Factory ZF 8 speed transmission fill procedure after doing a tranny service

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Rod Knock

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I pulled my camper (about 3500lbs plus 2 adults and 2 kids in the truck with supplies) up the Ike Gauntlet in 2018. The hottest my diff got was about 160⁰ according to my infrared thermometer. I had Amsoil SG 75w140 in it at the time and that pretty much sold me on SG after that.

Well, Severe Gear is nothing more than heavy-duty truck gear oil with friction modifier added to it. It's not quite as good as Delvac because Delvac doesn't use any viscosity improvers (it's meant to be used in heavy trucks), so it's thicker, but not quite as bad as Mobil 1 gear oil which is meant to shear and has a low flash point, especially the 75W-90 (that one is a real ****). I think that Exxon Mobil doesn't want their Mobil 1 gear oil to compete with the Delvac 1, so they made it weaker on purpose. I would say that Valvoline SynPower is pretty damn close to what Severe Gear is, which the exception that Valvoline Syn 75W-90 is J2360 certified, *** MIL-SPEC approved. I doubt that they submitted their 75W-140 to the same tests since 75W-140 is not really used in commercial applications in the US anymore.

SG was my choice for this truck but i may try castrol syntrax instead

Walmart has a decent deal on it: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Castrol-...140-Full-Synthetic-Gear-Oil-1-Liter/524986251

For your front diff if you want to go all Castrol: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C3JV2GC/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A3J5NRMG7P7P87&psc=1

I'd be curious to hear from someone using Valvoline SynPower. Valvoline makes good products and they have excellent chemists and formulators. The R&D and manufacturing capabilities that the big guys are capable of is nothing to sneeze at. Too bad they have an "honor among thieves" where none of them makes a decent PAO-based universal ATF.
 

Rod Knock

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I contacted driven oil on their fr20 5w20 and i got a spec sheet for it. He said nothing of moly content which was my main question so im waiting on a response as to the moly. Their ls30 5w30 has 300 ppm of trimmer moly according to someone on bitog who uses it but i cannot remember his name

i will update as soon as i hear of the moly content

View attachment 239820

If you don't want Mobil 1 0W-40, take a look at Castrol Edge EP 5W-30. That's also an excellent oil. I ran EDGE EP 5W-20 for a short while before going to 0W-40 and it ran fine in the HEMI. The 5W-30 is even better, engineered for turbocharged engines, made to cope with high heat.
 

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The majority of the diff gets airflow,the whole front side hangs out where air can hit it,unless your running a really low drop,lol.The pinion bearings are the hottest running bearings in a diff,and the front pinion bearing is out where it gets lots of airflow,and if you watch Gales video's not once does he check the front of the diff for temp,where the front pinion bearing resides,so we're not really sure if his cover does anything to cool the hottest running bearings ie:the pinion bearings

The front diff cover is directly in the airstream, and is not often used, so that's a non-starter debate.

As I said, on Bank's CFD design graphics you see the computed oil flow path via ring gear tooth lift through the cast-in gear channel to the front pinion gear, so the fact that the oil distribution is purposely designed to hit the critical bearing is essential. The pinion gear is also out front in the wind stream. The temperature reduction is to remove heat from the oil to lengthen oxidation life.
 

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Well, Severe Gear is nothing more than heavy-duty truck gear oil with friction modifier added to it. It's not quite as good as Delvac because Delvac doesn't use any viscosity improvers (it's meant to be used in heavy trucks), so it's thicker, but not quite as bad as Mobil 1 gear oil which is meant to shear and has a low flash point, especially the 75W-90 (that one is a real ****). I think that Exxon Mobil doesn't want their Mobil 1 gear oil to compete with the Delvac 1, so they made it weaker on purpose. I would say that Valvoline SynPower is pretty damn close to what Severe Gear is, which the exception that Valvoline Syn 75W-90 is J2360 certified, *** MIL-SPEC approved. I doubt that they submitted their 75W-140 to the same tests since 75W-140 is not really used in commercial applications in the US anymore.



