Looking at the numbers

[VernDiesel]

Son in law bought a new TT the other week so we loaded her up for the maiden voyage and a week at the Lake Cumberland State park in KY. About a 300 mile run. SIL took his boat behind his truck and two friends with their boats. Ran a little faster than I like but the young fellas thought they needed to go 68 & 70 with their boats. Still managed 16.1 down & 15.0 back. Not hand calculated but this truck is normally very close. This fuel economy is a little high but we weren't cutting any wind and my truck a 1500 Ecodiesel does have what I call a tow tune. SIL used over 3 gallons more fuel than I did on the way down with his f150 with 4.6. Trailer towed great no sway no porpoise no wind wiggle despite being 33.5' tip to tale. I really liked the trailer with wide axle stability & aero nose. Have a look.

http://www.coachmenrv.com/product-details.aspx?LineID=59&Image=743&ModelID=225#Main

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-62a37e6c-acf2-422b-a877-b89e1ce88fff.jpeg

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-90ba3b97-a9ef-493e-9977-788fd0f37a5e.jpeg

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-2ba79bba-6f4a-4ee2-a2e7-980e6423d6fc.jpeg

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-bf2a4b4e-e695-4756-9e1c-a5fd64f751bc.jpeg

Here is the CAT scales slip

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-ef58748c-ce66-4274-814f-d1aa523eba75.jpeg


Looking at the numbers. Truck with me fuel hitches basic tools & supplies about 6k. Fully stocked TT with 50 gal FW (Thanks SIL) about 8k. TW 1,120 pounds IE 14.0% a lil high to my normal setting of 12.0% because of FW. This put me at 7,120 on the truck axles which is 2.5% over GVWR. Am I ok with that? Absolutely because this puts 260 pounds more on the truck axles (7,120) than the TT axles (6,860) which I prefer. Less chance of tail walking the dog so to speak. And is still considerably less than the combined max axle weight. The legalistically minded might not like that but I am more interested in my family's safety and GVW is a secondary concern at this level. Steer axle was 3,440 IE 100 pounds over unloaded steer weight. This means full braking power/traction and generally retaining best factory COG. IE By keeping near factory unloaded steer weight. Drive axle only 3,680 well under max rating. So good balance & stable. CVW of almost 14k IE well below 4th gen max CVWR of 15,950 so she will stop in a factory determined safe distance. In fact limiting or controlling down hill speed with this weight is easy & safe as I have the added safety of GDE's turbo brake and the optional factory TBC for stopping any sway. Literally she can hold down hill speed to cruise setting without touching the foot brake. Might in part be why my original brakes went 293k.

Many newbs get all out of sorts looking at payload stickers trying to stack up weight guestimates toward that number and think its the same as gvwr and that it must be much more important than it it. Because to them what constitutes a safe weight tow is ambigous and they overvalue this quantitatively. They also do not understand TW with respects to dynamic weight when using a WDH vs static weight such as a tongue on a scale when not using a WDH. When you start to understand what specific numbers are for you start to get a better overall understanding and see the value of a triple scale such as CAT. This really gets hammered home if you ever take the same rig from sketchy to stable via WDH and TV/TT weight redistribution. With a 1/2 ton truck & a 4k trailer this is pretty mute but with an 8 to 10k trailer its the difference between white knuckle and safe & stable.

Sketchy rig; TV light on the steer & heavy on the drive with raised COG prone to rollover and reduced braking ability, trailer & TV wiggle when pushed by wind or semi bow wave instead of being pushed as one unit, trailer will sway.

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-c67ec7ec-5d89-43cf-bae2-8567adc77538.jpeg

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-f44d08b9-8847-484a-b8a7-3f06f9d646d0.jpeg

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-72fedd67-e957-46de-b343-796ac111dc16.jpeg

Happy camping season to all.

 

[RoadRamblerNJ]

Son in law bought a new TT the other week so we loaded her up for the maiden voyage and a week at the Lake Cumberland State park in KY. About a 300 mile run. SIL took his boat behind his truck and two friends with their boats. Ran a little faster than I like but the young fellas thought they needed to go 68 & 70 with their boats. Still managed 16.1 down & 15.0 back. Not hand calculated but this truck is normally very close. This fuel economy is a little high but we weren't cutting any wind and my truck a 1500 Ecodiesel does have what I call a tow tune. SIL used over 3 gallons more fuel than I did on the way down with his f150 with 4.6. Trailer towed great no sway no porpoise no wind wiggle despite being 33.5' tip to tale. I really liked the trailer with wide axle stability & aero nose. Have a look.

