Lifter Replacement.

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HEMIMANN

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I know this comment will incite a riot, but I'm gonna do it anyway. Full disclosure - I have no cultural or financial interest in ANY lubricant company. As a lifelong engineer, my quest is always to search for the most cost effective designs.

Lubricant film strength tests show Amsoil is significantly stronger than Red Line, for a given viscosity. Since they both are similar price, I am going with Amsoil.

Which has the most dry lubricant addivtive, and how much it helps, is up for discussion. PUP elected to put a whole bunch of soluble moly additive in. Think they were concerned with somebody? (FCA contract, perhaps?) Cam lubrication was the basis for ZDDP (zinc) antiwear additive, which has been cut back from poisoning exhaust catalysts from blowby gases. But too much ZDDP isn't good either, as it gets too active and starts eating too much metal away. Moly is inert (not metallically active) and serves as a coating, as in chassis greases. Is it effective here? I don't think anybody knows. I do know there a a number of lifter / cam failures in forum using the high moly PUP, so I would say no. At least it doesn't prevent all failures.

In terms of viscosity, my estimate is 0W-40 was a hunch specification, not knowledge. My assessment is 5W-30 is the best compromise with highest film strength as well as other attributes (low sheardown, low volatility, low cranking vis, etc. etc.). That said, I'll start with 0W-40 before I consider moving to 5W-30.

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HEMIMANN

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Picking a oil is a lot like betting on sports. Everyone seems to have an educated opinion. I decided to try Redline after reading through this post. Feel free to debunk.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/molybdenum-cam-wear-and-hemi-tick.275471/

Thanks for this. 6 pages of analysis and commentary will take awhile to digest. If you're not familiar with 540rat's test work, here is his blog. He posts in various forums as well. I read his report in detail some 5 years ago, along with other's comments, and agreed his work was valid and accurate.

I created a spreadsheet summary of it so you don't have to wade through 466 pages, but this forum doesn't have a tool to attach files - only photos. Amsoil does contain moly, but not as much as others. It also as some zinc, as do others (ZDDP?).

So, until I know of a method to attach a file, here is a link to all 466 pages of 540rat test results.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

P.S. - I see burla on BITOG also. I am catching up to you guys - 1st HEMI was a 2012. Had the tick, but at the time, BITOG said to use PUP and it would go away. So I switched from decades of Mobil 1 to PUP and tick did go away. That and the "cleaner than Mobil 1" campaign. Retired end 2015, turned in my work PC. Didn't get back to forums from home till last year. Shocking to see all this. BITOG turned nasty, I quit and got banned. Ram Forum much better.
 
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buckeyexx

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I’m on my second oil change running Amsoil 0w40 in my 6.4. I have noticed as of late that it is come and go issue especially on start up. One morning it is quite and the next it’s very noticeable lifter tick. I just ordered some lubegard biotech and will run that with the Amsoil in hopes of helping. It runs as smooth as butter other wise.


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theviking

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I’m on my second oil change running Amsoil 0w40 in my 6.4. I have noticed as of late that it is come and go issue especially on start up. One morning it is quite and the next it’s very noticeable lifter tick. I just ordered some lubegard biotech and will run that with the Amsoil in hopes of helping. It runs as smooth as butter other wise.


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My truck has done the startup tick thing for years. Will be curious to see if it all goes away when the cam/lifter swap is done.
 

HEMIMANN

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Ok, I read half the 14 page BITOG thread, so far. Burla started it and posted a lot. Moly additive did not appear to me to be the independent variable that quieted the hemi tick for users - PUP and some other oils were also chocked full of moly, and some with zinc, none quieted it, and some of these engines failed.

But Red Line did quiet the tick in seemingly all cases and no reported failures. So far as I can tell, the lubricity of the oil (via film strength / HTHS / HTFS, or dry film additives) doesn't seem to be the key difference. Amsoil was mentioned as not quieting the tick, I didn't see a mention of failure on Amsoil, however.

The fact only Red Line worked seems to me that the only independent variable is Red Line is the only motor oil based on Polyol Ester Base Stocks. Chemistry Journals indicate Polyol Ester Oils have strong affinity for metal surfaces. I'd suggest this is the key to Red Line band-aiding the tick failure to the extent possible - it clings to the surfaces better after engine shutdown, upon startup, and during idle, all conditions which minimize lifter lubrication.

I appreciate the link to the 3 yr old BITOG discussion. Red Line and a prayer, it is. Since there wasn't much discussion about viscosity grades, I guess I'll just start with the 0W-40, suggest OP do the same.