Walmart has a decent deal on it: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Castrol-...140-Full-Synthetic-Gear-Oil-1-Liter/524986251

For your front diff if you want to go all Castrol: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C3JV2GC/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A3J5NRMG7P7P87&psc=1

I'd be curious to hear from someone using Valvoline SynPower. Valvoline makes good products and they have excellent chemists and formulators. The R&D and manufacturing capabilities that the big guys are capable of is nothing to sneeze at. Too bad they have an "honor among thieves" where none of them makes a decent PAO-based universal ATF.
I will use castrol for my truck. Debated valvoline to. See at wallmart the 75w90 comes on the nice easy packs like amsoil does
 

Travis8352

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If you don't want Mobil 1 0W-40, take a look at Castrol Edge EP 5W-30. That's also an excellent oil. I ran EDGE EP 5W-20 for a short while before going to 0W-40 and it ran fine in the HEMI. The 5W-30 is even better, engineered for turbocharged engines, made to cope with high heat.
Im just researching everything possible to use for our engines
 

Rod Knock

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I will use castrol for my truck. Debated valvoline to. See at wallmart the 75w90 comes on the nice easy packs like amsoil does

The Castrol bottle has a rubber "******" that you pull up and insert into the fill hole, then pour or squeeze the bottle. It's a vert "German" design. Yes, that stuff is made in Germany.

I will use castrol for my truck. Debated valvoline to. See at wallmart the 75w90 comes on the nice easy packs like amsoil does

Well, if you get an Amsoil membership for $16/year, you can get Severe Gear for almost the same money as Valvoline. Then again, I got Valvoline almost for free from Advance Auto Parts because I had a bunch of reward points from buying batteries and other stuff. I would not spend money on Amsoil motor oil though, especially for a GDI motor. It doesn't do anything for HEMIs and my Hyundais will trash any motor oil, so I'll keep using PAO-based Castrol (made in Belgium) that I buy at Walmart. Technically it's superior to Amsoil's SS 0W-40 because it has some very difficult to obtain and costly certifications like Porsche A40.

I believe that Castrol EDGE 0W-40 will also do great in a HEMI. I am actually also considering it for my next oil change, since I have an entire stash of it, bought it on sale for sub $20/5 quarts. Since it doesn't have any Trimmer it's less likely to clash with Lubegard. Titanium activates at lower temps than Moly, so it's nice to have a double layer of protection when adding Lubegard to it.

The front diff cover is directly in the airstream, and is not often used, so that's a non-starter debate.

As I said, on Bank's CFD design graphics you see the computed oil flow path via ring gear tooth lift through the cast-in gear channel to the front pinion gear, so the fact that the oil distribution is purposely designed to hit the critical bearing is essential. The pinion gear is also out front in the wind stream. The temperature reduction is to remove heat from the oil to lengthen oxidation life.

I wish Banks made a diff cover for the RAM 1500 as well. I don't like the rubber fill plug and the fact that the drain plug is in the diff housing itself. That's why I was considering an aftermarket diff cover for the rear. The front diff is a different story. The entire unit is made by ZF and it looks almost like a BMW diff.
 
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Wild one

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The front diff cover is directly in the airstream, and is not often used, so that's a non-starter debate.

As I said, on Bank's CFD design graphics you see the computed oil flow path via ring gear tooth lift through the cast-in gear channel to the front pinion gear, so the fact that the oil distribution is purposely designed to hit the critical bearing is essential. The pinion gear is also out front in the wind stream. The temperature reduction is to remove heat from the oil to lengthen oxidation life.

