Pulsar 2023 Ram 2500 Power wagon

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gt8684

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Look you know you can assume whatever you want. I simply asked questions, most of my first comments were questions about your comments on "no" and "low" oil with MDS disabled and how horrible it is to not have it on. I don't doubt that everyone else here is smarter than me, but when your comment is simply read another 16 page post, that literally is just people patting you on the back or asking more questions that also don't get answers. Hell on one of your posts after mikeru you even agreed with him and he was literally saying what I have been saying. and the Reignited video you shared, he said himself he has seen all kinds of failures on all models. Still nothing directly saying disabling MDS is causing no or low oil flow to the lifters except "some internet guru"
 

CanuckRam1313

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It's a matter of perspective: is it truly "cutting" oil to the lifters when NOT using MDS, or, is it adding oil to the lifters as a by product of forcing the MDS system to activate?

That is the question.

No doubt there is somewhat less oil getting to the lifters with MDS disabled, but the second question is, "does it matter".

I appreciate @Wild one 's posts on all this, doesn't hurt to have more discussion. As of now though, IMHO it doesn't harm the engine to run with MDS disabled permanently as I have done for about 60,000 miles now since new, while towing a fair amount as well.
I guess time will tell!
And this all, I don't disagree with whatsoever, too!

I ran my 19' from brand new to a bit under 6 months ago when I traded her in on the precipice of 170,000Km's, and rare was the time that I didn't put it in 8th gear and run it, regardless of conditions, with MDS off.

She was flawless in her operating each and every single day, and with every used oil analysis from Blackstone, too.

However, I am now into my new Ram and also have a keen understanding of the "what ifs" going through my mind.

So many things to consider, etc. This said, I now work my system now as described initially in hopes that I can still have a fantastic HEMI 5.7 ownership experience.

Was I lucky/fortunate that nothing negative happened to my 19' whist in my ownership, or, was it that it wasn't an issue to begin with... who knows!!!
 

JHoward

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And this all, I don't disagree with whatsoever, too!

I ran my 19' from brand new to a bit under 6 months ago when I traded her in on the precipice of 170,000Km's, and rare was the time that I didn't put it in 8th gear and run it, regardless of conditions, with MDS off.

She was flawless in her operating each and every single day, and with every used oil analysis from Blackstone, too.

However, I am now into my new Ram and also have a keen understanding of the "what ifs" going through my mind.

So many things to consider, etc. This said, I now work my system now as described initially in hopes that I can still have a fantastic HEMI 5.7 ownership experience.

Was I lucky/fortunate that nothing negative happened to my 19' whist in my ownership, or, was it that it wasn't an issue to begin with... who knows!!!

It's a crap shoot, imo.

I've manually by-passed the MDS in my 2017 HEMI @ currently 51,000 miles, on most of those miles with no apparent problems.

I've recently stopped by-passing the MDS feature after reading Rick's recent post about disabling it due to poor lubrication when turned off.

My HEMI still sounds and runs smooth ... now that I made note, my HEMI will probably implode on itself ...
 
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Tulecreeper

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Not being much of a gearhead, especially not with any of the engines built in the the last 2 decades, I'm wondering if some/much of this isn't psychological. Having an 8-cylinder engine drop all the way into 4-cylinder mode, all else being equal, cuts your horsepower in half and who wants to lose half their HP. Now, if they had it only drop from 8-cyl to 6-cyl would there be as much wailing and gnashing of teeth? I'll bet not. The only reason they came up with the MDS in the first place is to try to comply with those BS CAFE standards.

I will continue to run it with MDS disabled the majority of the time for a couple personal reasons. 1) I do a lot of my driving at sub-highway speeds, and I see no great advantage of it continuously kicking from 8-cyl to 4-cyl all the time when I'm in traffic or just puttering around town, and , 2) The change in throttle feel and that low-decibel growl when it drops into MDS mode just really bugs me.

