Max towing, for real...

[Andrei20]

That's nonsense. Around 2014, every truck sold in the USA (Ford, GMC, Chevy, Tundra, Titan) follow the same J2807 standard for towing.

I don't say they don't, they can be compliant to whatever standards they want. I am just saying that Volvo being one of the safest brands in the world will not put people at risk by inflating their numbers. I have the car for 10 years now, and 100 thousand kms, and I can say it's a solid piece of engineering, designed in the 90's, it still goes strong. At it's age, and at 232 thousand km the rear suspension is all original, and still has a smooth ride, no knocks, and doesn't wear the tires. The front, I did the toe in by myself in my garage, with a measuring tape about 5 years ago, after I removed, cleaned the steering rack and replaced the tie-rods. No issues since. I am a mechanic and I service and repair my cars entirely by myself. Nobody else ever touched any of my cars that I own or owned in the past. and I rebuilt transmissions, removed and installed cylinder heads, changed timing chains and many others. The only thing that I don't have is tire mounting and wheels balancing equipment. And even there, I remove the wheels at home and take them to the tire shop, after a tire shop screwed up my secret bolts, I don't trust them even that.
I have one set of winter nokians that I use the 8th season already. The summer tires on different rims are about 5 years old. Just even wear as supposed to.
I towed a U-Haul trailer with furniture for 500kms , I would guesstimate at around 2000lbs, no problems, the car is solid, gives confidence at driving. Very good car. So I think your assumption that Volvo will advertise some towing numbers without making sure it's safe is not appropriate. I trust that vehicle, more than the American standards of any sorts.

 

[ramffml]

I don't say they don't, they can be compliant to whatever standards they want. I am just saying that Volvo being one of the safest brands in the world will not put people at risk by inflating their numbers.

The simple fact is; volvo does not test their stuff using J2807, therefore you cannot directly compare GCWR values between volvo and anything else. You can only compare trucks that are tested using the same methodology.

The J2807 standard measures (for example) 0 to 30, 0 to 60 performance, breaking distance, minimal understeer/oversteer, there are tests designed to ensure proper cooling etc etc.

There is not a chance on this green earth that volvo's standards are going to be higher than those of heavy duty 1 ton work trucks designed to take a beating each and every day.

volvo is a family hauler, 99% of those things won't work a day in their life.

I suggest you click this link, it's a great read and explains what J2807 is all about:

SAE J2807 Tow Tests - The Standard

Maximum trailer tow ratings have been a bit of a mystery over the years. Manufacturers each had their own somewhat secret ways of determining how much weight th

www.motortrend.com

 

[Andrei20]

The simple fact is; volvo does not test their stuff using J2807, therefore you cannot directly compare GCWR values between volvo and anything else. You can only compare trucks that are tested using the same methodology.

The J2807 standard measures (for example) 0 to 30, 0 to 60 performance, breaking distance, minimal understeer/oversteer, there are tests designed to ensure proper cooling etc etc.

There is not a chance on this green earth that volvo's standards are going to be higher than those of heavy duty 1 ton work trucks designed to take a beating each and every day.

volvo is a family hauler, 99% of those things won't work a day in their life.

I suggest you click this link, it's a great read and explains what J2807 is all about:

SAE J2807 Tow Tests - The Standard

Maximum trailer tow ratings have been a bit of a mystery over the years. Manufacturers each had their own somewhat secret ways of determining how much weight th

www.motortrend.com

I have read them already, and, well, all I can say is that this standards just put some requirements for the local market for the manufacturers. But, if a car owner's manual says I can tow safely up to 5000lbs with a 2007 Volvo XC90, or up to 5600lbs with a 2022 Ford explorer, or up 7500lbs with a 2012 Mercedes GL350, or up to 9300lbs with a 2023 Ford Expedition, or.. pick any other SUV that is rated more than that RAM, that means no one in the world can tell me that I can't, as long as I follow the manufacturer's recommendations regarding all the weight ratings, towed, combined, whatever. And that's it, my Volvo is rated at 5000lbs, I can tow 5000lbs. I will adjust my maintenance accordingly, the oil viscosities, the maintenance intervals, I will add a transmission oil cooler, as the manufacturer recommends, and I will be ok. I can tow all day long.
And as I said, I towed my 6300lbs camper for a few thousand kms with my Mercedes. No problems, consumption around 20l/100kms, all temperatures within limits, going 100-110km/hour. No problems, very stable, good braking, the trailer has its electric brakes, and the brake controller was adjusted properly. Didn't even feel that I tow, only when accelerating, a needed a bit more time to get up to cruising speed, but that is just like any other pickup with a trailer behind. You should read about Mercedes towing and look at pictures online, you'd be surprised how good they are. Don't think that Europeans don't know how to build cars. They have better and more powerful diesel engines there that will put the american ones to shame. Show me a 4 litre american diesel that puts out 435 horses, or a 3.0 diesel that puts out 386 horses in a production car. You won't find one here. But it's all politicians that under the "environmental" reasons don't let those diesel V8s on this market, because no one will buy this Tahoes and Escalades with their big gas guzzlers. And if I had a V8 diesel in my Mercedes like they have in Europe, I wouldn't have bought my 3500 ram. That's the only reason I bought it, not to stress the not so big 3.0 v6. Yes, it's a family hauler, same as the 2022 Ford explorer, which is rated at 5600lbs towing capacity, more than this post owner's Ram. So that J-whatever standard means nothing to me. If you're stopped at a DOT station and inspector sees that you're weights are within towing limits, you're good to go.

