. I didn't look too far into it myself. This is kind of related to the first point, the computer doesn't know what engine it's connected to. The advantage of this idea is that the LS computer is much more adaptable, the code has been cracked and it's easily programmed to work with blowers, nitrous, or whatever.

3) The standalone options mentioned in the previous post will work, but none of them offer OBDII compliance. None of the aftermarket suppliers have the resources to jump through the hoops required for OBDII, especially since they don't know what engines or vehicles their gear is going on. That may or may not be a problem where you live, but you need to be aware of it.

4) If you really just want some extra power it may be simpler to bolt on a blower rather than swap engines. I don't have the link handy at the moment, but I did find a company that sells a kit to put a GM 3800 blower on the 4.7L. It doesn't make massive boost, but anything's better than the stock engine. The kit is around $4,200 USD, not sure what that might be with shipping to Oz. But it could be cheaper than a swap.

One good thing is that your '02 is old enough that it has an ECM still instead of a PCM. That might simplify whatever swap you do. But I don't know what information the ECM might be looking for from other control modules. It was '05 or '06 when Dodge mashed the ECM and TCM together into the PCM. That's something else to consider when you go looking for parts. Lots of people, including most of the vendors I've seen, lump the ECM and PCM together. They are different things. I still can't find a definitive answer whether the manual-equipped ECM trucks even have a Trans Control Module or not. I don't see why they would have, but who knows.

If you don't need OBDII, I'd recommend one of the standalone ECMs mentioned previously and either the 5.9 or the blower kit for your 4.7. Either the 5.9 or the hemi should bolt to the NV3500, not sure about the input shaft though. I say 5.9 over the hemi for the same reason given earlier in the thread, it was a stock option so the parts should be readily available. Granted, the hemi came out in '03, so it might be just as simple. But the 5.9 might be easier to find since it was around for decades as the 360 before they went all metric. Cost is the deciding factor for me. I can get a 5.9 for $250, complete and running. A used hemi will set me back 3-4 times that.

If you need OBDII, you're stuck with an OEM computer. That means you'll have to decide which engine you think will be easier to fit to all the other electronics.
 

Fast69Mopar

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The 5.9/360ci motor was never offered in the 2004 MY trucks. 2003 was the last year for the 5.9 Magnum. For the 2004 model, a swap from a 4.7 to a 5.7 is the easiest. Engine, PCM and wiring harness is about all that is needed to get it running.

I have done several 4.7 to 5.7 engine swaps. The problem with going back to the 5.9/360 is not everything is backwards compatible. The truck currently has a 545RFE for a transmission. Wanna swap to a 360? Now you're going to need a JTEC-PCM (Jeep Truck Engine Controller), 46RE trans/converter, trans mount and driveshaft along with a complete engine/trans wiring harness and that is just the basics.

To correct some information in this last post.

"It was '05 or '06 when Dodge mashed the ECM and TCM together into the PCM."

The NGC PCM first appeared on 2002 LH vehicles and 2002 ½ DN vehicles with the 4.7L engine.

The 2003 MY 5.7 HEMI used the NGC-PCM with 4 plugs which means the PCM and TCM are combined in one unit.

The JTEC is still used on 10 cylinder applications.

Differences Between NGC3 and NGC4

On NGC3 controllers, internal communications between the PCM and TCM microprocessors takes place via the Dual-Port RAM chip. This integrated circuit allows the two microprocessors to directly share high-speed digital information internally without having to rely on the PCI Bus for all communications. NGC4 (2007+ MY) instead uses a single board with a single processor. There are other notable differences between NGC3 and NGC4:
TIPM inputs to and controls of previous NGC functions
New signals over the CAN bus
Voltage regulator strategy
Connector I/O differences
Transmission-only module to support diesel applications
Processor bandwidth and speed:
NGC3: 32 bit/32 MHz engine processor, 16 bit/16 MHz transmission processor
NGC4: 32 bit/80MHz processor for both engine and transmission
 

SouthernGorilla

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The 5.9/360ci motor was never offered in the 2004 MY trucks. 2003 was the last year for the 5.9 Magnum. For the 2004 model, a swap from a 4.7 to a 5.7 is the easiest. Engine, PCM and wiring harness is about all that is needed to get it running.
I see I muddied the discussion by simultaneously mentioning my own truck. I know there was no 360 in '04, I was talking about the OP's '02.

The truck currently has a 545RFE for a transmission. Wanna swap to a 360? Now you're going to need a JTEC-PCM (Jeep Truck Engine Controller), 46RE trans/converter, trans mount and driveshaft along with a complete engine/trans wiring harness and that is just the basics.
Who has the 545RFE? The OP said he has the NV3500. No controller there, a 5.9 would bolt right up and work fine.

Seems I was misinformed about the ECM/PCM question. Not the first time.

I think in the OP's case the 5.9 would be the simpler swap because it was an option for his MY, so he should be able to find the right PCM easily. In fact, here they are; plug & play, no need to scrounge junkyards looking for the right one. They even come already flashed with your VIN. I'm sure a call to their tech support would help figure out exactly the right one for his truck. Was the hemi ever offered with a manual transmission in the 1500? Would an automatic PCM work with a manual transmission?
 

HemiLonestar

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Damn I can't seem to type correctly .I didn't even see my typo. Thanks for fixing it.
It happens lol. That setup is the bane of every 03 hemi owner's existence [emoji2959]
 

HemiLonestar

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What about the 2005 5.7? Integrated or separate? Thanks.
He meant 2004. 2004 they combined them into one module, though it didn't have the tunability of the 2005 (arguably the best year for custom tuning). Dodge also changed over to the actual electronic pedal vs the bellcrank pedal to the APPS under the battery tray the 03 has.
 

Fast69Mopar

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He meant 2004. 2004 they combined them into one module, though it didn't have the tunability of the 2005 (arguably the best year for custom tuning). Dodge also changed over to the actual electronic pedal vs the bellcrank pedal to the APPS under the battery tray the 03 has.

I am using HP Tuners for both of my 2004 Ram 1500 HEMI trucks. One of my trucks still has the stock 2004 NGC PCM and the other one has been swapped to a 2005 PCM and there is definitely a difference in tuning and what can be changed/modified.

I have a 2003 Ram 1500 RCSB 5.7 that was given to me as payment for another job. I am going to do a standalone system on this truck using the Holley Dominator setup.
 

HemiLonestar

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I have a 2003 Ram 1500 RCSB 5.7 that was given to me as payment for another job. I am going to do a standalone system on this truck using the Holley Dominator setup.

What trans you going with?
 

Fast69Mopar

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What trans you going with?

I am using the 46RH at the moment for the swap but I have some other ideas. This trans can handle the power and abuse and still be a reliable cruiser.

I have an Edge Racing Street Edge Billet Converter with a 3000rpm stall speed that I saved from a build a couple of years ago.

This 2003 DR has already been worked on by another Mopar guy. It has a
Dana 60 out back from a 2006 SRT-10 truck. It also has 4.56 gears and a Spartan locker from USA Standard Gear.
 

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