Project Farm Air Filter Tests

[CVX20]

I understand, this discussion has been going back and forth for some time, I don't deny you found what you said, but at the same time when searching some other forums concerning K&N filters I find many quotes like this one:
"I installed a K&N filter in my 1986 Honda Accord and after 16 years and 250,000 miles, the only thing that was right with the car was the engine. Rust was taking its toll on the rest of the car. The engine ran like the day I bought the car. I did not notice any power increase over the paper filter.

"My present car is a 1999 Honda Accord with 105,000 miles and 11 years on it. Not one problem to mention with the installed K&N. I did not notice any power increase".

In doing a quick google search I find many people on auto forums who hate the K&N system saying they are the worst filters out there (mostly anecdotal statements)....but at the same time in a 10 minute search, I found many reviews by automotive sites that when reviewing their top rated filters K&N is right at the top....talking about their superior or excellent filtering qualities.

I telL ya'.....a real head scratcher!
I'm going to mark it down to just personal preference i.e. An F-150 guy says Silverado and Ram are crap...a Silverado guy says Ram and Ford are crap and on and on with every competing product out there.

A Honda would go 300 k without a filter LOL

 

[Bottomfeeder]

I don't think anyone is saying K&N filters are crap but it has been shown that they do let more dirt through than paper filters and if there's no power increase why bother having one? Just the fact that they have to be frequently cleaned and re-oiled(properly re-oiled that is) is enough for me to not ever buy another. At least go with a dry filter.

Well, from my research lots of people are saying they are crap and worse, but since I am under quarantine for another week I have lots of time to research this subject, I came across a video of David Vizard, an engine building guru who has been building engines for over 50 years, He has written over 40 books on the subject and has over 4,000 articles written on engines....he tested K&N filters and says they work wonderfully and deliver clean air to the engine,and it filters down to the micron level!... but it took him a long time to figure out why, (K&N didn't even know why they worked) it isn't what you would think, in this video clip he starts talking about k&N filters around 3:00 minutes in, please watch for about 12 minutes while he explains the process that takes place with the K&N...it is fascinating.

 

[Bottomfeeder]

A Honda would go 300 k without a filter LOL

hahaha....please see the video I posted just above for an explanation.

 

[Bottomfeeder]

Any filter that "flows more, more HP" Lets in more dirt. ( UNLESS you increase the surface area)! Make the filter UUUUHUGE.

One would think that would be the the case, but with the k&n it isn't.
The true test on how well an air filter is working is in a used oil analysis, the site I will link to has done multiple oil analysis on k&n filters and has shown that the k&n filters out more dirt than an OEM filter.

 

[CVX20]

One would think that would be the the case, but with the k&n it isn't.
The true test on how well an air filter is working is in a used oil analysis, the site I will link to has done multiple oil analysis on k&n filters and has shown that the k&n filters out more dirt than an OEM filter.

Thanks for posting.I'll stick with OEM.
Seems to be a lot of different results on these types of tests depending on whose doing them.The problem I see with an oiled filter is how do you know if you have enough oil or not enough?Or how do you know it's evenly covered.Too easy to screw up IMHO.

 

[OLEJOE]

Longevity of the engine is my primary and only concern as far as air filtration is concerned. I don’t care if it makes it louder or quieter or if it increases horsepower 5, 10 or even 20 hp at top rated rpm. When I work my truck with the CTD, it’s from 1400 to 1800 rpm. As I said before, efficiency is waaay more important to me than airflow. If you have good experiences with what ever filter you run, go for it. I did not, nor my son have that with the K&N. He sold his 95’ GMC p/u with 275,000 and zero oil consumption running paper air filters. And I guarantee you that it hit the rev limiter regularly. Again, use what ever you like, it’s your nickel.

 

[Bottomfeeder]

Longevity of the engine is my primary and only concern as far as air filtration is concerned. I don’t care if it makes it louder or quieter or if it increases horsepower 5, 10 or even 20 hp at top rated rpm. When I work my truck with the CTD, it’s from 1400 to 1800 rpm. As I said before, efficiency is waaay more important to me than airflow. If you have good experiences with what ever filter you run, go for it. I did not, nor my son have that with the K&N. He sold his 95’ GMC p/u with 275,000 and zero oil consumption running paper air filters. And I guarantee you that it hit the rev limiter regularly. Again, use what ever you like, it’s your nickel.

I agree with your statement 100%. The reason this conversation (at least on my part) was to see if k&n was as bad as so many say, it seems it is almost a cottage industry, the trashing of k&n..I had heard this in various user forum for years... almost always anecdotal 'proof' without a lot of test data to prove their point.

I always wondered how k&n could stay in business if all these forum user statements were true, we are such a litigious society and i figured they would be sued off the map because it should be pretty easy to prove if an engine was ruined due to an inherently faulty air filter design.

