Interesting tidbit about 8 speed fluid at the end of this .

[Wild one]

Hell Raiser Performance
6h ·
Some more exciting news for the Dodge 8 speed world coming soon from Hell Raiser Transmission! With the help of some friends who helped design the 8 speed in our cars we’ll be developing a seamless TransBrake that’ll be available to use on all factory 8 speed driven vehicles produced by FCA. No mechanical or hydraulic modifications needed! Also, don’t forget about our transmission thermostat bypass that we have in stock that severely reduces fluid temperatures from hazardous levels to safe temperatures as declared by our friends at ZF helping us with this project. If your transmission is running 185*+ you are doing damage to your transmission. Also, just for consumer knowledge!!! There are NO aftermarket equivalence to the factory ZF8 Lifeguard fluid or Mopar 8/9 Speed Fluids! Running conventional ATF is damaging your 8 speed!

 

[Burla]

Conventional atf is old school stuff like mercon III and stuff, atf-4 should be synthetic. I wonder if they are talking about real conventional atf or modern synthetic atf, which are making more and more visc now like the thin zf8 fluid.

 

[Burla]

Anyhow, I think people with the 8 speed should stay with the green stuff anyhow. But to each their own, clearly some guys are making it work.

 

[Wild one]

Anyhow, I think people with the 8 speed should stay with the green stuff anyhow. But to each their own, clearly some guys are making it work.

I think on a stock truck you can probably get away with some of the cheaper aftermarket fluids for the 8 speed,but you might be taking your chances though. It's once you start throwing some horsepower and torque at the tranny,then you'd be wise to stick with the factory fluid whether that be the Life guard or the Mopar 8/9 speed ZF fluid. My truck on the killer tune-up puts down 572 lb-ft of torque at 3200 rpm at the wheels,even with a conservative estimate that puts it well in excess of 650 lb-ft at the crank which far exceeds the 516 lb-ft the tranny is rated to,so i'm a firm believer in sticking with the high dollar fluids,lol

 

[Tim Garceau]

Yeah I saw the ending of their ad, not buying that there is no other fluid supplement for a transmission that’s been available for 12 years.

Would be nice to see data behind their claims, one can only speculate some sort of fluid monopoly with ZF/Mopar without it.

 

[Wild one]

Yeah I saw the ending of their ad, not buying that there is no other fluid supplement for a transmission that’s been available for 12 years.

Would be nice to see data behind their claims, one can only speculate some sort of fluid monopoly with ZF/Mopar without it.

I know the guys tuning the high horsepower toys have ran into slip with the aftermarket fluids Tim,so take that for what you want,but to save a few bucks on fluid,and then down the road having to replace the tranny because you wanted to save a few bucks on the fluid,doesn't seem very productive to me,lol. Odds are the majority of guys will only ever do 1 fluid and filter swap while they own the vehicle,so to save a few bucks on the fluid is it really worth it .Whats another 100 bucks on fluid over the lifetime of the truck,works out to probably less then cent per mile differance,hell you spend probably a 100 times that a day on coffee,lol

 

[Tim Garceau]

Not price related at all, it’s that Amsoil has one of if not the most vigorous testing procedures for their motor oil and a million mile guarantee on their ATF chemistry. Their engineers have R&D on the low viscosity ATF to 280 degrees with a 60k mile confidence.

Slipping in a ZF clutch is due to line pressure and not coefficient of friction in non-contaminated ATF, which tells me they were using the wrong fluid type/viscosity.

Once my Eaton is installed and Jay sees delta between input and output shaft, I’ll immediately drop $200 for ZF and their unicorn blood.

 

[clint440]

You guys figure it out so I know what do lol

At 56k so wondering what and when to do next? Amsoil has always been my go to for anything driveline related....But the germans usually know whats best to.

 

[Wild one]

Not price related at all, it’s that Amsoil has one of if not the most vigorous testing procedures for their motor oil and a million mile guarantee on their ATF chemistry. Their engineers have R&D on the low viscosity ATF to 280 degrees with a 60k mile confidence.

Slipping in a ZF clutch is due to line pressure and not coefficient of friction in non-contaminated ATF, which tells me they were using the wrong fluid type/viscosity.

On e my Eaton is installed and Jay sees slipping between input and output shaft, I’ll immediately drop $200 for ZF and their unicorn blood.