Wasn't referring to the front diff,the whole front side of the rear diff is also air cooled,unless you're really lowered. The front pinion bearing is always the hottest running bearing,it's that way in any right angle drive gearbox which a diff basically is. It's always the little pinion bearing that goes south in any right angle gearbox,and in none of Gales video's does he compare the front pinion bearing temperature differances between his cover and the factory cover.As far as fluid control goes,his cover basically mimic's what the factory cover does as far as cooling the ring gear and pinion bearings go. I'm a fan of his diff cover,but is it the greatest thing since sliced bread i think not,but it's definitely a step up from the other aftermarket covers on the market these days.I still wonder why he wasn't checking pinion bearing temps at the nose of the diff,as that's a very obvious heat point to be checking,and it made me wonder why he didn't focus on those temps more then he did
 

Travis8352

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The Castrol bottle has a rubber "******" that you pull up and insert into the fill hole, then pour or squeeze the bottle. It's a vert "German" design. Yes, that stuff is made in Germany.



Well, if you get an Amsoil membership for $16/year, you can get Severe Gear for almost the same money as Valvoline. Then again, I got Valvoline almost for free from Advance Auto Parts because I had a bunch of reward points from buying batteries and other stuff. I would not spend money on Amsoil motor oil though, especially for a GDI motor. It doesn't do anything for HEMIs and my Hyundais will trash any motor oil, so I'll keep using PAO-based Castrol (made in Belgium) that I buy at Walmart. Technically it's superior to Amsoil's SS 0W-40 because it has some very difficult to obtain and costly certifications like Porsche A40.

I believe that Castrol EDGE 0W-40 will also do great in a HEMI. I am actually also considering it for my next oil change, since I have an entire stash of it, bought it on sale for sub $20/5 quarts. Since it doesn't have any Trimmer it's less likely to clash with Lubegard. Titanium activates at lower temps than Moly, so it's nice to have a double layer of protection when adding Lubegard to it.



I wish Banks made a diff cover for the RAM 1500 as well. I don't like the rubber fill plug and the fact that the drain plug is in the diff housing itself. That's why I was considering an aftermarket diff cover for the rear. The front diff is a different story. The entire unit is made by ZF and it looks almost like a BMW diff.
I contemplated 0w40 castrol as well. I wanted to run 0w30 but i saw they have no moly there either. I was going to run amsoil but im glad i didnt. Doesnt seem to do anything at quieting our engines or curing tick
 
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Wild one

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The Castrol bottle has a rubber "******" that you pull up and insert into the fill hole, then pour or squeeze the bottle. It's a vert "German" design. Yes, that stuff is made in Germany.



Well, if you get an Amsoil membership for $16/year, you can get Severe Gear for almost the same money as Valvoline. Then again, I got Valvoline almost for free from Advance Auto Parts because I had a bunch of reward points from buying batteries and other stuff. I would not spend money on Amsoil motor oil though, especially for a GDI motor. It doesn't do anything for HEMIs and my Hyundais will trash any motor oil, so I'll keep using PAO-based Castrol (made in Belgium) that I buy at Walmart. Technically it's superior to Amsoil's SS 0W-40 because it has some very difficult to obtain and costly certifications like Porsche A40.

I believe that Castrol EDGE 0W-40 will also do great in a HEMI. I am actually also considering it for my next oil change, since I have an entire stash of it, bought it on sale for sub $20/5 quarts. Since it doesn't have any Trimmer it's less likely to clash with Lubegard. Titanium activates at lower temps than Moly, so it's nice to have a double layer of protection when adding Lubegard to it.



I wish Banks made a diff cover for the RAM 1500 as well. I don't like the rubber fill plug and the fact that the drain plug is in the diff housing itself. That's why I was considering an aftermarket diff cover for the rear. The front diff is a different story. The entire unit is made by ZF and it looks almost like a BMW diff.