http://www.coachmenrv.com/product-details.aspx?LineID=59&Image=743&ModelID=225#Main

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-62a37e6c-acf2-422b-a877-b89e1ce88fff.jpeg

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-90ba3b97-a9ef-493e-9977-788fd0f37a5e.jpeg

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-2ba79bba-6f4a-4ee2-a2e7-980e6423d6fc.jpeg

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-bf2a4b4e-e695-4756-9e1c-a5fd64f751bc.jpeg

Here is the CAT scales slip

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-ef58748c-ce66-4274-814f-d1aa523eba75.jpeg


Looking at the numbers. Truck with me fuel hitches basic tools & supplies about 6k. Fully stocked TT with 50 gal FW (Thanks SIL) about 8k. TW 1,120 pounds IE 14.0% a lil high to my normal setting of 12.0% because of FW. This put me at 7,120 on the truck axles which is 2.5% over GVWR. Am I ok with that? Absolutely because this puts 260 pounds more on the truck axles (7,120) than the TT axles (6,860) which I prefer. Less chance of tail walking the dog so to speak. And is still considerably less than the combined max axle weight. The legalistically minded might not like that but I am more interested in my family's safety and GVW is a secondary concern at this level. Steer axle was 3,440 IE 100 pounds over unloaded steer weight. This means full braking power/traction and generally retaining best factory COG. IE By keeping near factory unloaded steer weight. Drive axle only 3,680 well under max rating. So good balance & stable. CVW of almost 14k IE well below 4th gen max CVWR of 15,950 so she will stop in a factory determined safe distance. In fact limiting or controlling down hill speed with this weight is easy & safe as I have the added safety of GDE's turbo brake and the optional factory TBC for stopping any sway.

Many newbs and RV forum armchair quarterbacks get all out of sorts looking at payload stickers trying to stack up weight guestimates toward that number and think its the same as gvwr and that it must be much more important than it it. Because to them what constitutes a safe weight tow is ambigous and they overvalue this quantitatively. They also do not understand TW with respects to dynamic weight when using a WDH vs static weight such as a tongue on a scale when not using a WDH. When you start to understand what specific numbers are for you start to get a better overall understanding and see the value of a triple scale such as CAT. This really gets hammered home if you ever take the same rig from sketchy to stable via WDH and TV/TT weight redistribution. With a 1/2 ton truck & a 4k trailer this is pretty mute but with an 8 to 10k trailer its the difference between white knuckle and safe & stable.

Sketchy rig; TV light on the steer & heavy on the drive with raised COG prone to rollover and reduced braking ability, trailer & TV wiggle when pushed by wind or semi bow wave instead of being pushed as one unit, trailer will sway.

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-c67ec7ec-5d89-43cf-bae2-8567adc77538.jpeg

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-f44d08b9-8847-484a-b8a7-3f06f9d646d0.jpeg

https://www.ram1500diesel.com/forum...tow-72fedd67-e957-46de-b343-796ac111dc16.jpeg

Happy camping season to all.

Sir, I thoroughly read, re-read and learned quite a bit from your post. Thank you for spelling it all out in an easily understood (mostly) way. I am planning on getting my first ever TT in several years. I've pulled different small trailers ( 12' overloaded U-Haul, car trailer with my sons Jeep and no trlr brakes, various motorcycle trailers and a 16' boat). Nothing like the 33.5' rig you pulled. Biggest lesson I learned so far was an extra 5 or 10 mph can get you piled up in a hurry. Didn't happen but, almost. I expect my 2017 Ram 2500 CC 4x4 with 8' bed, 6.4 hemi and 4.10 rears to last me a lot of years so, the weak link in the chain initially is me. I'll learn it all eventually but thank you again for bringing to a noobies attention just how much there is to know. Imagine, now I'm a 59 yr old noobie.

 

[GsRAM]

Good post as usual Vern.

I've said it before, but the difference between you and others is you understand the weights and mass involved with what your doing. Many others do not.

I'd never recommend to just anyone to tow an 8k, 33+ foot rig with a half ton truck. Folks reading this thread need to understand that Vern is maxed out with this rig and pushing the limits of a half ton truck.

He can do so safely again because he has the knowledge and experience. He pulls travel trailers for a living. For the average, limited experience person i still reccomend once your North of 7500 loaded trailer weight your in 3/4 ton truck territory, again, my opinion.

