Possible cam/lifter wiped

[wgreggking]

Correct the Roller end was perfect.
When the internal part of the MDS lifter, as you shake it in your hand should move back and forth, it did not. It was in the Collapsed mode with the push-rod and rocker slapping around?
My mechanic, when he first heard it, Said it might be just one lifter.

When cold starting, just to move it, I usually let it run a minute or two before turn off. Generally I did not have cold start ticking, as it isn't too cold here at 3200 ft. elevation, 20 degrees. Now in Flagstaff, below zero cold starts were kinda scary noisy.

 

[wgreggking]

I'm glad you got your HEMI back up and running and ready for another 100k miles.

Imo, I'd move up to the larger Royal Purple 20-820 if it'll fit or the Royal Purple 20-500. That RP 10-48 is less in oil filtration, but that would be what I would do after lifter/cam,etc. replacement.

Hammer down and Happy Motoring.

Ever watch the show on motortrend TV, Engine Masters?
They tested multiple filters, brands, sizes, flow rates, on the Dyno, same engine, wasn't too much differences.
Might try the 20-820

 

[JHoward]

Ever watch the show on motortrend TV, Engine Masters?
They tested multiple filters, brands, sizes, flow rates, on the Dyno, same engine, wasn't too much differences.
Might try the 20-820

View attachment 512892

... quality of oil filtration/surface area amount and the oil filter media w/spun micro glass filter media versus semi synthetic paper blends.

I've learned a few things here in the RAMforum (Oil Filter thread) about the oil filter that would be most beneficial for the Drama Queen HEMI engine.

 

[wgreggking]

... quality of oil filtration/surface area amount and the oil filter media w/spun micro glass filter media versus semi synthetic paper blends.

I've learned a few things here in the RAMforum (Oil Filter thread) about the oil filter that would be most beneficial for the Drama Queen HEMI engine.

will see if 20-820 filter fits, 2500.
Been following and learning oil/filter issues since I got the truck in 17, and my sons 14. I have had oil analysis, cut filters open, tried several brands, lots to learn here. transmission heater delete, and servicing diffs, transfer case, much more. Do almost all my maint., All to get 200-250 K miles out of "most vehicles" Ive owned. My 02 Dakota went almost 250K.

 

[wgreggking]

Does It really fit?

 

[White six four]

Does It really fit?


View attachment 512897

It fits on my 16. I'm currently running the fram xg2 since it's a lot easier to get.

 

[wgreggking]

^^^^thanks white 64, Get my RL 0w40 & RP filters at summit

 

[buckeyexx]

Does It really fit?


View attachment 512897

It fit my 2015 6.4 when I had it but some other members have said it didnt fit theirs. Not sure what or why difference but it was an issue on some I guess.

 

[HEMIMANN]

what you state is 100% accurate, however the OP said his lifter stuck internally, the roller end was fine in this case. I think he just got unlucky, although on occasion I get lifter tap on a cold start after a short run just to move the truck in and out of my garage to get other items out.

To the point that I now let it run a little longer when I move it back in and rev it to 2k rpm and hold it there until I see full oil pressure for a minute, then I let it idle a few seconds and shut it down.

That seems to have helped stop that cold lifter tap a significant amount.

Guess I'm unclear what is meant by "stuck internally". There are 3 relative motions in an MDS lifter...roller and pin, lifter and bore, MDS piston and lifter cylinder.

The usual "stuck" reports have been the roller frozen to the pin, creating a sliding tappet with a round profile instead of flat profile - worst of all worlds with two "point" contacts banging against each other. This is the infamous Hemi "tick". With this high, destructive stress, the roller soon pits the surface, sometimes turns sideways in the lifter bore, then gouges out the cam lobe.

The OP said he quickly stopped driving and operating the engine to mitigate damage. Isn't it then possible he save the roller?

 

[JHoward]

Does It really fit?


View attachment 512897

One member here in the RAM forums could not use the RP20-820 on his 6.4 HEMI due to, the lower water pump/radiator hose?, was positioned to where the larger diameter oil filter wouldn't fit and opted for the Royal Purple 20-500. It's almost the same diameter as the RP 10-48 but taller having more oil filtration capabilities.

On the 5.7 HEMI when the electrical power assist replaced the traditional power steering pump set up(2013ish), the Chrysler team decided to move to a smaller oil filter for the ease of fitment and obviously not concerned about filter filtration needs.