I gotta question why you don't like the drain plug towards the front of the housing,give it a little thought.The average home DIY'er is usually doing his rear fluid swap with the rear tires sitting on ramps,or jacked in the air slightly,having the drain plug situated towards the front of the diff means you're going to have a better more complete drain then you would if the drain plug was located in the rear cover,which would also put the drain farther up off the floor of the diff housing.Where the factory drain plug is located,is probably the best place to have it.Plus if the manufacture'rs didn't think that was the best place for it,they would of located it in the rear cover.Way cheaper to do a drain plug in a stamped steel cover,then it is to do a cast in drain plug in a cast iron housing,so if there was an advantage to locating it in the cover,the corporate bean counters would have had the engineers put it in the cover,lol.BTW i hope your doing your diff and T-case fluid swaps hot,they're no differant then an engine oil change,you get a better fluid change when they're hot,and driving it around the block isn't a far enough drive to get the diff or T-case up to temp,run it down the highway for at least 20 miles at 65+mph as the bare mininium before doing the diffs and t-case
 

Rod Knock

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I contemplated 0w40 castrol as well. I wanted to run 0w30 but i saw they have no moly there either. I was going to run amsoil but im glad i didnt. Doesnt seem to do anything at quieting our engines or curing tick

Moly is not what quiets down down the HEMI thick. It's these 3 things:
  • A healthy oil filter that doesn't have drain back issues and can supply enough oil to the overhead. The HEMI starts with oil starvation or dirt. Use a bigger high-quality filter. If you're concerned, run the @Burla recommended RP 20-820 filter, its filtration is second to none.
  • Red Line Oil and Lubegard Bio-Tech have Oxygen charged Esters, which tend to stick to metals. Actually most high-end oils have these, but Red Line Oil has it in a higher concentration.
  • POE is basically a solvent. Again, oils like M1 FS 0W-40, EDGE 0W-40, and others have it, but in smaller quantities. Long drain oils like EDGE EP and M1 EP have it as well. Again, Red Line Oil and Lubegard have a higher concentration of it. This cleans dirty lifters and clogged oil passages that go to the lifters
  • Honorable mention: don't disable MDS unless you do a real MDS delete which involves putting new lifters in and removing the solenoids. When MDS is active all lifters get the most oil.
As you can see, you don't need to obsess over Moly. If your engine is clean and you run a good filter and don't neglect your OCIs then you should be good for a long time. However, if you want to torture yourself to death looking at VOAs, UOAs, MSDS, and PDS sheets, well, it's your time. Been there, done that. How do you think I learned all of the above?

Plus if the manufacture'rs didn't think that was the best place for it,they would of located it in the rear cover.

Sorry, couldn't resist, hehe. FCA/Stellantis and common sense don't go well together in any sentence. They managed to place the motor oil filter in a weird location, they built trucks without an oil heat exchanger and then expected people to run 5W-20 while towing heavy, they located the transmission drain plug exactly above the exhaust pipe, on some vehicle you have to remove the front driveshaft to gain access to the transmission fill plug, and I could go on and on.

I'm fine with the front differential. I just didn't want to mess with the drain plug in the axle, it seemed more convenient to have it at the bottom of the front cover. Not $300 more convenient, lol. That PPE diff cover is not worth that much money, and it's not even close to what Banks offer as far as fluid dynamics are concerned.
 
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Wild one

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Moly is not what quiets down down the HEMI thick. It's these 3 things:
  • A healthy oil filter that doesn't have drain back issues and can supply enough oil to the overhead. The HEMI starts with oil starvation or dirt. Use a bigger high-quality filter. If you're concerned, run the @Burla recommended RP 20-820 filter, its filtration is second to none.
  • Red Line Oil and Lubegard Bio-Tech have Oxygen charged Esters, which tend to stick to metals. Actually most high-end oils have these, but Red Line Oil has it in a higher concentration.
  • POE is basically a solvent. Again, oils like M1 FS 0W-40, EDGE 0W-40, and others have it, but in smaller quantities. Long drain oils like EDGE EP and M1 EP have it as well. Again, Red Line Oil and Lubegard have a higher concentration of it. This cleans dirty lifters and clogged oil passages that go to the lifters
  • Honorable mention: don't disable MDS unless you do a real MDS delete which involves putting new lifters in and removing the solenoids. When MDS is active all lifters get the most oil.
As you can see, you don't need to obsess over Moly. If your engine is clean and you run a good filter and don't neglect your OCIs then you should be good for a long time. However, if you want to torture yourself to death looking at VOAs, UOAs, MSDS, and PDS sheets, well, it's your time. Been there, done that. How do you think I learned all of the above?



