Help, Cam / lifter change 4 miles truck stops

[rod7515]

2011 Ram 5.7 Hemi. I did the cam/lifter replacement and all went well. Also replaced the oil pump with hellcat pump, replaced the VVT solenoid and the timing chain and gear along with new phaser.
Pulled the fuel pump fuse and and cranked over at 10 seconds intervals to prime for the oil pump. After about 6 or so cranks I replaced the fuse and the engine immediately started. Lifters rattled for about 1-2 seconds then got quiet. Engine sat and idled great. Topped off the coolant and let it idle for about 20 minutes while I watched temp and oil gauges. All good. The coolant had settled in and the heater was working so I knew the core was flushed from air pockets.
Time for test drive. Went about 2 miles at 40-45 and running great. Tried kick down and downshifted smooth and motor is very quiet. Slowed down and turned and went about 1.5 miles At 35-40 mph. Very slight upgrade went to accelerate and truck had shut off. Drifted onto side road. Tried to start and it cranked only. No fire. cranked more no fire.
Had AAA tow me home. Will check it on Monday. Being honest it sounds like may have jumped time. Not sure how that would be possible. I can tell you I torqued the cam plate, phaser, the tensioner and guide and oil pump. I’ve worked as a mechanic for 30+ years and I know that sucking misfire sound when cranking and timing has jumped.
‘My parts were from summit racing, Melling cam, sealed power lifters, Melling phaser, Melling chain gears and tensioner. Mopar hellcat pump, Melling pickup. All OEM replacements except for oil pump as that was the upgrade to get better lubrication.
Guess I will pull valve covers first and look at valve movement then go from there.
Any other ideas or suggestions?
Thanks Rod

 

[jws123]

Its probably something stupid but check compression that will tell ya if you jumped time because you would of bent a valve not much room for error when it comes to timing on a hemi. I had a truck come to me once someone over torqued the cam phaser bolt so it stretched and after a 100 miles it sheared off the cam pin.

 

[rod7515]

JWS123, thanks for the Reply. So here would be a question about your sheared cam bolt. When that happened did it take out the cam index pin? If so are they replaceable or does the cam need to be purchased.
I did torque that bolt to 90 ft lbs as required. But if something happened in the timing area that is the only thing I could see going wrong.
Also did it bent valves in more than one cylinder? Im se it would be at least 2 or 3.
thanks Rod

 

[jws123]

JWS123, thanks for the Reply. So here would be a question about your sheared cam bolt. When that happened did it take out the cam index pin? If so are they replaceable or does the cam need to be purchased.
I did torque that bolt to 90 ft lbs as required. But if something happened in the timing area that is the only thing I could see going wrong.
Also did it bent valves in more than one cylinder? Im se it would be at least 2 or 3.
thanks Rod

Yes it sheared the locating pin its replaceable I have a whole bag of them if it somehow ends up being that. It bent few intake and exhaust valves had the heads rebuilt did you scan it for codes? Not really common for these things to jump time its a rather simple setup only thing i could see if it did jump time a guide fell off or ya forgot to pull the pin to release tensioner.

 

[rod7515]

Yes i did scan it for codes and there are no codes. The pin was definately pulled as its on my tool box. Now that you ask about codes i would think if it were a cam bolt i would get a code because there is a sensor or pickup for the phaser on the side of the timing cover?
The worse thing is i cant look at it until tuesday and its driving me crazy thinking about it. Lol.
thanks for your help. I should know more by middle of the week.
Rod

 

[rod7515]

I didn’t have much time this week to work on the truck but I was able to get the drivers side valve cover off and verified that the rockers are opening and closing the valves. Now I know that doesn’t tell me much but it probably removes the possibility of the cam bolt shearing off.
Before I take the timing cover back off should I check anything else?
Could something have failed in the phaser that could cause timing to be way off?
Could using the hellcat oil pump and having higher oil pressure have caused any problems?
The truck ran great for the 20-25 minute warmup and then 4 mile drive. It didn’t make any noises when it shut down although I doubt you would have heard anything even if it did jump time and valves would hit piston tops.
Just looking for thoughts and ideas until I get it apart to verify.
One more thing, once I get timing cover off how many times do I have to manually turn engine over to verify it didn’t jump time? May be many until marks line back up. When do I stop turning if marks don’t line back up? 20, 30, 40?
Thanks, give me your thoughts.
‘Rod

 

[jws123]

Before you tear anything else apart check compression verify spark fuel ect.

 

[rod7515]

I forgot to say in last post i did check compression on cyl's 1 n 3. Had zero so i stopped with that ugly feeling in my stomach. I'll check the rest later today then pull the frt cover.
Thanks Rod

 

[DILLIGAF]

I dont remember how many turns it takes ,but its a lot.

