Fifth Wheel Towing

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Jack R

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Hello I’m a new member and have a question for the experienced folks out there. I’m shopping for a fifth wheel and there’s a lot of info and concern out there regarding trailer and pin weights. What do you guys pull safely with few problems with the 3/4 ton? Mine is a 2018 2500 4x4 short bed with the fifth wheel package and air level. Does anyone pull the regular Montana or Montana Big Country?
 

Fake-Account27

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What's your payload sticker on the ram say? Also what is the estimated mass of drivers, passengers, and cargo in the truck?
 

crash68

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With a 2500 the numbers you look at are the GAWR and keep in mind the GVWR is artificially limited to 10K lbs for vehicle classification purposes. The GCWR is dependent on the state you live in, some require an Elected Gross Weight other states have a set limit.
<sarcasm>If you listen to the payload police on this forum, they'll have you believing the 2500 CTD can't tow more than 8K lbs trailer(I tow a 28' 8K lbs tag along behind my EcoD).
If you put a 12K-14K lbs fiver behind a 2500 CTD the engine will man-handle the trailer like practically nothing is back there. Don't be fooled by how easily the truck drags the trailer, it will still own you and make you it's ***** in the blink of an eye. With that said, the most important safety item is the person behind the wheel.
 

68PowerWagon

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Hello I’m a new member and have a question for the experienced folks out there. I’m shopping for a fifth wheel and there’s a lot of info and concern out there regarding trailer and pin weights. What do you guys pull safely with few problems with the 3/4 ton? Mine is a 2018 2500 4x4 short bed with the fifth wheel package and air level. Does anyone pull the regular Montana or Montana Big Country?

I have a 2016 2500 with the 6.4 & 3.73 gears. I am planning on re-gearing this winter to 4.56 so it can handle the hills & mountains better. I have a Montana, but it is an old one (2006). We pulled it through the West Virginia Mountains & it did ok, considering it is a gasser with not so great gears. Fully loaded the trailer weighed in at 13,200lbs. I imagine your truck could pull that kind of weight with no problem. The issue you will have will be maxing out your payload as your engine weighs almost a 1,000 pounds more than mine. With a short bed you really need a sliding hitch so you can turn sharper. I didn't think I would use it that much, but actually use it all the time to keep from hitting the cab. Unfortunately those hitches are heavy (250lbs) which doesn't help the situation. My truck's axle weight capacity is 5,500 front & 6,500 rear. With my wife, two kids, & some wood in the bed I was at 4,520 front axle & 5,960lbs. rear axle. Max towing with these gears is 12,680. So I am at, or over on some of my numbers. Hope this helps.
 

mtofell

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A lot comes down to the GVWR vs. max axle weight argument. Your GVWR is 10,000# but the sum total of your axles is well above that. You'll find heated arguments from folks on both sides of the debate. The payload sticker on your truck is derived from the 10,000# GVWR. You can carry the pin weight of a 5th wheel that puts you above your payload but under the max your axle and tires are rated to safely carry. It's up to you to decide which parameter you feel safe adhering to.
 

2003F350

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A lot comes down to the GVWR vs. max axle weight argument. Your GVWR is 10,000# but the sum total of your axles is well above that. You'll find heated arguments from folks on both sides of the debate. The payload sticker on your truck is derived from the 10,000# GVWR. You can carry the pin weight of a 5th wheel that puts you above your payload but under the max your axle and tires are rated to safely carry. It's up to you to decide which parameter you feel safe adhering to.

If you're never in an accident or never break anything, you'll be okay sticking in this area.

But get in a wreck, or break something, and try to get it covered by insurance/warranty after being over either the GVW or the GCVW. If they determine you were overloaded, it's an instant denial.

I'm not saying don't do it, because the truck will. Just don't break something or get in an accident.
 

mtofell

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But get in a wreck, or break something, and try to get it covered by insurance/warranty after being over either the GVW or the GCVW. If they determine you were overloaded, it's an instant denial.

Completely not true with respect to insurance (but could be true with warranty coverage). This is what the debate always digresses to and no one has ever been able to cite a single case of this happening.

A similar threat is always thrown around with home owner's insurance. That if you do non-permitted work on your house and it burns down you won't be covered. This is also totally not true.

Insurance companies love to threaten these things but in reality they have to cover you even if you do things you aren't supposed to. The bar they would generally have to meet to deny coverage would be that you purposely intended to defraud them. Something like stage an accident or have your friend "steal" your tools and put them in his garage so you can collect insurance money.
 

2003F350

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Completely not true with respect to insurance (but could be true with warranty coverage). This is what the debate always digresses to and no one has ever been able to cite a single case of this happening.