Following is key comment from Burla in the 14 page thread:
"My opinion, on paper Amsoil looks great, you can make the argument better then redline in many ways such as a longer oci. Many guys on our board still ride and die with Amsoil, if not for the results Amsoil would likely be my ride or die as well. But, we had guys test and test again redline versus amsoil SS in the same truck, he only had his tick quieted with the redline."
 

HEMIMANN

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I was going to ask why 5W-40 when FCA requires MS-12633 (0W-40).

I went to Red Line website. Compared to 0W-40, 5W-40 has 3 points lower NOACK, 0.4 points higher HTHS. 5W-40 has the same low volatility of the 5W-30, but higher film strength than either the 5W-30 or the 0W-40!

The only "sacrifice", if you will, is a bit less ultra cold temp pumpability. We're talking -30 degrees left outside all night. Not the case for most, I'd wager.

Thanks from all of us for insight into best vis selection! (5W-40)
 

WY.Ram

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Unfortunately, MDS isn't the cause, so don't expect non-MDS lifters to fix it. More important is the brand and quality of the lifter. Make sure you use the best that members have identified. I personally don't recall what it is.

Supposedly Ram / FCA sourced new / improved lifters from a new vendor starting with 2017 model build year. I'm still concerned, so upping lubricant quality. Many failures on here despite using the corporate supplier recommendation (PUP 0W-40). Lab test results show lubricity isn't that good compared to 5W-30's and other brands, so I'm changing over to highest film strength oil = Amsoil. I'll start with their 0W-40, but still think that's the wrong approach, having been a Lubrication Engineer for Mobil. It looks to me like they were throwing viscosity numbers against the wall that looked the best on paper without really assessing what the lubricant needs of their cam design is.
I respectfully disagree with MDS not being a root cause. MDS may not be the only cause but it has the potential to play a key roll in many of the lifter tick and lifter failure situations.

I have read of non MDS cylinders having the misfire, and losing a cam lobe etc. Those instances are not in reference here. NonMDS cylinders being 2,3,5,8.

I completely agree with high quality lifters but if they are MDS even quality won't help. The MDS system switches the MDS lifter between a engaged or disengaged state. The change of state is actuated by a solenoid.

A common scenario with the MDS system in Hemis is when the solenoid that controls the lock has failed partially or entirely leaving the lifter disengaged. The ECM believes the lifter is engaged at higher rpm when it is not. Here, the internal pin that locks the lifter body to the plunger is still disengaged when the engine rpm goes up. In this failure mode, the roller follows the cam lobe, until it reaches an engine speed where it can't, and the roller impacts the cam repeatedly on the lobe. Eventually the needle bearings and the lobe surface become damaged to the point of failure.

Non MDS lifters will solve this problem and is highly recommended that if doing a cam lifter repair or swap that MDS delete be implemented in order to not have to do so again. This does require an ECU flash

'16 Wagon Greene tune feed'n & fire'n 6.4L with 6spd 5.13 AAM, 37" KM3, -12mm Fuels Thuren Overland, DOR, Purple Cranium CAI, ARH, Solo Mach44 z36, EBC Custom vinyl AVS, 4% tint Morimoto, Rigid, Diode Dynamics AlfaOBD, Diablo, Nanny Kill, Locker bypass .................
 
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HEMIMANN

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WY.Ram - there are posters in another Ram site that had non MDS with the same lifter failure. Google & you will find it.

I understand how Daimler's MDS works.
 

WY.Ram

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WY.Ram - there are posters in another Ram site that had non MDS with the same lifter failure. Google & you will find it.

I understand how Daimler's MDS works.
Apologies, In no way did I mean to imply that you did not know. I was only adding for completness and any readers who would like to know.

MDS is definitely not the only cause of roller lifter failure. The weak link in these engines is the roller lifter. But I strongly believe my roller lifters are far better protected, engine far more robust. with the MDS system deleted. Could still suffer a roller lifter failure, no doubt.

I super appreciate your digging through the data with your determination of the 5w-40 Redline being a top choice. Thats definitely where I'm staying.

I am now more confident then ever with my MDS delete, Hellcat lifters and 5w-40 Redline, my valvetrain is going to go the distance (at WOT) :)

'16 Wagon Greene tune feed'n & fire'n 6.4L with 6spd 5.13 AAM, 37" KM3, -12mm Fuels Thuren Overland, DOR, Purple Cranium CAI, ARH, Solo Mach44 z36, EBC Custom vinyl AVS, 4% tint Morimoto, Rigid, Diode Dynamics AlfaOBD, Diablo, Nanny Kill, Locker bypass .................
 