I just used a cam degree tool instead. much faster and it double checks your work.

HC Oil pump wouldn't cause this either.

 

[rod7515]

How do i verify the spark with coil packs?
Thanks Rod

 

[rod7515]

Can someone explain the cam phazer and how it works Or give me a place to get information on them. Can they go bad? How can i check mine?
I checked compression in cylinders 1, 3, 2, 4, 6. All at zero. So I pulled the front cover off this morning Timing chain, guide and tensioner all in place. I put the crank bolt back in then turned over the motor. Went about 1-1.5 turns and I felt a positive stop and crankshaft wouldn’t turn any more. Tried again but wouldn’t go. turned crank backwards 1/8 turn then forward and it went. Then about 3/4 turn more and it stops. wont go forward. This time as I turn back not even a 1/8 turn I see the pin in the phaser clockspring change position. When I go forward I see the clockspring tighten but cam bolt didn’t move at first so I think something is wrong in the phaser operation?

it’s a brand new Melling OEM replacement. When I was putting it together the first time I was told i Didn’t need to do anything except line it up with the cam pin and bolt hole. Could it be defective?
Now I’m sure I have bent valves. Has anyone ever dealt with Melling on a defective part?
‘what else could it be? Am I on the right track?
Thanks Rod

 

[rod7515]

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Rod

 

[jws123]

I am not sure about the cam phaser causing this however something for sure happened if your having compression issues and verify all rockers/valves move at a minumum you need to rip the heads off see how many bent valves you have.

 

[rod7515]

Definately the heads are going to have to come off. The question is how does the phaser operate? is it controlled by oil pressure and is the hellcat pump causing it to advance to far causing valves to hit or did I just get a defective phaser? I guess I need to call the Melling Corp and see what their thinking is. I am sure no matter what they wont stand behind valve replacement. Im sure they will replace the phaser itself but I need to know why and what caused this failure. The machine shop said they will tuen the heads around in 1 day once they have the heads and new valves. Hoping to get some answers. I purchased a used Yukon today to tow my mowers each day until I get this resolved. I cant believe I now own a GM product. Ugh!
Rod

 

[jws123]

The phaser is controlled by oil pressure via the vvt solenoid sits right under the intake manifold your oil pump shouldnt have caused a issue have seen plenty of people run non stock oil pumps. What I dont know is lets say the cam phaser failed would it let the timing change enough to bend valves? that part I have No idea. Hopefully someone else chimes in I have never personally had a timing issue on these motors its prty straight foward have rebuilt quite a few.

 

[Yardbird]

I would pull the phaser and crank pulley and check to make sure one of the keys hasn't sheared or bent.

I don't know if the Hemi had a keyway or pin on the cam, but I once did have a cam bolt back slightly loose, and the dowel pin slipped out enough to throw the timing off to where it bent an intake valve.

 

[Lee Peterson]

The hellcat oil pump shouldn't have hurt anything lots of guys running that mod, the phaser when maxed out shouldn't cause piston to valve contact unless you have a performance cam. The cam pin most likely sheard from improper torque on bolt or the timing was off a tooth.

 

[rod7515]

I didn’t have any time this past week to remove the heads. I plan on getting them off in the next 2-3 days. Then I will remove the hellcat pump and check the timing marks on crank and cam before removing the chain assembly. My concern is what caused this? Why did it run for 25 minutes in driveway then go 4 miles before this happened. once the heads are off and I verify the chain and gears I will talk with tech support from melling. Hopefully they can give me some answers if I haven’t found anything by then.
‘here’s another question. can the weight of the oil make any difference in the operation of the vvt solenoid or phaser?
thanks Rod

 

[rod7515]

Pulled the heads today. Every valve, intake and exhaust on both heads have a mark on them from touching the pistons. I took heads to machine shop to be redone. He said if they touched they will probably be bent.
I turned the engine over until timing chain and gears were matched up again. They are still in time. Top gear at 12 o’clock with double mark in chain on both sides of phaser mark and lower gear with mark on chain on tooth with mark. I knew that’s what I would find.
so that means the only possible problem is either the phaser or VVT solenoid.
is there any relearn procedure for the pcm when the phaser is replaced?
I called summit because I bought everything from them except the VVT solenoid. That came from federated. They are telling me I need to call Melling since it’s their phaser and get an RMA to return parts to them. So tomorrow I’ll be on the phone with melling.
im interested in figuring out what went wrong so I dont have this issue again.
‘please give me any knowledge you may have. These heads will be expensive to repair and I don’t want to do them again.
Thanks Rodney

 

[DILLIGAF]

There's literally a MMX YouTube video with steps by steps. The only way to screw these HEMIs up is not following it.