 

[nlambert182]

I'm not familiar with Volvo, so how they calculate towing capacity interested me.


I looked up some data on an XC90 on Volvo's website just to get an idea. It does show a max tow rating of 5k lbs (with the note "when properly equipped") unless you have a front wheel drive. Then it's 4k lbs. I also read that this rating only applies to towing in altitudes not to exceed 3,280 ft above sea level. For every additional 3,280 ft above that the tow rating is reduced by 10% to account for decreased engine power. But they don't do a very good job explaining what "properly equipped" means.

It doesn't appear to be cut and dry, which is no different than a Ram or any other vehicle that tows. Volvo and similar vehicles which aren't really designed with towing in mind are very vague in their tow ratings. It will likely tow it just fine, but point being that you still have to do your diligence and look at the data for your specific vehicle, and not use the blanket statement that is in the owner's manual.


The Ford Explorer is an easier one because they do use the J2807 method. Ford also sticks this caveat at the bottom of their tow chart for the Explorer:

"Maximum towing capabilities are for properly equipped vehicles with required equipment and a 150-lb. driver and passenger and vary based on cargo, vehicle configuration, accessories, option content and number of passengers. See label on door jamb for carrying capacity of a specific vehicle. For additional information, see your Ford Dealer"
Further down, they also include this:

"Under certain conditions, however, (e.g., when the trailer has a large frontal area that adds substantial air drag or when trailering in hilly or mountainous terrain) it is wise to choose a vehicle with a higher rating"

And this:

"Your specific vehicle’s tow capability could be reduced based on weight of selected trim series and option content."

You can't just say that if the manual says you can do it, that you can. These manuals are written generically with enough legalese to get them out of any potential lawsuits. You have to put in the effort to determine what is safe and practical versus what the advertisement said it could do.

 

[ramffml]

But, if a car owner's manual says I can tow safely up to 5000lbs with a 2007 Volvo XC90, or up to 5600lbs with a 2022 Ford explorer, or up 7500lbs with a 2012 Mercedes GL350, or up to 9300lbs with a 2023 Ford Expedition, or.. pick any other SUV that is rated more than that RAM, that means no one in the world can tell me that I can't, as long as I follow the manufacturer's recommendations regarding all the weight ratings, towed, combined, whatever.

I can safely tow more than my truck is rated for as well. I don't think you're understanding what a standard means. No doubt your volvo would be rated less if it was tested using j2807.

 

[09SilverRam]

I had a Honda Pilot that did a really good job on defining the towing capabilities in the manual. It went through payload and how many seats you could fill with x weight person and normal tongue weight, it went through estimating tongue weight based on how much the rear wheel well drops when you put the trailer on, and it went through frontal area on trailers and the impact on tow capacities and suggested that while a 4500 pound boat or car trailer was OK that large frontal area trailers should be limited to 3500.

I was really impressed with the detail that Honda went into for towing.

 

[Andrei20]

I'm not familiar with Volvo, so how they calculate towing capacity interested me.


I looked up some data on an XC90 on Volvo's website just to get an idea. It does show a max tow rating of 5k lbs (with the note "when properly equipped") unless you have a front wheel drive. Then it's 4k lbs. I also read that this rating only applies to towing in altitudes not to exceed 3,280 ft above sea level. For every additional 3,280 ft above that the tow rating is reduced by 10% to account for decreased engine power. But they don't do a very good job explaining what "properly equipped" means.

It doesn't appear to be cut and dry, which is no different than a Ram or any other vehicle that tows. Volvo and similar vehicles which aren't really designed with towing in mind are very vague in their tow ratings. It will likely tow it just fine, but point being that you still have to do your diligence and look at the data for your specific vehicle, and not use the blanket statement that is in the owner's manual.