Can you push it beyond that? Yes, Vern can because he has the experience and knowledge. Should you? Well that is up to the individual.

If you have never towed a travel trailer, understand that any rig 30+ feet is large, heavy (unless an ultralight) and tall. That 30 footer has long sidewalls that will act like a sail in the wind. A 3/4 ton truck has the weight to control it. If your set up like Vern his 1/2 ton can also.

I've towed heavy with half tons and they did a good job for me. I knew i was maxed out and was very careful with my set up, as Vern is. It was safe and i had no issues. Half ton trucks today are very capable, good tow rigs.

The key is to understand and know your weights, your trucks limitations, do your research, scale it and then take your time to set it up properly.

I dont know what tires Verns SIL trailer has on it, but most ST rated trailer tires are speed rated to 65mph max. It's best to stay under that on the highway so you don't overheat them.

Of course these are just my thoughts for what they are worth and what you paid for them. Lol.

Have a good Friday guys.

 

[BossHogg]

Many newbs and RV forum armchair quarterbacks get all out of sorts looking at payload stickers trying to stack up weight guestimates toward that number and think its the same as gvwr and that it must be much more important than it it.

They think because of the tire and axle ratings they can tow or carry anything that fits. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) developed the J2807 set of recommended practices (all manufacturers follow this, domestic and foreign). The tow test procedures designed by SAE's engineers consist of a series of rigorous real-world challenges to determine the Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR) of a vehicle and trailer combinations. These tests are all inclusive of a vehicle's capabilities, for example, parking pawl capabilities on an incline, cooling system performance in hot weather towing up a 15-mile mountain pass, etc.

Unfortunately, the specification isn't free to read so the rumors of "I can tow and carry the Empire State building" continues on the rumor-filled, and often wrong, Internet.

 

[JohnnyMac]

Once you started using them there words like quantitatively, ambiguous and dynamic vs static weight my brain started to hurt. Know what I mean Vern? Then you started talking about porpoises, steer weights and walking dogs? What the heck's all them animals got to do with trailering? I always keep my dog in the truck with me and the only steers I know of are from Texas (among other thangs). Unless you take a long tow off a short pier, you should have nothing to do with porpoises... Unfortunately it appears that I'm gonna forever be destined to guesstimating just how white knuckle my sketchy tow is gonna be.......



Good info Vern...

 

[RoadRamblerNJ]

Know wutta mean Vern? LMAO.
Lot of young guys have no idea why that's funny as Hell ha ha ha ha

 

[VernDiesel]

Yeah I’m not recommending people start their towing experience with an 8k TT. Mostly just sharing to impart knowledge. What I did recommend of sorts is the value of and use of a CAT scale to concretely set up a safe stable tow.

Boss yep all Mfg rated tow specs now comply to the SAE J2807 standards to help standardize & let you know if Mfg says X spec is safe that it is or rather can be if also complying with the other specs. Ram says certain 4th gen 1500s can safely max tow 10,700 pounds. And they can IF axle weights, etc are all met. But this becomes increasily more difficult as weight goes up And the only way to know is to actually weigh and set it so they all comply. If you can’t meet all specs than it’s not Mfg certified safe to tow that.

I showed where I exceeded one more minor spec & why I was ok with that. But I also could have made it meet spec (GVWR) a multitude of different ways such as draining some fresh water or transferring some front of TT supplies back further or cranking the WDH harder or relocating the behind the axle truck spare to behind the TT and then verifying any or all of this with another $2 weigh.

To boil this down to the Joe Dirt basics.

1. Replace your unloaded steer weight.

You don’t know what that is? It’s online better yet weigh your truck. It’s like $12 then $2 per additional weigh. Download CAT scale app for your phone it has a locator & GPS directions. My 14 Ram ED steer axle is 3,340. With Hemi generally about 40 pounds less.

2. Weigh & adjust your WDH/TV/TT load until your TW is in the 10 to 15 percent of Gross trailer weight range.

In my experience those alone brings the rest in spec and does it like 95 percent of the time. Naturally you should still also verify max drive axle weight is not exceeded, same with receiver rating, CVWR, & GVWR.

 

[VernDiesel]

Lol that’s just his commercials his movies like Ernest goes to camp we’re hilarious.

 

[Fitz-0518]

I am convinced that Vern and the other knowledgeable members, have helped keep our towing expereince safer. Have learned and come to understand what makes sense for towing safe and intelligently. Thanks gents.

