Max towing, for real...

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Random_Walk

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oof! I don't feel so bad about my puny 4400lb max tow (w/ 3.21 gears, even!)
 

62Blazer

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While I usually jump on these posts to say people are way too critical on towing and payload weights, those posts are usually talking about a matter of a couple hundred pounds or asking if their 3500 DRW Cummins truck can pull a 9,000 lb. camper. In this case wanting to pulling a 10k+ lb. camper with a V6 1500 that you know is only rated for 3,500 lb is just crazy. I'm not really talking about the safety aspect or handling part of the equation, but don't think that truck and V6 would like that at all. Could it physically pull it.......sure, but would think it would really be struggling on the freeway pulling grades and such.
 

tron67j

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All jokes aside.... I've actually been in rv parks multiple times where guys come in with a half ton truck and a fifth wheel. My curiosity got the best of me one time so I approached the neighbor to check out his setup.

2017-18ish F150, Crew Cab, 4wd Lariat. Pulling a Keystone Cougar "half-ton towable"fifth wheel. In the initial course of our conversation, he mentioned that my 3500 seemed a bit overkill for my fifth wheel. Mind you.... 2020 Coachmen Chaparral 392MBL. 43' long, 15,500 lbs loaded. Why not just use a 2500? Because it didn't have the payload. His answer.... just do what I did... Extra springs, airbags, etc... Make it tow more. I explained that adding all of those helpers doesn't make the truck tow more. It doesn't do anything to increase the weight the tires can handle, axles, brakes, cooling, etc... It's like getting a chihuahua on steroids where I could have just gotten a pit bull. He then asked if I ever had a problem with trans or engine cooling with my rig. Short answer... never. Not even towing up a 7% grade for miles. He was finding times where he would have to get out of the throttle because the truck was getting hot. Imagine that.

We sat around and chatted for quite the while and came back to the payload on his truck. "The RV salesman told me that I could tow this rig with ANY half ton pickup." I told him quite simply, salesmen lie. "But... the payload on my truck is 2,100 lbs. The hitch weight of my camper is 1,500 lbs, so I'm all good."


OP - take this example into serious consideration.

He thought he was within payload. So I took him to his door sticker. Actual payload on his door sticker was 1,684 lbs.
"But.... Ford says max payload is 2,100 lbs." MAX payload on a single cab, 2wd F150 XL was 2,100 lbs with the max tow package and one 150 lb passenger.

We proceeded to do some real math. He had his wife, his son, and their dog with them.
Dad - ~200 lbs (-150 lb for driver, so 50 lbs)
Mom - ~130 lbs
Son - ~130 lbs
Dog - ~30 lbs

Total passenger weight: 340 lbs
He was using a B&W slider hitch - 287 lbs (used to have the same one)
He had to get the B&W Gooseneck prep kit installed - 141 lbs

Remember that original payload number? 1684 lbs? Considering the weight of everything mentioned above, his available payload was 916 lbs BEFORE ever hooking to the rig. This rig was loaded to the hilt, so I would almost guarantee that he was overweight on the camper (but no way to tell in the park).

At a minimum he was almost 800 lbs overloaded. The truck just didn't have what he needed. But... the salesman told him he could do it so in his mind, there was no need to check for himself. In fairness, I learned this lesson the hard way myself once. It only took once.
Add bags to increase payload capacity. Ugh! Better off tying helium balloons to the tongue of the trailer, at least they would lift up and reduce payload.

Please, don't try this at home.
 

Random_Walk

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Def. don't try it at home, especially when you consider that sometimes, the road can become your enemy even if you're towing within limits:

 

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Hey guys, I've seen in the specs that my 2012 1500 ST 3.7L V6 2WD (recently bought, used) has a towing capacity of about 3800lbs. I've only towed a light 15' pontoon boat with it so far, but I have a 5th wheel travel trailer, and a guy at the local hitch shop told me my truck could tow the 5th wheel. I'd love for that to be true, but I'm skeptical. The 5th wheel camper weighs about 10,400lbs. Has anyone here tried towing that much weight with a vehicle like mine? How much is the max you have towed with it? Thanks.
What he meant is that it can move it. Towing is a whole difuran game. My Limited is rated at a little over 11 with two wheel drive an a 5.7. The guy at the hitch shop is trying to sell a hitch and could care less if your truck is capable or safe.
 

Randy Grant

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There are RARE circumstances where any 1500 should be towing a fifth wheel. Very rare.