Sorry, couldn't resist, hehe. FCA/Stellantis and common sense don't go well together in any sentence. They managed to place the motor oil filter in a weird location, they built trucks without an oil heat exchanger and then expected people to run 5W-20 while towing heavy, they located the transmission drain plug exactly above the exhaust pipe, on some vehicle you have to remove the front driveshaft to gain access to the transmission fill plug, and I could go on and on.

I'm fine with the front differential. I just didn't want to mess with the drain plug in the axle, it seemed more convenient to have it at the bottom of the front cover. Not $300 more convenient, lol. That PPE diff cover is not worth that much money, and it's not even close to what Banks offer as far as fluid dynamics are concerned.

Might be the way i'm reading this,lol. I think you want to disable MDS to have the most oil flow to the lifters.When MDS kicks in ,ie: is activated is when the engine drops cylinders and shuts oil flow off to the MDS lifters is my understanding,but maybe i'm reading your post wrong,i've done that before,lol
 

Rod Knock

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Might be the way i'm reading this,lol. I think you want to disable MDS to have the most oil flow to the lifters.When MDS kicks in ,ie: is activated is when the engine drops cylinders and shuts oil flow off to the MDS lifters is my understanding,but maybe i'm reading your post wrong,i've done that before,lol

Some people disable MDS with a tuner and some do it every time they put the truck in "D" by pressing the +- gear buttons on the steering will. When you do that, the oil channels that the solenoids open for the oil to flow into the side of the lifter so it can collapse are no longer used. Those same channels also feed more oil to all the lifters. The MDS lifters have something like a small button on each side and when oil presses on it, the lifter collapses. When the solenoid closes the channel, the MDS lifter locks back into place and all cylinders fire.

Do you want to know why you have to use 5W-20 for MDS to work properly?
 
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Burla

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I'm not sure that moly doesn't have anything to do with it as many trucks maybe as many as 1/2 or more, take several thousand miles to go silent. We know the science of moly suggests that this is how it plates, plus the white paper on cam wear couldn't be more clear on the benefits of high moly. Anecdotally at one point when we were unofficially tracking cam fails 6 reports in a row where users that were using non moly oils. Not only this but mos2 that has no esters also can help some lifter ticks, the reviews on this product are out there.

The best part is there isn't going to be any downside to using products that have oil soluble moly in them, so no need to obsess over it or not, just use it. It is an EP additive, and hemi tick is an EP situation.

But, having said that I can agree with you, because most oils have moly, and those very oils were ticking and then were relived using redline, so it would be a stretch to say the moly in redline is the key when there was moly in other oils. I think we should accept there is only so much we will be able to know about why engines go silent with different formulas. The good news there has been a move to high moly formulas, maybe it is as simple as the lspi issue driving it (as moly is an lspi quencher), I don't know. But, we see many otc oils flirting with the 200ppm moly mark, so we can test this somewhat. If it was as simple as running these oils, we could save a lot of money. 20 bucks for 5 quarts, versus 60 dollars for the same in redline, should be something to consider. The good news is you have lubegard as a back up if your truck ticks with qsud or truck and gas or whatever 200ppm moly oil you try.
 
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Wild one

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Some people disable MDS with a tuner and some do it every time they put the truck in "D" by pressing the +- gear buttons on the steering will. When you do that, the oil channels that the solenoids open for the oil to flow into the side of the lifter so it can collapse are no longer used. Those same channels also feed more oil to all the lifters. The MDS lifters have something like a small button on each side and when oil presses on it, the lifter collapses. When the solenoid closes the channel, the MDS lifter locks back into place and all cylinders fire.