The Ford Explorer is an easier one because they do use the J2807 method. Ford also sticks this caveat at the bottom of their tow chart for the Explorer:

"Maximum towing capabilities are for properly equipped vehicles with required equipment and a 150-lb. driver and passenger and vary based on cargo, vehicle configuration, accessories, option content and number of passengers. See label on door jamb for carrying capacity of a specific vehicle. For additional information, see your Ford Dealer"
Further down, they also include this:

"Under certain conditions, however, (e.g., when the trailer has a large frontal area that adds substantial air drag or when trailering in hilly or mountainous terrain) it is wise to choose a vehicle with a higher rating"

And this:

"Your specific vehicle’s tow capability could be reduced based on weight of selected trim series and option content."

You can't just say that if the manual says you can do it, that you can. These manuals are written generically with enough legalese to get them out of any potential lawsuits. You have to put in the effort to determine what is safe and practical versus what the advertisement said it could do.

I understand all that, of course, you should use your brains before you attach a trailer to your vehicle. And "properly equipped", if you go the official dealer, they will tell you that it has to have a factory installed hitch receiver, which my Volvo has, a brake controller, which I am not sure if it has, but can be easily added, and the Trailer Safe Assist is already programed in the electronic control unit as part of the Digital stability control system, and is triggered once you connect the trailer electrical wiring, the car knows that it has a trailer hooked up and behaves accordingly. That's it. Besides that, my Volvo is equipped with rear self leveling suspension, so no squat there when you start driving.
And of course, you take in consideration all other factors, how many people you have in your car, how much luggage, the altitude, all the rest, in three words, use your brains to be safe. And no one in the right mind will use the car to tow a trailer at its maximum capacity, the dynamic loads on the car, specifically on the hitch, during driving might be a lot higher than the rated numbers. That's why I think being at around 2/3, or maximum 3/4 of the maximum towing capacity would be safe.
And we started this talk here when I compared my 2007 Volvo to the 2012 ram 1500, which is also pre- J2807 standard, and everything that I said about what would a dealer say, and about being properly equipped would apply to the Ram too, and any other vehicle before 2014. So, apples to apples. At the end of all, use your brains. And at a dealer, the first thing that they will do when you ask them how much you can tow, they will open the same book or same online information about your vehicle that you have already found. They are just salesmen, they will not assume higher numbers out of nothing, as you said, it's all liability and lawsuit. Here's the book, there's the numbers, follow recommendations. 2007 Volvo xc90 - 5000lbs when properly equipped, 2012 Ram 1500 rwd - 3600 or whatever lbs towing capacity, also, when properly equipped.

 

[Andrei20]

I can safely tow more than my truck is rated for as well. I don't think you're understanding what a standard means. No doubt your volvo would be rated less if it was tested using j2807.

The 2012 ram 1500 that I compared my Volvo to is also pre-j2807, so forget about the standard. Look at the book, and you have a number. Go to the dealer and ask, they will open the same book as you have. Check the asterisk* (when properly equipped), applies to pretty much all the vehicles, before, or after 2014. And use your brains, no one in the right mind will tow more, or right at the maximum towing capacity. 2/3 or 3/4 of it, and you'll have no problems, and again, do the homework, use you brains and check the weight limits to stay within numbers.
And why would it be rated less? The post 2014 vehicles with the same curb weight are rated at the same, or around 5000lbs, or even more. What changed? Pretty much nothing. 5000lbs is just another vehicle of about the same size towed behind, which in Europe in many countries is very much allowed to do. The only thing is the tongue weight, should not exceed that. So all your doubts are just your personal feelings, and nothing else. A 2018 jeep grand Cherokee will tow 7200lbs. Doubt that too? Or because it's american made it must be stronger than a Volvo? Do not underestimate the European vehicles. They are very well engineered, and very well built. Yes, you have the right to have your doubts, but I will follow the numbers.

 

[ramffml]

The 2012 ram 1500 that I compared my Volvo to is also pre-j2807

Exactly! Now you're getting it. You're comparing two cars that have not been tested using the same standard and methodology, so whatever tow ratings you get on both cars are apples to oranges. It's really that simple.

 

[Andrei20]

Exactly! Now you're getting it. You're comparing two cars that have not been tested using the same standard and methodology, so whatever tow ratings you get on both cars are apples to oranges. It's really that simple.

Looks like you didn't get it yet. You doubt the Volvo, but not the Ram, and you don't doubt the 2018 Grand Cherokee with it's 7200lbs towing capacity. Why? Personal feelings about Volvo? Proud of american made? Denying everything foreign? Did you own a Volvo? The car is built probably at the best safety standards, and as I said, at 15 years and 232 tkm it has no rust on the body at all. And it's driven everyday in a climate with 6 months of snow and salt on the roads. Some surface rust on some suspension elements and that's it. And owning a RAM, I can say that it's built cheap. That's why they're all pretty much rust buckets after 10-15 years of use.
So, still, I would trust the Volvo recommendations more than the j2807 standard, which is mostly just about braking and accelerating numbers, and not the strength and the quality of the materials used to build a car.