HEMIMANN

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Apologies, In no way did I mean to imply that you did not know. I was only adding for completness and any readers who would like to know.

MDS is definitely not the only cause of roller lifter failure. The weak link in these engines is the roller lifter. But I strongly believe my roller lifters are far better protected, engine far more robust. with the MDS system deleted. Could still suffer a roller lifter failure, no doubt.

I super appreciate your digging through the data with your determination of the 5w-40 Redline being a top choice. Thats definitely where I'm staying.

I am now more confident then ever with my MDS delete, Hellcat lifters and 5w-40 Redline, my valvetrain is going to go the distance (at WOT) :)

'16 Wagon Greene tune feed'n & fire'n 6.4L with 6spd 5.13 AAM, 37" KM3, -12mm Fuels Thuren Overland, DOR, Purple Cranium CAI, ARH, Solo Mach44 z36, EBC Custom vinyl AVS, 4% tint Morimoto, Rigid, Diode Dynamics AlfaOBD, Diablo, Nanny Kill, Locker bypass .................

No offense understood or taken. Sometimes it's difficult to express true intent in writing.

It's also tough to diagnose a design problem without assistance from the designer - which is why these Forums exist - we are on our own to help each other cope. Nobody knows for sure the root cause of the failure. We all just have it narrowed down to a location - the roller lifter.

I'm sure MDS delete wouldn't hurt anything, esp. if people are in the engine anyway due to a failure and upgrade lifters. It can only help!

On BITOG, the 14 page thread I read had a retired ester formulator from the U.K. concur that for lubricant bandaiding, the polyol ester would indeed be an appropriate extra expenditure for us. We all like the HEMI. I don't see anything else out there I like better. On with the show!

btw, Burla cautioned about 5W-40 ester in artic weather. Might be too thick and cause piston skirt scuff. I might need to punt down to 0W-30 here (central Minnesota) for winter months.

Best wishes.....
 

WY.Ram

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No offense understood or taken. Sometimes it's difficult to express true intent in writing.

It's also tough to diagnose a design problem without assistance from the designer - which is why these Forums exist - we are on our own to help each other cope. Nobody knows for sure the root cause of the failure. We all just have it narrowed down to a location - the roller lifter.

I'm sure MDS delete wouldn't hurt anything, esp. if people are in the engine anyway due to a failure and upgrade lifters. It can only help!

On BITOG, the 14 page thread I read had a retired ester formulator from the U.K. concur that for lubricant bandaiding, the polyol ester would indeed be an appropriate extra expenditure for us. We all like the HEMI. I don't see anything else out there I like better. On with the show!

btw, Burla cautioned about 5W-40 ester in artic weather. Might be too thick and cause piston skirt scuff. I might need to punt down to 0W-30 here (central Minnesota) for winter months.

Best wishes.....
Right on! So I'm still weeks out from getting my heads back. I'm not as cold as central Minnesota (just sounds cold) but its definitely cooled off here. I'm wondering if I should start up on a 0w. Its still going to be mid January or February. I've had startup anxiety for awhile." Fire the engine and get it to 2000 rpm as quickly as possible. hold there for 20 min". If that doesn't just sound like no second chance, I dont know what else would. But knowing a river of 0w-X was getting there as quickly as possible might help me turn that key.

'16 Wagon Greene tune feed'n & fire'n 6.4L with 6spd 5.13 AAM, 37" KM3, -12mm Fuels Thuren Overland, DOR, Purple Cranium CAI, ARH, Solo Mach44 z36, EBC Custom vinyl AVS, 4% tint Morimoto, Rigid, Diode Dynamics AlfaOBD, Diablo, Nanny Kill, Locker bypass .................
 

HEMIMANN

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There's another thread going where a member reports piston slap noise for 10-20 seconds after startup with Red Line 5W-30, change to 0W-20 nearly eliminated it.

The result is unsurprising, but I haven't had piston slap using PUP 0W-40, either. I will need to watch for it. Reports have it happening on 5W-30 from app. 30 deg F & lower. I don't recall piston slap on many engines I've run over the years, maybe one such from GM.
 

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Right on! So I'm still weeks out from getting my heads back. I'm not as cold as central Minnesota (just sounds cold) but its definitely cooled off here. I'm wondering if I should start up on a 0w. Its still going to be mid January or February. I've had startup anxiety for awhile." Fire the engine and get it to 2000 rpm as quickly as possible. hold there for 20 min". If that doesn't just sound like no second chance, I dont know what else would. But knowing a river of 0w-X was getting there as quickly as possible might help me turn that key.