I'm not sure if Amzoil exhibited any slip,as i doubt it was the fluid being used ,so it's probably acceptable to use,i think the slip issues were showing up with the other popular fluid being used these days. You can slip the clutches under high horsepower even with increased line pressures,that's one of the reasons why the 75 has another clutch and steel in the drums compared to the 70,to combat slip and give more clutch surface area for holding torque.

 

[Tim Garceau]

Oh certainly Rick, I’m not near the 516+ continuously rated torque that the power adder’s have. Yet, plus there is still a few quarts of magic potion still left in it!

Will definitely be following the bypass next spring. I don’t get aggressive with the trans until it’s near operating temperature, so cooling it down is intriguing for performance. Would love to see back to back runs before/after the change.

 

[chrisbh17]

My trans has run higher than 185 before. I guess its toast?

 

[Wild one]

Oh certainly Rick, I’m not near the 516+ continuously rated torque that the power adder’s have. Yet, plus there is still a few quarts of magic potion still left in it!

Will definitely be following the bypass next spring. I don’t get aggressive with the trans until it’s near operating temperature, so cooling it down is intriguing for performance. Would love to see back to back runs before after the change.

I know my 8 speed works better and shifts far less now that i've got it running around the high 160's low 170's Tim. Heater output sucks these days,but the tranny does seem to be liking the cooler operating temp,but you'll freeze to death in the truck once the outdoor temp drops down to the 30F mark,lol.Beauty of running a 160 thermostat and the PPE pan is my tranny temps have taken a noticable drop,lol.

 

[Wild one]

For you guys who aren't believing Charles,he's actually talking and getting advice from the ZF engineers who designed the transmission,he's not just pulling these numbers out of his ass.He's also working on having billet clutch drums built to replace the light duty tin clutch drums,and hopefully by this time next week,he'll have a transmission thermostat available for the trucks,that replaces FCA's goofy thermal management unit ,right now the thermostat he has available is for the cars version of the 8HP70 which doesn't use the thermal management unit to heat the tranny fluid.

 

[MRFREEZE57]

My trans has run higher than 185 before. I guess its toast?

that is about what mine runs at when up to temp.

 

[seabrook]

i guess im drunk but you stated this thread but now ur talking about charles so now i’m confused lol

 

[Wild one]

i guess im drunk but you stated this thread but now ur talking about charles so now i’m confused lol

Charles Barrett is Hell Raiser,not me,i'm only passing on what he's doing for the 8 speed.
I always try to help out the small business owner if i can,and i also figure anybody who's putting some power through their 8 speed transmission will be interested in what he's doing to help keep the transmissions happy

 

[seabrook]

Charles Barrett is Hell Raiser,not me,i'm only passing on what he's doing for the 8 speed.
I always try to help out the small business owner if i can,and i also figure anybody who's putting some power through their 8 speed transmission will be interested in what he's doing to help keep the transmissions happy

ok cool yes i see that you do that a lot and i think it’s great!!!

 

[brentwasham]

I live in south Texas where temperatures are 70's to 90's around the clock much of the year. I'm running the Pentastar in a quad cab virtually never loaded. My trans temps are routinely 10 to 15 degrees below engine temperature, which puts me close to 200 after warmup virtually all the time. Maybe on the coldest days of the year it will stay below 185. In the summer my coolant temperature commonly reaches 215-220 degrees, sometimes goes higher, without boiling over. I find it difficult to believe that FCA/ZF engineers would support a vehicle design with significantly reduced transmission life because its operated in more southern climates. How many miles of reduced use are we talking about under light duty, soft-pedal use? Does this mean a 200K mile transmission is reduced to 100K miles solely because its operated in the south? What about tropical climates? Also I would think converting to a 180 degree thermostat would radically change the emissions and fuel economy operating design of the engine, and could eventually cause performance problems. The original post on replacing your transmission temp management system reeks of sales talk aimed at mod-crazy owners who think they know more than the engineers who designed the transmission. Racing and even heavy towing are different environments, I just don't think everyday use requires changes to a production vehicle causing it to operate outside of factory spec. Aren't product pitches supposed to be off-limits in the blog rules?