 

[RoadRamblerNJ]

Yeah I’m not recommending people start their towing experience with an 8k TT. Mostly just sharing to impart knowledge. What I did recommend of sorts is the value of and use of a CAT scale to concretely set up a safe stable tow.

Boss yep all Mfg rated tow specs now comply to the SAE J2807 standards to help standardize & let you know if Mfg says X spec is safe that it is or rather can be if also complying with the other specs. Ram says certain 4th gen 1500s can safely max tow 10,700 pounds. And they can IF axle weights, etc are all met. But this becomes increasily more difficult as weight goes up And the only way to know is to actually weigh and set it so they all comply. If you can’t meet all specs than it’s not Mfg certified safe to tow that.

I showed where I exceeded one more minor spec & why I was ok with that. But I also could have made it meet spec (GVWR) a multitude of different ways such as draining some fresh water or transferring some front of TT supplies back further or cranking the WDH harder or relocating the behind the axle truck spare to behind the TT and then verifying any or all of this with another $2 weigh.

To boil this down to the Joe Dirt basics.

1. Replace your unloaded steer weight.

You don’t know what that is? It’s online better yet weigh your truck. It’s like $12 then $2 per additional weigh. Download CAT scale app for your phone it has a locator & GPS directions. My 14 Ram ED steer axle is 3,340. With Hemi generally about 40 pounds less.

2. Weigh & adjust your WDH/TV/TT load until your TW is in the 10 to 15 percent of Gross trailer weight range.

In my experience those alone brings the rest in spec and does it like 95 percent of the time. Naturally you should still also verify max drive axle weight is not exceeded, same with receiver rating, CVWR, & GVWR.

Thank you again. Ed.

 

[gofishn]

Who cares about all that . . . Did the kid catch any fish?

 

[VernDiesel]

As a matter of fact he did. He was so excited. Best part of camping re-living firsts through their eyes.

 

[RoadRamblerNJ]

I just read this entire thread again. Seem to pick up or understand one more thing every time I do. Been reading up on WDHs and the different numbers are starting to take hold in my brain (lots of room in there). . Understanding what each one is is easy. Knowing HOW and WHY they affect each other is pure physics and common sense (not easy). A=x, B=y, C=z is easy, but if A changes, B&C change too and if C changes, A changes, therefore D needs to be adjusted. Clear as mud. At least I know I don't know. Yet.
I've been known as a "drivin' ass" all my life. I learned on gravel at 15 yrs old, on private property how to power slide a '63 Chevy. I ate up all that pursuit driving training in the academy. Then practiced it 8 hrs a day (when safe). Heck, I flog this 2500 CCLB like it's my old Fiat 500 Abarth. BUT....You ad 30 feet of trailer and thousands of pounds of dynamic weight to the equasion and things change quick. Just as Sam Colt's Peacemaker made all men equal, draging your house around on wheels makes all drivers equal (kinda). There will always be that fool that will do 85 mph towing 'cause he left home an hour late. Used to be, I'd just see the entire rig pass me and call him a fool. Now, thanks to Vern, GsRAM and others here, I'm trying to see the wiggle, trying to see the excess/too little TW, I'm now noticing the porpoiseing, Seeing the panic swerve when fool #2 brake checks fool #1 (it is North Jersey, Ohhhh!, Faghedaboudit). I know, seat-of-the-pants is the best teacher but, if you start off waaay unbalanced or tongue light/heavy, grossly over loaded, you may not live long enough to to learn any of it.

Richard Pryor once said..."Ya got to listen to old people. You don't get to be old being no fool. Lot of young, wise men deader'n a MotherFu**er!"
I never forgot that.

The town I worked as a PO (Union, NJ) had Rt 82, Rt 22, Rt 78 and the GS Parkway all running through it. And, like I said, it's NJ so, everybody's speeding. I picked up, scraped up and squeegied up my share of accident victims. Most common cause was excessive speed by people driving beyond their own skill level. Vern, I promise never to tow my house that fast. Ever.
Thank you guys. You're keeping us safe.
Ed.

 

[VernDiesel]

Thanks Appreciate it.

"If you start off way off balanced you may not live long enough to learn any of it." Well said. Lot of young, SMART men end up dead.. only because they haven't experienced enough yet to become wise. No judging I grew up with white knuckle feaver.. their is lots of good reasons and self made opportunities for me to no longer be here. Drove big truck shifting weight tankers etc before current transporting TTs from the Mfgs to dealerships nationwide. Last week I saw the remains of a Fed Ex doubles driver's truck who only minutes before had likely nodded off before a few seconds of shear terror and losing his life. Not the way I want to go. Drive commercially 12 hour days and you will see in a year what it takes most drivers a lifetime to see and forget. Not to scare anyone statically towing a TT isn't like playing with rattlesnakes but you do have to take it serious and youtube has plenty of proof of that.