Heck, a 2500 can quickly max out payload towing a fifth wheel if you aren't careful.

A 10,400 GVWR fifth wheel will carry a wet pin weight of somewhere in the 2,000 - 2,100 lb range. The payload capacity of the OPs truck will be somewhere between the 1,300-1,500 lb range if the stars align just right. Add in people and the weight of the hitch itself and it's far exceeded. I would tell the guy at the hitch shop to kick rocks. He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about.
I agree that OP should not think about pulling a fiver with his setup.


This is mine though, and the weights are good for it.
This is what a very rare occasion looks like.

20210114_111945.jpg
 
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ramffml

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I want him to do it, just to get a feel for how long that little 6 banger can wind up before it implodes. For science of course.
 

Randy Grant

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Def. don't try it at home, especially when you consider that sometimes, the road can become your enemy even if you're towing within limits:

Bumper pulls are dangerous. Especially for the inexperienced.
 

mtofell

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Bumper pulls are dangerous. Especially for the inexperienced.
Pretty big generalization. Any trailer is dangerous if setup incorrectly and/or in the wrong hands. There are lots of great WDH and and anti-sway hitches that make for a great experience. IMO by far the biggest problem is people loading trucks to the absolute max (and beyond). With bumper pulls this is half-ton trucks and trailers that are just too large and heavy. I pulled an 8K TT with my 2500 HD with a good WDH and anti-sway and it felt no more or less stable and safe than the current 5th wheel I tow with the same truck.
 

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saw a guy, newish truck, newish trailer, go by, while I was at a Light. he was so overloaded, I followed him, to get his attention and explain soem things. intent was to save his life.

this is somethign of what he looked like

00.jpg

his truck was much lower than the truck, above, while his trailer was both bigger and much lower than the trailer, below..


01.jpg

catch up, beside him , at yet another red light. get his attention and ask him tp pul over as he was dangerous.
His rigs were setup incorrectly.

Will NEVER forget his response.

In the most upper crust, priviledge British type of attitude, possible, from an American.

I;ve been towing for over 20 years, this setup, right hre, for 5 years, I think I know what i am doing.

Well, hate to tell ya, m8ee, one look and it's obvious, to all, you are dumb as a stump.
Please, by all means, carry on.

Someday, I expect to see him on the Darwin Awards listings.
 

nlambert182

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What I don't get more than anything, is that 9 times out of 10 when a thread like this gets started, there will always be a few folks who will flat out scoff at the numbers as if they're just suggestions. "I've towed this way for years and it's completely safe. Ignore the payload sticker and just worry about the axle rating, etc... Some folks are just too hung up on the numbers."

Absolutely... I trust the manufacturer who spent millions of dollars engineering the truck. Every fastener, weld joint, and component was engineered to meet a certain criteria. Combined together those components determine the final spec in which the engineers used to determine things like payload capacity. Sure, there is definitely a margin of error built in. The manufacturer doesn't want you towing on the ragged edge either. They don't want a lawsuit or a repair. Staying below the rated capacity (even if it's just a sticker slapped on for DOT) ensures that I don't really have to be concerned with whether or not I am putting myself, my family, or the general public at risk. Some component ratings are absolutely higher than others... such as an axle rating. Because they don't want it to fail. Doesn't mean you should ignore everything else and just cherry pick the rating that you can stay below.

Just because you "can" tow beyond the spec, or right up to the line leaving zero margin of error doesn't mean that you "should". Often times people do it because they under spec'd a truck or over spec'd the trailer and rather than just admit they made a mistake, they will fight tooth and nail to convince others to make the same mistake they did. I assume to get validation that they weren't wrong. It's ok to be wrong. We all have at some point.

At the end of the day, if you have to install an aftermarket component (minus a WDH/equalizer to control sway within reason) to be able to tow what you want to tow more than likely you need a bigger truck. I started with a 1500, then went to a 2500, and finally to a 3500. It sucked to have to upgrade the truck and spend the extra money but it sure did make the trips less stressful on us and the truck.

You have to pay to play.
 

Random_Walk

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Bumper pulls are dangerous. Especially for the inexperienced.

Any pull by any method is dangerous for the inexperienced, the neglectful, the ignorant, and the stupid.

(and yes, going over max tow is stupid, full-stop.)