'16 Wagon Greene tune feed'n & fire'n 6.4L with 6spd 5.13 AAM, 37" KM3, -12mm Fuels Thuren Overland, DOR, Purple Cranium CAI, ARH, Solo Mach44 z36, EBC Custom vinyl AVS, 4% tint Morimoto, Rigid, Diode Dynamics AlfaOBD, Diablo, Nanny Kill, Locker bypass .................

hey bud this what i think and you can do with it what you want. if you dont have a block heater it might be easy as pie to install it now. if you already have one then use it religously. theres no reason not to. your engine will think its in sandiego all year.

those guys roaming the internet boasting they can startup at -10 with no assistance are complete fools if you ask me. under 40 mines hooked to the juice. only bad thing is the power bill went up $5 :anitoof:
 

WY.Ram

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hey bud this what i think and you can do with it what you want. if you dont have a block heater it might be easy as pie to install it now. if you already have one then use it religously. theres no reason not to. your engine will think its in sandiego all year.

those guys roaming the internet boasting they can startup at -10 with no assistance are complete fools if you ask me. under 40 mines hooked to the juice. only bad thing is the power bill went up $5 :anitoof:
That is a bad ass idea actually, perfect timing too, I have more room under my hood right now then ever, and I dig having a block heater, and I hate those frigid morning starts. Plus with a block heater, absolutely dont need the remote start and 10min idle, not even when momma goes along, Heater blows warm right away.

Protect the roller lifter every chance we get. Im ordering one now, AND I bet it won't cost me the $400 to $1500 part cost I seem to be throwing at everything else I decide on

Under 40F huh? I dont get shop heat until we're a little closer to 30F but whats a couple bucks to save a $10k-$15k engine, ya?

14F feels like 7F right now here. No heat in shop yet, i shouldn't have looked, now I'm going in. No wonder typing on this phone sucks worse then usual, its cold.

'16 Wagon Greene tune feed'n & fire'n 6.4L with 6spd 5.13 AAM, 37" KM3, -12mm Fuels Thuren Overland, DOR, Purple Cranium CAI, ARH, Solo Mach44 z36, EBC Custom vinyl AVS, 4% tint Morimoto, Rigid, Diode Dynamics AlfaOBD, Diablo, Nanny Kill, Locker bypass .................
 

farmallboy

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hey bud this what i think and you can do with it what you want. if you dont have a block heater it might be easy as pie to install it now. if you already have one then use it religously. theres no reason not to. your engine will think its in sandiego all year.

those guys roaming the internet boasting they can startup at -10 with no assistance are complete fools if you ask me. under 40 mines hooked to the juice. only bad thing is the power bill went up $5 :anitoof:

That's interesting idea. I like to let mine warm up as an old habit. But a block heater might reduce that time significantly in the barn. Shaves a lot of idle time over the years.
 

HEMIMANN

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yes the block heater gives the batery, starter and engine a much easier life

Good idea, yet cold starts are still an issue for many that park outside for work without access to an electric plug.

Which is also why I won't consider an EV until and unless charging station infrastructure is built out. Engine vehicles only became popular after gas stations started popping up everywhere.
 

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That is a bad ass idea actually, perfect timing too, I have more room under my hood right now then ever, and I dig having a block heater, and I hate those frigid morning starts. Plus with a block heater, absolutely dont need the remote start and 10min idle, not even when momma goes along, Heater blows warm right away.

Protect the roller lifter every chance we get. Im ordering one now, AND I bet it won't cost me the $400 to $1500 part cost I seem to be throwing at everything else I decide on

Under 40F huh? I dont get shop heat until we're a little closer to 30F but whats a couple bucks to save a $10k-$15k engine, ya?

14F feels like 7F right now here. No heat in shop yet, i shouldn't have looked, now I'm going in. No wonder typing on this phone sucks worse then usual, its cold.

'16 Wagon Greene tune feed'n & fire'n 6.4L with 6spd 5.13 AAM, 37" KM3, -12mm Fuels Thuren Overland, DOR, Purple Cranium CAI, ARH, Solo Mach44 z36, EBC Custom vinyl AVS, 4% tint Morimoto, Rigid, Diode Dynamics AlfaOBD, Diablo, Nanny Kill, Locker bypass .................
Take a look at an oil pan heater if you don't have the factory block heater.Easier to install,and actually warms up the oil not the coolant.Don't go any bigger then a 150 watt one,it's more then enough to warm up the oil and is alot cheaper to leave plugged in then a block heater
 

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this particular day wasnt terribly cold but you can see how well the blockheater work. it makes a big difference especially as miles rack up and clearances increase

20210109_103536.jpg
 
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