I will in the future try to remember to re-enable the MDS most of the time when I hit highway speed for any length of time when I'm not towing because, you know, it's there so why not take advantage of it occasionally. I care nothing about MPG, but my lifetime MPG since I bought the truck over a year ago is running right at 13 MPG, and that is mostly because until recently I always disabled the MDS. In the past couple weeks since I filled up the last time I have enabled it a lot when I hit 45 MPH and it will regularly get +/- 25 MPG at that speed, so why not use that to my advantage once in a while.

Just my musings, of course.
 

ramffml

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Not being much of a gearhead, especially not with any of the engines built in the the last 2 decades, I'm wondering if some/much of this isn't psychological. Having an 8-cylinder engine drop all the way into 4-cylinder mode, all else being equal, cuts your horsepower in half and who wants to lose half their HP. Now, if they had it only drop from 8-cyl to 6-cyl would there be as much wailing and gnashing of teeth? I'll bet not. The only reason they came up with the MDS in the first place is to try to comply with those BS CAFE standards.

I will continue to run it with MDS disabled the majority of the time for a couple personal reasons. 1) I do a lot of my driving at sub-highway speeds, and I see no great advantage of it continuously kicking from 8-cyl to 4-cyl all the time when I'm in traffic or just puttering around town, and , 2) The change in throttle feel and that low-decibel growl when it drops into MDS mode just really bugs me.

I will in the future try to remember to re-enable the MDS most of the time when I hit highway speed for any length of time when I'm not towing because, you know, it's there so why not take advantage of it occasionally. I care nothing about MPG, but my lifetime MPG since I bought the truck over a year ago is running right at 13 MPG, and that is mostly because until recently I always disabled the MDS. In the past couple weeks since I filled up the last time I have enabled it a lot when I hit 45 MPH and it will regularly get +/- 25 MPG at that speed, so why not use that to my advantage once in a while.

Just my musings, of course.

Why I turn it off... because it loses power on the low end, and worst of all, completely stresses those 4 remaining cylinders out. They are now running much harder, close to what I consider "lugging" (high power demand at low rpms). Not a fan, a v8 should be loafing along on all 8 at highway speeds.

I admit that I could be wrong... but I also know that I can't change my behaviour, I'm simply never going to run with MDS active.

I do UOA's with every oil change, and they all show decreasing iron except for a little bump in the last one due to running 5w-20 instead of 30 grade like I normally do. It shows my engine is in excellent health so I'm going to continue doing that.

Recently I started letting it trigger on/off a few times one trip per week, just to keep everything lubed and in working order as I want it to work correctly while it's still installed, but eventually I'd like to rip it out.
 

Docwagon1776

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Having an 8-cylinder engine drop all the way into 4-cylinder mode, all else being equal, cuts your horsepower in half and who wants to lose half their HP.

In this case, all else is never equal. When the truck goes into 4 cylinder mode, the amount of fuel supplied to those 4 cylinders is dramatically increased exactly because the energy needs don't change. If you cut the hp in half, the vehicle would immediately decelerate. It still takes "X" amount of energy required to keep the truck moving at the current speed, and that X remains the same regardless of how many cylinders are supplying that energy.


The efficiency gains are from a reduction in pumping losses. Since the valves don't open, the air trapped in the cylinder works like a little trampoline or spring, storing the energy via compression then helping push the piston back down vs the energy being used to shove the air out the exhaust port and suck new air in the intake port.
 

Wild one

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Why I turn it off... because it loses power on the low end, and worst of all, completely stresses those 4 remaining cylinders out. They are now running much harder, close to what I consider "lugging" (high power demand at low rpms). Not a fan, a v8 should be loafing along on all 8 at highway speeds.

I admit that I could be wrong... but I also know that I can't change my behaviour, I'm simply never going to run with MDS active.

I do UOA's with every oil change, and they all show decreasing iron except for a little bump in the last one due to running 5w-20 instead of 30 grade like I normally do. It shows my engine is in excellent health so I'm going to continue doing that.

Recently I started letting it trigger on/off a few times one trip per week, just to keep everything lubed and in working order as I want it to work correctly while it's still installed, but eventually I'd like to rip it out.
The Hemi has no issues with the crank or rod bearings,but does have issues with cams.