So since I'm stuck in the house as most of us are, and am bored I decided to do some research on the subject, and I must say after looking at both sides of the issue, and the science behind how a k&n works according to master engine builder David Vizard (which on the surface looks counter intuitive with the 'see through' high flow filter) and seeing other various tests on k&n filters such as used oil analyses, I would have no problem running a k&n.
but again, I have no skin in this game...I too run a mopar paper filter.

But I do enjoy a good back and forth discussion, thanks for adding to it.

 

[Rowdy Ram]

i have notice with k/n and the like is that MAFS get alot dirtier ...

 

[OLEJOE]

i have notice with k/n and the like is that MAFS get alot dirtier ...

They claim that is from over oiling the filter. If the amount of oil is that specific, too much or not enough or incomplete coverage, I’ll just stick with the paper element. If I could come up with a product and get a few people using it in certain situations to announce how great it was and convince people that they need it, I would be a billionaire whether it worked or not. Get an engine dusted, not enough oil or leaking intake plumbing. MAFS goes out, too much oil. Not servicing enough or too much. Anyhow, I use what I use and not trying to change anyone’s mind. Bored as heck. All dressed up and nowhere to go.

 

[OLEJOE]

And I should add, getting blind as a bat staring at this phone.

 

[OCDTech]

I think the theory with the oil, is that its a red color, so after you use the cleaner and clean the filter it seems a greyish color. So as you spray the oil it tints it red to see the coverage.

This is from the memory of me using them years ago.

 

[Bottomfeeder]

i have notice with k/n and the like is that MAFS get alot dirtier ...

I am quickly learning there are three things you never talk about...religion, politics and k&n filters.

One thing I have learned in over 40 years of driving and buying new cars (I have a bad habit of doing that every three years) is dealers hate aftermarket products...they are always to blame for whatever goes wrong.

Read on a Mercedes forum where this guys catalytic converter went out and the dealer blamed it on his k&n filter, something about making it run to rich...said they wouldn't honor the warranty.
The guy called k&n, they got involved and what do you know, the dealer ended up covering the warranty.

K&N is very aggressive to fight these sort of claims, to the point of telling it's customers to contact them if any dealers claims a k&n product was to blame for a failure.

This Mass air fuel sensor is one such issue, k&n says they have sold 50 million filters and have had 234 claims against them over the MAF being mucked up by their filter, K&N has never paid a penny on those claims.

You would be hard pressed to find any large company who hasn't been sued and lost...but I've been searching for lawsuits that K&N might have lost over these issues since there are so many claims online about how they ruin engines or MAFS.....but I can't find any, maybe they are out there but I didn't find them, but I did find a lawsuit that K&N won against a competitor who made false claims against K&N:

This is from PowerSports Business.

"In the suit, K&N alleged that Spectre intentionally made false claims regarding its air filters and air intake systems, which are similar to the cotton gauze high-flow air filters K&N invented.

After hearing seven days of testimony from 14 witnesses and seeing hundreds of exhibits, the jury deliberated for three hours and ruled in favor of K&N, awarding K&N $7.3 million in compensation from Spectre. The jury also ruled against an allegation by Spectre that K&N falsely advertised the horsepower capabilities of its air intake systems. In that ruling, the jury found K&N's advertising was not false."

It's interesting that Spectre was sued and lost for making false claims about their filters...it would stand to reason that K&N would lose these lawsuits too if their stated claims were false.

 

[Hemi395]

The only oiled filter I would 100% trust is S&B. They have a system for putting the exact amount of oil on the filter so it's not over or under oiled.

Other than that the AEM dryflow is another good choice if you don't want to change filters all the time but honestly the oem or Wix paper filters are the safest bet for filtration.

Also for those that don't know you can use the Ecodiesel/6.4 filter in the the 5.7 airbox. It has deeper pleets and therefore can hold more dirt and flow better.

https://parts.allmoparparts.com/oem...wMCZ5PTIwMTYmdD1iaWctaG9ybiZlPTYtNGwtdjgtZ2Fz

 

[SitKneelBend]

The only oiled filter I would 100% trust is S&B. They have a system for putting the exact amount of oil on the filter so it's not over or under oiled.

Other than that the AEM dryflow is another good choice if you don't want to change filters all the time but honestly the oem or Wix paper filters are the safest bet for filtration.

Also for those that don't know you can use the Ecodiesel/6.4 filter in the the 5.7 airbox. It has deeper pleets and therefore can hold more dirt and flow better.

https://parts.allmoparparts.com/oem...wMCZ5PTIwMTYmdD1iaWctaG9ybiZlPTYtNGwtdjgtZ2Fz



Want your BW44-44 to fully lock? Contact @Brandon-w for a locking switch

I replaced the AEM dry flow with a Wix after seeing the video. I know it wasn't tested but to me the construction appears identical to K&N filters and if I'm not mistaken is actually owned by K&N.