Do you want to know why you have to use 5W-20 for MDS to work properly?

You might be right.

5.7 HEMI Lifter Failure Could this FIX the lifter issue FOREVER? - YouTube

This guys comment does make you wonder about the oil spec'd for the hemi doesn't it.First i've heard of this TSB number that reconmends using a 15W-50 in the warmer climates.


Mike Zobl1 month ago
You've got quite a few excellent observations, and as a powertrain engineer that daily drives a high mileage Hemi ('08 300 6.1L with 110k), I've been looking into prolonging its life. As some people have stated, vehicles with VVT and lots of idle hours (police Chargers, fleet Rams, etc) are the most commonly afflicted with lifter problems, but no Hemi is immune. Looking at the factory PCM tunes for the common Hemis, they tend to target a 500-550 RPM hot idle speed with 5W-20 oil. This is done to ensure the lowest emissions in these bread-and-butter engines. Meanwhile in non-MDS Hemis, they target a 700-725 RPM idle and mandate a 0W-40 Synthetic oil, and SRT engineers put out a TSB saying 15W-50 Synthetic was okay in warmer climates (TSB 09-011-06). As you can imagine, low emissions are not as much of a priority for these low production SRT and manual trans vehicles, so the engineers can recommend what the engine actually needs. So if you wanted to improve longevity, I'd start with the easiest thing: tuning in a higher idle speed for more oil pressure, and using thicker synthetic oil. And for more in-depth hardware changes, ditching the solenoids like you said and possibly switching to the high-volume SRT or even Melling oil pumps. I'm not sure if it's wise to use non-MDS lifters on an MDS cam. Typically, a deactivating lifter collapses faster/further than a non-deactivating lifter. To compensate for this, a deac cam lobe will have an additional 4-7° duration at 0.050" tappet lift, sometimes 60° or more additional duration at 0.006" tappet lift, and an additional 0.25 mm of valve lift. I'd imagine using the same style lifters on all cylinders with an MDS cam would put the engine out of balance with half the cylinders making more power than the other half. But it may not be a big deal.
 
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Travis8352

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Moly is not what quiets down down the HEMI thick. It's these 3 things:
  • A healthy oil filter that doesn't have drain back issues and can supply enough oil to the overhead. The HEMI starts with oil starvation or dirt. Use a bigger high-quality filter. If you're concerned, run the @Burla recommended RP 20-820 filter, its filtration is second to none.
  • Red Line Oil and Lubegard Bio-Tech have Oxygen charged Esters, which tend to stick to metals. Actually most high-end oils have these, but Red Line Oil has it in a higher concentration.
  • POE is basically a solvent. Again, oils like M1 FS 0W-40, EDGE 0W-40, and others have it, but in smaller quantities. Long drain oils like EDGE EP and M1 EP have it as well. Again, Red Line Oil and Lubegard have a higher concentration of it. This cleans dirty lifters and clogged oil passages that go to the lifters
  • Honorable mention: don't disable MDS unless you do a real MDS delete which involves putting new lifters in and removing the solenoids. When MDS is active all lifters get the most oil.
As you can see, you don't need to obsess over Moly. If your engine is clean and you run a good filter and don't neglect your OCIs then you should be good for a long time. However, if you want to torture yourself to death looking at VOAs, UOAs, MSDS, and PDS sheets, well, it's your time. Been there, done that. How do you think I learned all of the above?



Sorry, couldn't resist, hehe. FCA/Stellantis and common sense don't go well together in any sentence. They managed to place the motor oil filter in a weird location, they built trucks without an oil heat exchanger and then expected people to run 5W-20 while towing heavy, they located the transmission drain plug exactly above the exhaust pipe, on some vehicle you have to remove the front driveshaft to gain access to the transmission fill plug, and I could go on and on.