A similar threat is always thrown around with home owner's insurance. That if you do non-permitted work on your house and it burns down you won't be covered. This is also totally not true.

Insurance companies love to threaten these things but in reality they have to cover you even if you do things you aren't supposed to. The bar they would generally have to meet to deny coverage would be that you purposely intended to defraud them. Something like stage an accident or have your friend "steal" your tools and put them in his garage so you can collect insurance money.

No, they do not have to cover it. And they won't if they find out you were doing something you weren't supposed to.

A friend of mine rolled his truck in his own backyard. His insurance refused to pay for it.

My grandfather bent the rear axle on a brand-new half-ton truck because he filled the back with bags of feed for his pigs. His warranty wouldn't cover it.

My homeowner's insurance had me put in a new hot water heater in my first home, because the existing one that the previous homeowner installed was not the correct style for a manufactured home. After some research, there is a difference, and a standard one put in a manufactured home that causes a fire will not be covered by insurance.

This stuff isn't just a threat, it's real. The fact that most people never get caught is also real, and that's why it is a 'do at your own risk.'

I'll play it safe every time.
 

mtofell

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mtofell... are you on the iRV2 forum?

Yep - that's a great board for RV stuff. I use to hang out on RV.net but it seems every other day there is some technical glitch and I found irv2 which seems to have more traffic.
 

68PowerWagon

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Yep - that's a great board for RV stuff. I use to hang out on RV.net but it seems every other day there is some technical glitch and I found irv2 which seems to have more traffic.

Wow! That's some pretty crazy odds!:crazy: We just got a 5th wheel this summer & I have been on there a lot doing some learning.
 

michaelrc51

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A lot comes down to the GVWR vs. max axle weight argument. Your GVWR is 10,000# but the sum total of your axles is well above that. You'll find heated arguments from folks on both sides of the debate. The payload sticker on your truck is derived from the 10,000# GVWR. You can carry the pin weight of a 5th wheel that puts you above your payload but under the max your axle and tires are rated to safely carry. It's up to you to decide which parameter you feel safe adhering to.

This is basically what I am thinking. I had a previous thread about towing with my 1500 and ended up getting a 2500 CTD because of the weights of the trailer I was thinking about. Well, now I have a bigger truck and I guess my quest for a trailer has changed to a small 5er.

Now, I'm looking at 5ers and am realizing the one I want, while only 35' long, has a pin weight of 2650. My truck has 2k lbs payload capacity. With motorcycles and gear I'm thinking 3k pin weight, then add in 500 lbs of people in the truck and I'm 1500 over payload!

But, all my other numbers are completely within spec and I know the truck can handle it, it's very close to the same spec as a 3500SRW. The axle should be right around the GAWR for rear axle at 6500 lbs.(7k on 3500), front should be close but under the 6k lbs GAWR. The GVWR of the truck will definitely exceed 10k lbs., which is limited by the class. The trailer GVWR is 16,500 lbs., and I will definitely be under that weight. The GCWR will definitely be under the 25,300 lbs rating. I should be under the max towing rating of 15,540 lbs by 1k lbs as I am predicting...... Empty trailer is 11,800 lbs and 2700 lbs pin weight.

So, I am thinking it will be OK long as I have the correct load range tires even though my GVWR and payload for the truck will be over by a good 1k lbs, prob more like 1500 lbs.
I'm also going to add air bags.

Also, I know I can register my truck for a higher weight rating, would that keep me legal as long as I am within my registration confines even though it's a class limited 10k lbs?

Keystone Raptor 300MP 2009-2013 is the trailer I like.

Thoughts?
 

392DevilDog

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This is basically what I am thinking. I had a previous thread about towing with my 1500 and ended up getting a 2500 CTD because of the weights of the trailer I was thinking about. Well, now I have a bigger truck and I guess my quest for a trailer has changed to a small 5er.

Now, I'm looking at 5ers and am realizing the one I want, while only 35' long, has a pin weight of 2650. My truck has 2k lbs payload capacity. With motorcycles and gear I'm thinking 3k pin weight, then add in 500 lbs of people in the truck and I'm 1500 over payload!

But, all my other numbers are completely within spec and I know the truck can handle it, it's very close to the same spec as a 3500SRW. The axle should be right around the GAWR for rear axle at 6500 lbs.(7k on 3500), front should be close but under the 6k lbs GAWR. The GVWR of the truck will definitely exceed 10k lbs., which is limited by the class. The trailer GVWR is 16,500 lbs., and I will definitely be under that weight. The GCWR will definitely be under the 25,300 lbs rating. I should be under the max towing rating of 15,540 lbs by 1k lbs as I am predicting...... Empty trailer is 11,800 lbs and 2700 lbs pin weight.