I don't know what the difference is but I do know the Wix is likely more restrictive and I want this truck to last 15 to 20 years (or more)...

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[Hemi395]

I replaced the AEM dry flow with a Wix after seeing the video. I know it wasn't tested but to me the construction appears identical to K&N filters and if I'm not mistaken is actually owned by K&N.

I don't know what the difference is but I do know the Wix is likely more restrictive and I want this truck to last 15 to 20 years (or more)...

Sent from my HTC U11 using Tapatalk

That's a good point I believe they are owned by K&N. Yup I would stick with Wix/Mopar.

 

[kurek]

An observation I've made in my career of buying used cars & trucks... the older & more miles a "survivor" has, the more likely that survivor is basically stock (or was, for most of its life) - that might speak of the kind of owner who leaves well enough alone or it might have something to do with aftermarket parts, filters, intakes... who knows. But when I'm shopping used vehicles if I lift the hood and there's so-called performance stuff under there I suddenly want the vehicle less.

The gas vaporizing deal ( Always heard that myth about the government takeing the car back from the mechanic.) Don't know if you've heard that urban legend.

Anyway that test put the myth to bed for me. IE Busted.

Funny how decades ago urban legends had a lot more staying power.. there were clever people I knew - people with paying careers as engineers - who would repeat all these magic carburetor legends.

But you have to figure that there have been tens of thousands of people by now who have been employed as powertrain engineers by companies with a LOT to gain by offering high MPG.. if Ram could offer a 50mpg Hemi they'd drown in the money it'd make them.
As it turns out, the combustion process is very well understood and peak BSFC hasn't changed a lot because all the low hanging fruit really was plucked years ago. Multispeed transmissions are allowing engines to stay in the optimal range more often and flexible timing of all engine operations (valves, ignition, fuel injection, etc) are widening the peak BSFC island but there's still no such thing as a "200mpg V8" and the mythical magic carburetor definitely never existed.

 

[OCDTech]

An observation I've made in my career of buying used cars & trucks... the older & more miles a "survivor" has, the more likely that survivor is basically stock (or was, for most of its life) - that might speak of the kind of owner who leaves well enough alone or it might have something to do with aftermarket parts, filters, intakes... who knows. But when I'm shopping used vehicles if I lift the hood and there's so-called performance stuff under there I suddenly want the vehicle less.




Funny how decades ago urban legends had a lot more staying power.. there were clever people I knew - people with paying careers as engineers - who would repeat all these magic carburetor legends.

But you have to figure that there have been tens of thousands of people by now who have been employed as powertrain engineers by companies with a LOT to gain by offering high MPG.. if Ram could offer a 50mpg Hemi they'd drown in the money it'd make them.
As it turns out, the combustion process is very well understood and peak BSFC hasn't changed a lot because all the low hanging fruit really was plucked years ago. Multispeed transmissions are allowing engines to stay in the optimal range more often and flexible timing of all engine operations (valves, ignition, fuel injection, etc) are widening the peak BSFC island but there's still no such thing as a "200mpg V8" and the mythical magic carburetor definitely never existed.

Now that I’m thinking about it how about the guy that supposedly got murdered for the water engine. Poisoned I think out of a restaurant What do you think of that one

Seems more than an urban legend. Theres info on it


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[kurek]

Heh, separating water to burn the hydrogen? Keep in mind that hydrogen is the lightest atom there is, even though numerically water is 2/3 hydrogen, by mass it's about 11%. If you get out your calculators and fool around a bit you'll discover that even if you got your cracked water molecules for free, you would need to haul around 400 gallons of water to match the range you get from your slightly less cumbersome tank of gasoline.

I should add that incidentally this is the same reason vehicles burning high blends of ethanol (e85, etc) get fewer miles per gallon. On a per-horsepower basis they're actually burning fewer hydrocarbons but ethanol contains oxygen, which has mass and takes up volume in your gas tank. On pure petroleum you get all that oxygen for free from the atmosphere.

Whether water or petroleum (or any other hydrocarbon) you're still ultimately slamming hydrogen and oxygen together with a bunch of other atoms coming along for the ride, the rest is all just ratios and byproducts - and whether you get the initial atoms from a tank or through an air filter.

 

[NY Andrew]

Wonder what his results would be for Mopar CAI. No oil. Not paper. Reusable, just clean and dry.

Also curious how K&N cabin air filter is then...just got it and about to install it.....

 

[SitKneelBend]

Wonder what his results would be for Mopar CAI. No oil. Not paper. Reusable, just clean and dry.

Also curious how K&N cabin air filter is then...just got it and about to install it.....

Sometimes if you ask on his channel he'll include it in the next video of a series.

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