I'm fine with the front differential. I just didn't want to mess with the drain plug in the axle, it seemed more convenient to have it at the bottom of the front cover. Not $300 more convenient, lol. That PPE diff cover is not worth that much money, and it's not even close to what Banks offer as far as fluid dynamics are concerned.
Im not disabling mds. Never thought about it. Will only do it if i have to do cam and lifters some day.

i just rule those 2 out when i can get something else that has moly for same price or cheaper. Ive read enough on this forum that i want moly in whatever oil im using. And ive spent enough time here i cant help but obsess over it! Lol i enjoy wasting my own time :(
 
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Rod Knock

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First of all, I can imagine the pain that anyone who finds this thread on Google will go through while trying to make sense of it, lol. We went from transmissions to transfers cases to HEMIs and motor oil. I am glad, however, that this is not one of those forums where an admin steps in and starts cutting left and right, moving posts around where "they belong."

I'm not sure that moly doesn't have anything to do with it as many trucks maybe as many as 1/2 or more, take several thousand miles to go silent. We know the science of moly suggests that this is how it plates, plus the white paper on cam wear couldn't be more clear on the benefits of high moly. Anecdotally at one point when we were unofficially tracking cam fails 6 reports in a row where users that were using non moly oils. Not only this but mos2 that has no esters also can help some lifter ticks, the reviews on this product are out there.

I completely agree with you and I've learned a great deal from you here on the forum. It's actually what pushed me to read even more. Plus, when I spend time with my two-month-old feeding him or holding him, I read up on lubricants or other sciency stuff, hehe. Moly is very important, however, equally as important as the rest of the motor oil formulation. Red Line Oil is awesome stuff. However, something like TGMO 0W-20 is kind of crappy, even though it has over 700ppm of Moly in it. I have no idea who makes it for Toyota, but it's an SN-rated oil, like 0W-40. Mobil 1 0W-30 racing oil has 1600ppm Moly in it, though I doubt it's trimmer since it's made to work in synergy with the ~2400ppm ZDDP in there. If FCA/Stellantis gave a damn about its customers, they would have made MS-6395 a "real oil specification" and mandated the inclusion of Moly and oxygen-enriched esters. That's what makes the Moly and other additives stick to the lifters and other parts of the engine. That's why Red Line is so awesome for curing ticking HEMIs. It's just so damn expensive, lol.

As usual @Burla, you make some great points and provide excellent info.


You might be right.

5.7 HEMI Lifter Failure Could this FIX the lifter issue FOREVER? - YouTube

This guys comment does make you wonder about the oil spec'd for the hemi doesn't it.First i've heard of this TSB number that reconmends using a 15W-50 in the warmer climates.


Mike Zobl1 month ago
You've got quite a few excellent observations, and as a powertrain engineer that daily drives a high mileage Hemi ('08 300 6.1L with 110k), I've been looking into prolonging its life. As some people have stated, vehicles with VVT and lots of idle hours (police Chargers, fleet Rams, etc) are the most commonly afflicted with lifter problems, but no Hemi is immune. Looking at the factory PCM tunes for the common Hemis, they tend to target a 500-550 RPM hot idle speed with 5W-20 oil. This is done to ensure the lowest emissions in these bread-and-butter engines. Meanwhile in non-MDS Hemis, they target a 700-725 RPM idle and mandate a 0W-40 Synthetic oil, and SRT engineers put out a TSB saying 15W-50 Synthetic was okay in warmer climates (TSB 09-011-06). As you can imagine, low emissions are not as much of a priority for these low production SRT and manual trans vehicles, so the engineers can recommend what the engine actually needs. So if you wanted to improve longevity, I'd start with the easiest thing: tuning in a higher idle speed for more oil pressure, and using thicker synthetic oil. And for more in-depth hardware changes, ditching the solenoids like you said and possibly switching to the high-volume SRT or even Melling oil pumps. I'm not sure if it's wise to use non-MDS lifters on an MDS cam. Typically, a deactivating lifter collapses faster/further than a non-deactivating lifter. To compensate for this, a deac cam lobe will have an additional 4-7° duration at 0.050" tappet lift, sometimes 60° or more additional duration at 0.006" tappet lift, and an additional 0.25 mm of valve lift. I'd imagine using the same style lifters on all cylinders with an MDS cam would put the engine out of balance with half the cylinders making more power than the other half. But it may not be a big deal.