I have a couple ideas on what Ma Mopar should of done,but the only one that's realistic for the average owner is to run the Johnson lifters with axle oiling,but that entails also checking puhrod length,and running better valve springs. The other couple ideas i've kicked around is to machine in 3 small grooves in the lifter bore,1 at 12:00 / 1 at 3:00 and 1 at 9:00 that would feed oil past the lifter bore and down onto the cam lobe and lifter axle,the other couple of ideas i've had,is to re-engineer the piston squirters so they had 2 feeds,with one feed dedicated to the wrist pin,and the other feed dedicated to the cam lobes,i've also kicked around the idea of drilling small holes in the VVT tunnel that would shoot a stream of oil onto the lobes,all these ideas would require either a Hellcat or Melling high volumn pump.
I have some weird ideas when i'm laying in bed :Big Laugh: :Big Laugh:
 

NevadaNick

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Explain why my previous work truck went 200k mi without lifter failure while the mds was virtually always disabled just from the load it carried.
 

Wild one

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Explain why my previous work truck went 200k mi without lifter failure while the mds was virtually always disabled just from the load it carried.
Some guys get lucky,some don't,you were one of the lucky ones,go buy yourself a lottery ticket,lol
Being a company vehicle it probably got the crap drove out of it,which is one of the best things you can do to a hemi,babying them is a recipe for disaster.
Maybe you can explain why i get 200,000 miles out of a set pads and rotors on my company 1 ton ,seeing as how we're trying to explain things:Big Laugh: :Big Laugh:
 

ramffml

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At this point I view cam/lifter failures like I do wheel bearing failures. I replaced a wheel bearing just before 60k miles, the other 3 are perfect and might go another 60k. There is no flaw in the axles or lubrication of them, sometime you just get a bad one. :shrug:

I'm still going to run the best oil/filters I can find and keep the OCI down of course, no use tempting fate!
 

Wild one

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Until you guys can come up with something that disapproves MMX and Reignited Cycle,i'm sticking with their advise.
So far nobody has found an Engineer or even a Mopar master tech that disagrees with their advice,all we got is a bunch of internet gurus who for the most part have never had the heads off their hemi's,but appear to know everything.
 

ramffml

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Until you guys can come up with something that disapproves MMX and Reignited Cycle,i'm sticking with their advise.
So far nobody has found an Engineer or even a Mopar master tech that disagrees with their advice,all we got is a bunch of internet gurus who for the most part have never had the heads off their hemi's,but appear to know everything.

I rewatched a few Reignited videos when this was posted a while back, he does make the claim that the block itself never changed in the 2009 update, and that the cam/lifters are not lubricated by crank splash.

Not arguing, just throwing that out there lol. I can try to find the video back but like you said there are a lot of different gurus and no real authoritative answer.

I could have also had one too many that night which is equally likely.
 

Wild one

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I rewatched a few Reignited videos when this was posted a while back, he does make the claim that the block itself never changed in the 2009 update, and that the cam/lifters are not lubricated by crank splash.

Not arguing, just throwing that out there lol. I can try to find the video back but like you said there are a lot of different gurus and no real authoritative answer.

I could have also had one too many that night which is equally likely.
If you look the bottom end over close the cam is still lubricated by crank splash,it's not as much as an old small block chebby,but it still gets some splash,especially once the rpms are up. If it had no crank splash,the cam wouldn't last for one trip around the block,as there's no pressurized oil fed to the lobes,so they must be getting some lube off the crank. If there was no oil being flung around inside the block,a catch can would be useless,and we all know a catch can is a benefit on a 5.7
 

gt8684

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Yup, I'm done here, once a couple people ask how they run their motors with MDS disabled for 50k-60k, 200k miles and the answer is

Some guys get lucky,some don't,you were one of the lucky ones,go buy yourself a lottery ticket,lol

Well, there is nothing else to say.
 