I recall being stupid and going way over max tow long ago, mostly because I didn't know any better. I had stupidly assumed that because it was (a 70's-era) F-250, a 35' dual-axle custom-renovated trailer was no problem, in spite of it probably being way over its own GVWR (because I customized it with no regard for weight, including adding larger capacity fresh and gray/black tanks and welding extra braces in place for them, adding a full-sized queen bed, etc).

I obviously survived it, but I still fully remember the stress of having to mind the thing's tendency to sway, as well as the fact that I could drain a pair of 30 gallon gas tanks in pretty short order as that 70s-era 460cid v8 strained like mad to keep it all in motion. I never really connected the fact that the reason the motor was overworked was because the whole thing was overloaded. One pothole, one failed brake magnet, one idiot cutting me off on the freeway, or any unexpected winds? I would've certainly wrecked it. I had just assumed that was the way it is with any tow.

Compare and contrast that mess against this past month, where I towed my new TT home. I counted every ounce before I bought my new (2022) NoBo 19.2, and towing it home was no issue at all. No squat even with no WDH, it tracks beautifully, and the peppy little six-banger had no issue with pulling the trailer over twisty, poorly-maintained mountain roads as I brought it home. Even the massive incline on OR-30 coming up out of Rainier, OR was no big deal, and I could accelerate as I went up that thing. Mind that the trailer's GVWR is 400lb higher than my max tow, but I am zealous about how much weight I pack into the thing (to the point where I'll offload a lot of weight into the bed of the truck, since I still have ~1000lb of spare post-tongue payload margin there.) To my dealer's awesome credit, they put up a custom printed sticker on the door jamb that lists the updated/post-options dry weight and capacities.

But, spoiler alert, 5th-Wheel and Gooseneck towing can get just as tricky at times, and just as dangerous. You do get inherent bigger margins of error to play with in those cases, and it'll feel easier, but because you're playing with bigger weights, you end up with smaller net margins for error once you start pushing those weight limits... you just get to play with higher limits is all.

To summarize - towing is a helluva lot more complex than it looks, and, TL;DR, every ounce counts.
 
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nlambert182

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Any pull by any method is dangerous for the inexperienced, the neglectful, the ignorant, and the stupid.

(and yes, going over max tow is stupid, full-stop.)

I recall being stupid and going way over max tow long ago, mostly because I didn't know any better. I had stupidly assumed that because it was (a 70's-era) F-250, a 35' dual-axle custom-renovated trailer was no problem, in spite of it probably being way over its own GVWR (because I customized it with no regard for weight, including adding larger capacity fresh and gray/black tanks and welding extra braces in place for them, adding a full-sized queen bed, etc).

I obviously survived it, but I still fully remember the stress of having to mind the thing's tendency to sway, as well as the fact that I could drain a pair of 30 gallon gas tanks in pretty short order as that 70s-era 460cid v8 strained like mad to keep it all in motion. I never really connected the fact that the reason the motor was overworked was because the whole thing was overloaded. One pothole, one failed brake magnet, one idiot cutting me off on the freeway, or any unexpected winds? I would've certainly wrecked it. I had just assumed that was the way it is with any tow.

Compare and contrast that mess against this past month, where I towed my new TT home. I counted every ounce before I bought my new (2020) NoBo 19.2, and towing it home was no issue at all. No squat even with no WDH, it tracks beautifully, and the peppy little six-banger had no issue with pulling the trailer over twisty, poorly-maintained mountain roads as I brought it home. Even the massive incline on OR-30 coming up out of Rainier, OR was no big deal, and I could accelerate as I went up that thing. Mind that the trailer's GVWR is 400lb higher than my max tow, but I am zealous about how much weight I pack into the thing (to the point where I'll offload a lot of weight into the bed of the truck, since I still have ~1000lb of spare post-tongue payload margin there.) To my dealer's awesome credit, they put up a custom printed sticker on the door jamb that lists the updated/post-options dry weight and capacities.

But, spoiler alert, 5th-Wheel and Gooseneck towing can get just as tricky at times, and just as dangerous. You do get inherent bigger margins of error to play with in those cases, and it'll feel easier, but because you're playing with bigger weights, you end up with smaller net margins for error once you start pushing those weight limits... you just get to play with higher limits is all.

To summarize - towing is a helluva lot more complex than it looks, and, TL;DR, every ounce counts.
I see this a lot with folks who have 2500s and want to tow a 40'+ fifth wheel. The argument I've seen more often than not is similar to the thinking that the trucks are identical to a 3500 minus an overload leaf (in some cases).