That you so much for this information.

@Travis8352 The reason why FCA/Stellantis mandates the use of 5W-20 (might as well be 0W-20) for "MDS to function as intended" is because this viscosity is thin enough for it to have a meaningful impact on fuel economy and emissions (lower fuel consumptions equals lower emissions in this case). Once you go beyond 0/5W-20, MDS is pretty much worthless. It still works correctly, however, the fuel savings are no longer there. It's the viscous drag on the engine when in 4 cylinder mode. In 8 cylinder mode, I couldn't tell any difference in gas mileage between 5W-20 and 0W-40. I hope this makes sense.
 

chrisbh17

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First of all, I can imagine the pain that anyone who finds this thread on Google will go through while trying to make sense of it, lol. We went from transmissions to transfers cases to HEMIs and motor oil. I am glad, however, that this is not one of those forums where an admin steps in and starts cutting left and right, moving posts around where "they belong."



I completely agree with you and I've learned a great deal from you here on the forum. It's actually what pushed me to read even more. Plus, when I spend time with my two-month-old feeding him or holding him, I read up on lubricants or other sciency stuff, hehe. Moly is very important, however, equally as important as the rest of the motor oil formulation. Red Line Oil is awesome stuff. However, something like TGMO 0W-20 is kind of crappy, even though it has over 700ppm of Moly in it. I have no idea who makes it for Toyota, but it's an SN-rated oil, like 0W-40. Mobil 1 0W-30 racing oil has 1600ppm Moly in it, though I doubt it's trimmer since it's made to work in synergy with the ~2400ppm ZDDP in there. If FCA/Stellantis gave a damn about its customers, they would have made MS-6395 a "real oil specification" and mandated the inclusion of Moly and oxygen-enriched esters. That's what makes the Moly and other additives stick to the lifters and other parts of the engine. That's why Red Line is so awesome for curing ticking HEMIs. It's just so damn expensive, lol.

As usual @Burla, you make some great points and provide excellent info.




That you so much for this information.

@Travis8352 The reason why FCA/Stellantis mandates the use of 5W-20 (might as well be 0W-20) for "MDS to function as intended" is because this viscosity is thin enough for it to have a meaningful impact on fuel economy and emissions (lower fuel consumptions equals lower emissions in this case). Once you go beyond 0/5W-20, MDS is pretty much worthless. It still works correctly, however, the fuel savings are no longer there. It's the viscous drag on the engine when in 4 cylinder mode. In 8 cylinder mode, I couldn't tell any difference in gas mileage between 5W-20 and 0W-40. I hope this makes sense.


If going from 5W-20 to 5W-30 (even a "light" 5W-30) negates the fuel savings from MDS, then there are NO real fuel savings from MDS even when using 5W-20.

Its there to gain MPG *for FCA* to meet CAFE. Not for the customer to save any appreciable amount of $$ on fuel.
 

Rod Knock

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If going from 5W-20 to 5W-30 (even a "light" 5W-30) negates the fuel savings from MDS, then there are NO real fuel savings from MDS even when using 5W-20.

Its there to gain MPG *for FCA* to meet CAFE. Not for the customer to save any appreciable amount of $$ on fuel.

The entire point of the "exercise" is for the RAM 1500 truck to pass the EPA "treadmill" fuel economy test so it's not labeled for the gas guzzler that it truly is. An empty RAM 1500 on a warm day, on a straight highway, in 2WD mode, doing 65 MPH, with a feather-light foot on the throttle, letting slightly off the throttle when going uphill,
will get 20 MPG with or without MDS :***: Other than that, it's 15 MPG all day, lol.
 
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