So, I am thinking it will be OK long as I have the correct load range tires even though my GVWR and payload for the truck will be over by a good 1k lbs, prob more like 1500 lbs.
I'm also going to add air bags.

Keystone Raptor 300MP 2009-2013 is the trailer I like.

Thoughts?
What year and configuration Cummins do you have?

Assuming crew shortbed 4x4 as they are the most common. Using 2015 tow charts

Front GAWR is 5750

Rear GAWR is 6000

GVWR is 10000lbs.

The next numbers are if you have a Tradesman with no options.

Base weight front axle is 4724

Base weight rear axle is 2922

Capacity is 1026 lbs front and 3078 rear.

Now, remember as you load the truck...you will add to the front and the rear.

And you said 3k pin weight...guess this extra capacity everyone talks about...isn't enough either.

Unless you have a 2019 and there is about 200lbs more capacity.

You are definitely pushing the limits of the truck...even if you dismiss the 10k as arbitrary...which it really isn't but I do agree with there being more capacity.

Being 1500 over payload puts you near axle ratings too...5750 plus 6000 is 11750...slot of variables say that it is something other than axle rating limiting the trucks from the sum of the axles
 

michaelrc51

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What year and configuration Cummins do you have?

Assuming crew shortbed 4x4 as they are the most common. Using 2015 tow charts

Front GAWR is 5750

Rear GAWR is 6000

GVWR is 10000lbs.

The next numbers are if you have a Tradesman with no options.

Base weight front axle is 4724

Base weight rear axle is 2922

Capacity is 1026 lbs front and 3078 rear.

Now, remember as you load the truck...you will add to the front and the rear.

And you said 3k pin weight...guess this extra capacity everyone talks about...isn't enough either.

Unless you have a 2019 and there is about 200lbs more capacity.

You are definitely pushing the limits of the truck...even if you dismiss the 10k as arbitrary...which it really isn't but I do agree with there being more capacity.

I have a 2016 2500 CTD Mega Cab Limited short bed.
I got my number from Ram's site.

https://www.ramtrucks.com/content/dam/fca-brands/na/ramtrucks/en_us/towing/2016 Ram 2500.pdf

Yeah, it'll definitely be close. It'd definitely be over on payload and GVWR but should be right around the GAWR ratings.

I don't dismiss it but we all know that is class limited and the truck is definitely capable of a good bit more, which would also affect the payload.
 

mtofell

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I'm generally on board with exceeding GVWR but axle weights are nothing to play with. I personally won't go near those just out of concern for safety. Everyone can argue to eternity about the legal implications of exceeding GVWR but axle ratings are the physical limits of what the tires and axles (and brakes and frame, etc, etc) are listed at by the engineers that designed the parts. Of course, there is a factor of safety planned in but that's just not a good place to be playing around.

Front axle won't change more than 50-100# in most cases when you load up the 5th so if you're planning on some pin weight to go there instead of the rear axle forget it.
Also, be careful with hitches and the megacab. I thought I once read that megacabs weren't supposed to haul 5th wheels but since it never mattered to me I never really confirmed it. Also, when factoring weight don't forget the hitch - my slider weighs about 225#.

That trailer is A LOT for any SRW truck if fully loaded. Somewhere around 15,000# loaded weight is my own personal threshold to go to DRW. Since I have zero interest in owning/driving/parking a DRW I just keep my 5th wheel shopping to trailers that will be under 15,000# when loaded (note I don't say trailer GVWR since just becuase a trailer CAN be loaded to a certain amount doesn't mean it WILL be loaded to that - blindly buying a truck to a trailer GVWR is one of the more poor pieces of advice that regularly get circulated on the internet).
 

392DevilDog

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I have a 2016 2500 CTD Mega Cab Limited short bed.
I got my number from Ram's site.

https://www.ramtrucks.com/content/dam/fca-brands/na/ramtrucks/en_us/towing/2016 Ram 2500.pdf

Yeah, it'll definitely be close. It'd definitely be over on payload and GVWR but should be right around the GAWR ratings.

I don't dismiss it but we all know that is class limited and the truck is definitely capable of a good bit more, which would also affect the payload.
A limited pushes those numbers pretty good. A tradesman is pushing it. I would be very interested to see a CAT scale slip when you get it all hooked up.

Your 78 pounds left over on rear axle rating if you had a tradesman...it is probably negative 50 with a limited...and that is max capacity.

Hope all works well, that is alot of weight.
 