You can still overload it and even though a 2500/3500 share the same engine and transmission... once you start getting a 40'+ long trailer, being able to control sway is still a thing. The only truck that can really help minimize that is a 3500 that is more stable.
 

2003F350

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What I don't get more than anything, is that 9 times out of 10 when a thread like this gets started, there will always be a few folks who will flat out scoff at the numbers as if they're just suggestions. "I've towed this way for years and it's completely safe. Ignore the payload sticker and just worry about the axle rating, etc... Some folks are just too hung up on the numbers."

Absolutely... I trust the manufacturer who spent millions of dollars engineering the truck. Every fastener, weld joint, and component was engineered to meet a certain criteria. Combined together those components determine the final spec in which the engineers used to determine things like payload capacity. Sure, there is definitely a margin of error built in. The manufacturer doesn't want you towing on the ragged edge either. They don't want a lawsuit or a repair. Staying below the rated capacity (even if it's just a sticker slapped on for DOT) ensures that I don't really have to be concerned with whether or not I am putting myself, my family, or the general public at risk. Some component ratings are absolutely higher than others... such as an axle rating. Because they don't want it to fail. Doesn't mean you should ignore everything else and just cherry pick the rating that you can stay below.

Just because you "can" tow beyond the spec, or right up to the line leaving zero margin of error doesn't mean that you "should". Often times people do it because they under spec'd a truck or over spec'd the trailer and rather than just admit they made a mistake, they will fight tooth and nail to convince others to make the same mistake they did. I assume to get validation that they weren't wrong. It's ok to be wrong. We all have at some point.

At the end of the day, if you have to install an aftermarket component (minus a WDH/equalizer to control sway within reason) to be able to tow what you want to tow more than likely you need a bigger truck. I started with a 1500, then went to a 2500, and finally to a 3500. It sucked to have to upgrade the truck and spend the extra money but it sure did make the trips less stressful on us and the truck.

You have to pay to play.

This is where I tend to fall. Sure, manufacturers play games with DOT to make insurance companies and various states happy, but for the most part they do a LOT of stress analysis on the vehicles the build.

Sure, tow ratings and payloads are up from where they were 20-30 years ago, absolutely. That comes from better/lighter materials, higher output engines, etc. etc.

But if you think for a MINUTE that manufacturers don't go through their vehicles looking for EVERY way to save money on them, you're fooling yourself. Frames are engineered to be able to reach a certain point, and if they can take out a couple welds to save money and still meet that spec, they will. Axles and spring combos are rated to a certain point, and if you think they're going to over-spring a truck, you're dead wrong.

Trucks (and all vehicles really) are built to meet certain specs, and yes there's some wiggle room, but it's not the wiggle room of years past. Gone are the days when they simply de-rated an 3500 and slapped 2500 badges on it. Sure the axles and engine/trans might be the same, but the springs are different, and there's a possibility that the 2500 frame doesn't have as many welds as the 3500 (I don't know for sure, but it would not surprise me in the LEAST).
 

2003F350

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All jokes aside.... I've actually been in rv parks multiple times where guys come in with a half ton truck and a fifth wheel. My curiosity got the best of me one time so I approached the neighbor to check out his setup.

2017-18ish F150, Crew Cab, 4wd Lariat. Pulling a Keystone Cougar "half-ton towable"fifth wheel. In the initial course of our conversation, he mentioned that my 3500 seemed a bit overkill for my fifth wheel. Mind you.... 2020 Coachmen Chaparral 392MBL. 43' long, 15,500 lbs loaded. Why not just use a 2500? Because it didn't have the payload. His answer.... just do what I did... Extra springs, airbags, etc... Make it tow more. I explained that adding all of those helpers doesn't make the truck tow more. It doesn't do anything to increase the weight the tires can handle, axles, brakes, cooling, etc... It's like getting a chihuahua on steroids where I could have just gotten a pit bull. He then asked if I ever had a problem with trans or engine cooling with my rig. Short answer... never. Not even towing up a 7% grade for miles. He was finding times where he would have to get out of the throttle because the truck was getting hot. Imagine that.

We sat around and chatted for quite the while and came back to the payload on his truck. "The RV salesman told me that I could tow this rig with ANY half ton pickup." I told him quite simply, salesmen lie. "But... the payload on my truck is 2,100 lbs. The hitch weight of my camper is 1,500 lbs, so I'm all good."


OP - take this example into serious consideration.