I learned sliding semi trailer tandems or axles and more to make loads scale driving big truck and how that affected how it handled the mountains & curves on some of the most statistically deadly routes before doing this business. Bought my diesel half ton before running into this business. Didn't realize how much quicker the softer suspension of a half ton vs an HD would affect things. Working with and learning safe loading with a WDH bumper pull is way more difficult and costly mistake wise than with a big truck (5th wheel).

Pulling RVs I went to RV forums only to find out much of the advice and common "wisdom" was terrible and drowns out the good info & advice. The wise and working are overcome by a never ending avalanche of newbies and non working retired whatever arm chair quarterbacks who parrot advise about **** they know next to nothing about from person experience. I've written a lot on about a dozen forums trying to help people and provide what people need to know & focus on instead of the nearly irrelevant drivel that is constantly droned.

The scales are your friend and cheap and helps you to actually be proactively responsible for your families life towing that TT. They can turn stressful towing into peaceful driving. Turn ambiguously safe into a concretely safe & stable setup. Much easier quicker & exact compared to only measurements or worse ye ol eyeball. If your afraid you don't know enough you will be embarrassed get over yourself. You wont be and would it matter by comparison to taking your family in a sketchy setup anyway. A little trial & error adjustments and talking to experienced will get you there.

Replace your unloaded steer weight close as you can.
Try not to exceed your max drive axle rating.
When using a WDH Subtract your unloaded combined axle weight from your loaded combined axle weight for your tongue weight then divide that number into your gross trailer weight. This should be between 11 & 14 percent of your gross trailer weight.

Thats the meat of it. combined vehicle weight, gross vehicle weight, max receiver rating are also valuable but generally more secondary at least with respects to the laws of physics or setting up a safe stable tow.

You can learn tips & tricks to setting up your hitch and getting weight to transfer if need be but first just get their and know what you are trying to do as outlined. Also once you have it you don't have to come back next camping trip or next summer only if something dramatically changes with respects to your load.

Interestingly after visiting my other grandboy in Lancaster PA I'll take my next trailer to Lakewood NJ. Usually try to get some fresh seafood around Point Pleasant and try to learn to say Faghedaboudit in proper joysie dialect before heading home.

BTW I like your gunfighting advice.. its goes right alone with the rules of a revolution.. never let your government talk you out of your guns.

 

[gtex1970]

nice job. i obviously have a lot to learn. That trailer is only slightly smaller than mine, but I could not stomach the way my 1500 EcoDiesel felt in the heavy coastal winds near the Texas coast. most other times, it handled it it well. after new tires with a higher load rating, some simple airbags and a thicker sway bar, I quickly upgraded to a Ram 2500 Cummins after a trip last August..

 

[VernDiesel]

I tried to buy an original clean forrest green 70 GTX 440 4 speed pistol grip with green bench seats and original fresh air type hood. Had the money from summer jobs and it was a fantastic buy. But at 17 my parents said no. I'm still salty. With a little scale work and good explanation you would learn quick. I feel you with heavy winds. Did 65 mph winds in WY with ED & TT for a few miles before pulling off and deciding to get my sleep time in early. The heavy stiff diesel & HD platform is way more stable. Only so much you can do to make that up. Its understanding what and why. Boiled down thats using scale, hitch, TV & TT loading, to replace unloaded steer weight close as you can (retain COG) and getting TW percentage in the 11 to 14 % range and a few other more minor things.

 

[JohnnyMac]

Certainly not implying that I was a SMART young man, but at the ripe ol age of 19, I was fresh into my Coast Guard career and had my first real steady paycheck so wanted a cool ride to impress the chicks. Traded my (not so cool) Datsun pickup in on a '72 Vette. I owned that Vette for 3 weeks and 4 days before I plowed into the back end of a parked semi-truck trailer at what witnesses estimated between 75 & 100 mph (I have no recollection of that night). 12 days in the hospital (Grade 3 concussion with short term coma, 3 broken ribs at spine, broken clavicle, scalp torn loose, ear nearly torn off, etc....), 60 days convalescent leave, a courts martial w/reduction in rank and a totaled dream car is what it took to make me a little bit wiser......just a little bit.