392DevilDog

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I have a 2016 2500 CTD Mega Cab Limited short bed.
I got my number from Ram's site.

https://www.ramtrucks.com/content/dam/fca-brands/na/ramtrucks/en_us/towing/2016 Ram 2500.pdf

Yeah, it'll definitely be close. It'd definitely be over on payload and GVWR but should be right around the GAWR ratings.

I don't dismiss it but we all know that is class limited and the truck is definitely capable of a good bit more, which would also affect the payload.
Okay, so Limited Mega Cab changes this greatly.

I am just trying to show how this mysterious extra capacity disappears pretty fast too.

So, you say your truck has 2k payload. What does your door jab say.

Take that from 10000 to get base weight.

With the 2k that would mean the truck weighs 8000lbs before you get in it. Please verify this is the base weight.

So the numbers again.

Front GAWR is 6000

Rear GAWR is 6500

GVWR is 10000lbs.

Capacity is 12500.


CHART Base weight front axle is 4907

CHART Base weight rear axle is 3098

CHART TRUCK WEIGHT is 8006 (your limited will weigh more than this)

Capacity is 1093lbs front and 3402 rear.

Total capacity 4495.

Very interesting how much higher the axles are on the Mega Cab.

So you do have a better capacity for the load intended but it is still very close.

Anxiously awaiting the door jamb number.

I feel better now with the extra capacity of the axles. I have kicked around the idea of a mega cab.
 

michaelrc51

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I'm generally on board with exceeding GVWR but axle weights are nothing to play with. I personally won't go near those just out of concern for safety. Everyone can argue to eternity about the legal implications of exceeding GVWR but axle ratings are the physical limits of what the tires and axles (and brakes and frame, etc, etc) are listed at by the engineers that designed the parts. Of course, there is a factor of safety planned in but that's just not a good place to be playing around.

Front axle won't change more than 50-100# in most cases when you load up the 5th so if you're planning on some pin weight to go there instead of the rear axle forget it.
Also, be careful with hitches and the megacab. I thought I once read that megacabs weren't supposed to haul 5th wheels but since it never mattered to me I never really confirmed it. Also, when factoring weight don't forget the hitch - my slider weighs about 225#.

That trailer is A LOT for any SRW truck if fully loaded. Somewhere around 15,000# loaded weight is my own personal threshold to go to DRW. Since I have zero interest in owning/driving/parking a DRW I just keep my 5th wheel shopping to trailers that will be under 15,000# when loaded (note I don't say trailer GVWR since just becuase a trailer CAN be loaded to a certain amount doesn't mean it WILL be loaded to that - blindly buying a truck to a trailer GVWR is one of the more poor pieces of advice that regularly get circulated on the internet).

All the research I have done has said it's ok.

I am going with a B&W turnover ball and Andersen ultimate aluminum fifth wheel hitch. The hitch weighs 32 lbs.

The trailer, realistically should be well under 15k lbs fully loaded. I'm thinking 14,500 lbs max. It will be for track days, 3-4 sportbikes in the garage and maybe a couple hundred pounds of gear. Empty the trailer is 11,800, theoretically it should be under 14k lbs.
At 11,800 empty and 2700 pin weight that equates to 22% and at 14k lbs that would equate to 3k lbs. pin weight. If that's directly on the axle at 3,048 lbs empty over the axle(which a small amount would be transferred to the front axle), it's still at under 6100lbs for the rear axle.

There's no way I'm fully loading that trailer to 16,500lbs. It's going to be used for trackdays with me and a couple of other dudes and then when I use it with my wife and kid it will be way less weight. I won't be running with full tanks. In fact since I have become aware of this, I won't fill up the gas station tanks until I am really close to my destination, if they're needed at all.
 

michaelrc51

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Okay, so Limited Mega Cab changes this greatly.

I am just trying to show how this mysterious extra capacity disappears pretty fast too.

So, you say your truck has 2k payload. What does your door jab say.

Take that from 10000 to get base weight.

With the 2k that would mean the truck weighs 8000lbs before you get in it. Please verify this is the base weight.

So the numbers again.

Front GAWR is 6000

Rear GAWR is 6500

GVWR is 10000lbs.

Capacity is 12500.


CHART Base weight front axle is 4907

CHART Base weight rear axle is 3098

CHART TRUCK WEIGHT is 8006 (your limited will weigh more than this)

Capacity is 1093lbs front and 3402 rear.

Total capacity 4495.

Very interesting how much higher the axles are on the Mega Cab.

So you do have a better capacity for the load intended but it is still very close.

Anxiously awaiting the door jamb number.

I feel better now with the extra capacity of the axles. I have kicked around the idea of a mega cab.

Door jamb says 1800lbs capacity
 

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