He thought he was within payload. So I took him to his door sticker. Actual payload on his door sticker was 1,684 lbs.
"But.... Ford says max payload is 2,100 lbs." MAX payload on a single cab, 2wd F150 XL was 2,100 lbs with the max tow package and one 150 lb passenger.

We proceeded to do some real math. He had his wife, his son, and their dog with them.
Dad - ~200 lbs (-150 lb for driver, so 50 lbs)
Mom - ~130 lbs
Son - ~130 lbs
Dog - ~30 lbs

Total passenger weight: 340 lbs
He was using a B&W slider hitch - 287 lbs (used to have the same one)
He had to get the B&W Gooseneck prep kit installed - 141 lbs

Remember that original payload number? 1684 lbs? Considering the weight of everything mentioned above, his available payload was 916 lbs BEFORE ever hooking to the rig. This rig was loaded to the hilt, so I would almost guarantee that he was overweight on the camper (but no way to tell in the park).

At a minimum he was almost 800 lbs overloaded. The truck just didn't have what he needed. But... the salesman told him he could do it so in his mind, there was no need to check for himself. In fairness, I learned this lesson the hard way myself once. It only took once.
I've often wondered how a conversation like this would go with some of the guys I've seen in an RV park. Then I take a look at the family and decide it simply isn't worth it because they don't really look like they would take too kindly to being questioned.

Glad you found someone willing to talk about it, and who was open (at least somewhat) to being told he was doing it wrong.

Having been around RVs for most of my life, I've learned these lessons through watching others, studying the numbers, and just plain experience.

My parents' first camper was an old Cree (anyone remember those?) fifth wheel. Dad pulled it with a '78 regular cab, long box 2wd F150. Had 4 of us in the cab. My younger sister came along and he went with a GMC crew cab dually, 4x4, 6.2 diesel. Since then his primary vehicle has been a crew cab dually, up to his current truck (an F450). I doubt he'll ever go back to a half ton truck, because in his mind he'll never want for more truck if he's got the biggest on the market. To date, they have a 42' Cedar Creek and his 12.5' truck camper (I don't remember the make), and that F450 doesn't blink at either of them.
 

nlambert182

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This is where I tend to fall. Sure, manufacturers play games with DOT to make insurance companies and various states happy, but for the most part they do a LOT of stress analysis on the vehicles the build.

Sure, tow ratings and payloads are up from where they were 20-30 years ago, absolutely. That comes from better/lighter materials, higher output engines, etc. etc.

But if you think for a MINUTE that manufacturers don't go through their vehicles looking for EVERY way to save money on them, you're fooling yourself. Frames are engineered to be able to reach a certain point, and if they can take out a couple welds to save money and still meet that spec, they will. Axles and spring combos are rated to a certain point, and if you think they're going to over-spring a truck, you're dead wrong.

Trucks (and all vehicles really) are built to meet certain specs, and yes there's some wiggle room, but it's not the wiggle room of years past. Gone are the days when they simply de-rated an 3500 and slapped 2500 badges on it. Sure the axles and engine/trans might be the same, but the springs are different, and there's a possibility that the 2500 frame doesn't have as many welds as the 3500 (I don't know for sure, but it would not surprise me in the LEAST).
I think you're agreeing with me, but not sure. :) I know they've cut corners. But at the same time they also rate the truck for what it can safely handle. They won't save a nickel if they think it might cost them a dime down the road in litigation.

If I am not mistaken (and I can't recall where I found this) it seems like I remember reading that the frame is slightly beefier in some areas on the 3500s than the 2500s. But I could be mistaken. Springs are absolutely different.

To me though, what you say makes an even better argument against overloading a truck.
 

2003F350

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I think you're agreeing with me, but not sure. :) I know they've cut corners. But at the same time they also rate the truck for what it can safely handle. They won't save a nickel if they think it might cost them a dime down the road in litigation.

If I am not mistaken (and I can't recall where I found this) it seems like I remember reading that the frame is slightly beefier in some areas on the 3500s than the 2500s. But I could be mistaken. Springs are absolutely different.

To me though, what you say makes an even better argument against overloading a truck.
Oh I am absolutely agreeing with you. Having worked in the auto industry (and still partially attached to it), I know what their thought process is on their approach to building vehicles that a lot of people don't seem to get anymore. If they can save a nickel now, and slap a limit on the vehicle saying 'don't do this,' then they're covered later when someone does it and tries to sue: "We plainly stated on this document not to do that."
 
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