Imo, the 6.4 HEMI being an workhorse in the RAM trucks segment that using/needing an oil filter with a lot of filter media shouldn't have been jeopardized/compromised as to where the oil filter is located ... at the front of the engine.

jm2¢

Happy Motoring!

 

[EdGs]

It fits on my 16. I'm currently running the fram xg2 since it's a lot easier to get.

Same here with XG2

 

[ramffml]

Guess I'm unclear what is meant by "stuck internally". There are 3 relative motions in an MDS lifter...roller and pin, lifter and bore, MDS piston and lifter cylinder.

The usual "stuck" reports have been the roller frozen to the pin, creating a sliding tappet with a round profile instead of flat profile - worst of all worlds with two "point" contacts banging against each other. This is the infamous Hemi "tick". With this high, destructive stress, the roller soon pits the surface, sometimes turns sideways in the lifter bore, then gouges out the cam lobe.

The OP said he quickly stopped driving and operating the engine to mitigate damage. Isn't it then possible he save the roller?

The lifter "collapses" when it gets pressurized oil from the MDS system. Basically it allows the bottom to continue rolling up/down over the cam, but the top of the lifter doesn't move anymore (valves stay closed). My guess is that some crud/varnish gummed up the internal bits of that lifter so that it stayed collapsed instead of returning to normal mode once MDS was deactivated.

At least, that's how I read it.

 

[HEMIMANN]

The lifter "collapses" when it gets pressurized oil from the MDS system. Basically it allows the bottom to continue rolling up/down over the cam, but the top of the lifter doesn't move anymore (valves stay closed). My guess is that some crud/varnish gummed up the internal bits of that lifter so that it stayed collapsed instead of returning to normal mode once MDS was deactivated.

At least, that's how I read it.

Yeah, I know how it works, but didn't interpret the description that way.

 

[GsRAM]

Correct the Roller end was perfect.
When the internal part of the MDS lifter, as you shake it in your hand should move back and forth, it did not. It was in the Collapsed mode with the push-rod and rocker slapping around?
My mechanic, when he first heard it, Said it might be just one lifter.

When cold starting, just to move it, I usually let it run a minute or two before turn off. Generally I did not have cold start ticking, as it isn't too cold here at 3200 ft. elevation, 20 degrees. Now in Flagstaff, below zero cold starts were kinda scary noisy.

Thanks for confirming. Most of the lifter failures seen here are on the roller end, specifically the bearings for that roller.

 

[GsRAM]

Does It really fit?


View attachment 512897

Yes the 20-820 will fit on a 6.4 hemi, at least I had no issues with it on my 17.
I'm running wix sp now, but am going back to the 20~820 in April when I complete the annual service. Going back with redline 5w30 again also. I'm happy with it over the course of this past year running it.

 

[Hemi832]

I went through this and what I see here is that you have one amazing mechanic. The time period for this repair is great. My truck sat at the dealer for 3 months waiting for parts, and this was a year before covid. Hats off to that mechanic! That is how you keep customers!

 

[HEMIMANN]

This sounds like an MDS mechanism failure - quit different than the lifter roller seize-up, yes?

Haven't heard of too many of these. For the internal lifter piston to collapse, the hydraulic linkage pin would have to be stuck pushed in. Isn't the internal piston then free to rattle? i.e. - when not in MDS mode, the pin is spring loaded pushing out and acts like a shear pin between the internal piston and outer lifter shell, locking them together - with the piston locked in the upward position to push on the pushrod.

So the lifter should not rattle in the normal configuration, right? OP says it rattles. I don't understand, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

 

[ramffml]

This sounds like an MDS mechanism failure - quit different than the lifter roller seize-up, yes?

Haven't heard of too many of these. For the internal lifter piston to collapse, the hydraulic linkage pin would have to be stuck pushed in. Isn't the internal piston then free to rattle? i.e. - when not in MDS mode, the pin is spring loaded pushing out and acts like a shear pin between the internal piston and outer lifter shell, locking them together - with the piston locked in the upward position to push on the pushrod.

So the lifter should not rattle in the normal configuration, right? OP says it rattles. I don't understand, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

Just one more reason to run a high quality oil which doesn't varnish and has exceptional cleaning ability. Got to keep that finicky MDS and needle bearing stuff whistle clean!

 

[HEMIMANN]

Being the failure analysis engineer I am, I wonder what caused the MDS lock pin to fail? Spring fatigue? Pin fatigue? Stuck pin in bore (from oil degradation deposits)?