 

[chrisbh17]

I live in south Texas where temperatures are 70's to 90's around the clock much of the year. I'm running the Pentastar in a quad cab virtually never loaded. My trans temps are routinely 10 to 15 degrees below engine temperature, which puts me close to 200 after warmup virtually all the time. Maybe on the coldest days of the year it will stay below 185. In the summer my coolant temperature commonly reaches 215-220 degrees, sometimes goes higher, without boiling over. I find it difficult to believe that FCA/ZF engineers would support a vehicle design with significantly reduced transmission life because its operated in more southern climates. How many miles of reduced use are we talking about under light duty, soft-pedal use? Does this mean a 200K mile transmission is reduced to 100K miles solely because its operated in the south? What about tropical climates? Also I would think converting to a 180 degree thermostat would radically change the emissions and fuel economy operating design of the engine, and could eventually cause performance problems. The original post on replacing your transmission temp management system reeks of sales talk aimed at mod-crazy owners who think they know more than the engineers who designed the transmission. Racing and even heavy towing are different environments, I just don't think everyday use requires changes to a production vehicle causing it to operate outside of factory spec. Aren't product pitches supposed to be off-limits in the blog rules?

FWIW there have been more than a few stories on the forum of people who had overheating 8 speeds (like 240+ degrees) where the only real issue was that the thermostat hanging off the side of it broke and hindered coolant flow through it. A replacement thermoblock would have fixed the issue......and IIRC the dealer refused to do that. Oh and they tend not to do what ZF says is necessary and flush out the trans cooler and lines, because when the block breaks it lets junk into there. If you dont clean it out you chance it messing up the next trans.

Im not thrilled with the 185-ish mine runs at, but Im not about to completely bypass the thermoblock. It would be nicer, I think, to have one that works at a little lower temp, maybe to keep the trans down around 170-ish. ZF does say, however, that ideal temp range is about 180. My only worry is that running at those temps there isnt a whole lot of room if something goes wrong, like a busted thermoblock.

 

[Wild one]

I live in south Texas where temperatures are 70's to 90's around the clock much of the year. I'm running the Pentastar in a quad cab virtually never loaded. My trans temps are routinely 10 to 15 degrees below engine temperature, which puts me close to 200 after warmup virtually all the time. Maybe on the coldest days of the year it will stay below 185. In the summer my coolant temperature commonly reaches 215-220 degrees, sometimes goes higher, without boiling over. I find it difficult to believe that FCA/ZF engineers would support a vehicle design with significantly reduced transmission life because its operated in more southern climates. How many miles of reduced use are we talking about under light duty, soft-pedal use? Does this mean a 200K mile transmission is reduced to 100K miles solely because its operated in the south? What about tropical climates? Also I would think converting to a 180 degree thermostat would radically change the emissions and fuel economy operating design of the engine, and could eventually cause performance problems. The original post on replacing your transmission temp management system reeks of sales talk aimed at mod-crazy owners who think they know more than the engineers who designed the transmission. Racing and even heavy towing are different environments, I just don't think everyday use requires changes to a production vehicle causing it to operate outside of factory spec. Aren't product pitches supposed to be off-limits in the blog rules?

FYI for you,only the trucks have the thermal management pre-heater,the cars including the 485 HP Scatpack cars don't pre-heat the fluid ,only the trucks do,and it was added to the trucks strictly to meet the EPA milege numbers.
Charles has also been dealing with the engineers behind the 8 speed at ZF,and they're telling him the optimal operating temp for longevity and holding power is 160F,same as pretty well every other automatic transmission built. I'm guessing the transmission holds the most power at 160F,and probably returns the best milege and most seamless shifts at 185/190F.I know my 8 speed is alot happier now that i've got it's operating temps down to the high 160's/low 170's,the shifts are a little more crisper,and it doesn't downshift as much on hills as it did when it ran at 190.Take that as you will.I'm more inclined to think the engineers behind the transmission know more about it,then all of us put together,and if they're saying 160F is optimal operating temp to keep it alive,i'm gonna believe them.But then again that's me,lol. I'm not sure what you're thinking is about product pitches,but it's a bit whacked. Headers/oil/lights/tires/lift kits/lowering kits/brake pads /brake rotors /cold air intakes /superchargers /AlfaOBD etc.,you name it are all pitched on here,in fact it'd be a **** poor forum,if you couldn't mention products or suppliers wouldn't it,there'd be absolutely no information for anybody to use to their advantage. Maybe do a little reading first before you think you know everything,and with that,you have a good day sir.