NevadaNick

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Some guys get lucky,some don't,you were one of the lucky ones,go buy yourself a lottery ticket,lol
Being a company vehicle it probably got the crap drove out of it,which is one of the best things you can do to a hemi,babying them is a recipe for disaster.
Maybe you can explain why i get 200,000 miles out of a set pads and rotors on my company 1 ton ,seeing as how we're trying to explain things:Big Laugh: :Big Laugh:
When i traded in my 97 F350 at 172,000 mi it had the original brakes
 

Wild one

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Yup, I'm done here, once a couple people ask how they run their motors with MDS disabled for 50k-60k, 200k miles and the answer is



Well, there is nothing else to say.
Not sure what the hell you'd figure the answer is,as he asked a question with no real answer.
Clue us in then to the answer to nicks question,seeing as how you appear to know everything :Big Laugh: :Big Laugh:
Maybe enlighten us to why the identical truck eats the cam at 60,000 miles while you're at it.
I'm curious to know what you think the answer is :Big Laugh:
 

Wild one

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I rewatched a few Reignited videos when this was posted a while back, he does make the claim that the block itself never changed in the 2009 update, and that the cam/lifters are not lubricated by crank splash.

Not arguing, just throwing that out there lol. I can try to find the video back but like you said there are a lot of different gurus and no real authoritative answer.

I could have also had one too many that night which is equally likely.
I've been under the weather for the last couple days,so my patience levels are pretty well nill ,i didn't mean to come across as a bit of ******* Ramffml.
But if there's no cranksplash and no pressurized oil fed to the cam lobes,that means the only lubrication would be from the little bit of oil that leaks past the lifter bore,and with the flat plane the lifters sit in relation to the cam,very little of that oil actually makes it onto the lobe,and that means shutting down the oil flow to the lifter bores by disabling the mds,would mean very little oil makes it to the cam,virtually signing a deathnell for the cam. I'm not a huge fan of Uncle Tony,but he does have a decent video showing how the lifters sit in relation to the cam.

 

ramffml

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I've been under the weather for the last couple days,so my patience levels are pretty well nill ,i didn't mean to come across as a bit of ******* Ramffml.
No worries at all :)

But if there's no cranksplash and no pressurized oil fed to the cam lobes,that means the only lubrication would be from the little bit of oil that leaks past the lifter bore,and with the flat plane the lifters sit in relation to the cam,very little of that oil actually makes it onto the lobe,and that means shutting down the oil flow to the lifter bores by disabling the mds,would mean very little oil makes it to the cam,virtually signing a deathnell for the cam. I'm not a huge fan of Uncle Tony,but he does have a decent video showing how the lifters sit in relation to the cam.


He's not the only one that says splash can't reach the cams, I've read someone else (possibly overkill on bitog who gets his info from another certified FCA mechanic) say that there is a large chunk of block in the way so it's physically impossible for splash to hit the cam due to the angles/placement.

Reignited also says the block didn't change (WRT to the oiling system) at the 2009 redesign, but that's when the lifter issues started. So how can it run fine for a few years before that?

I don't know, I freely admit the oiling system is outside my wheelhouse. I just brought up that comment about Reignited because even he says stuff (cam doesn't get splash) that we all don't agree on so my point there was that no single person, expert or not, seems to have the answer and we're just all stitching together bits and pieces.

My reasoning these days is based more on the logic and anecdotal data;
- If we see lots of high idling trucks with no failure, then it can't be mainly due to idling.
- If we see one lifter/cam lobe failure but the other 15 in the same truck are fine, it can't be poor oiling/lube design because the others lasted perfectly fine under 100% identical conditions
- If we see failures in non MDS hemis then it can't be the MDS system
- If my truck has lasted 60k miles with MDS disabled and UOA's come back great and it idles so smooth and quiet, then can disabling MDS really be a problem? One could argue "no", just as easily as "well, wait and see if if you get failures at 150k miles".

and so on.

So that's why my belief (without proof) comes down to poor cam and/or lifter hardening as the most likely candidate, and I think a premium oil can certainly play a very important role in keeping things cleaned and offering the most protection possible, even if you get the weak cam and/or lifters.
 

ramffml

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As a follow up, I found the video back from Sky where he refutes Uncle Tony and then very clearly states "the block did not change in 2009". A lot of great comments by him in the 5 mins following, and he basically sums up "it's my contention that this failure is due to improper hardening of cams/lifters, this is not a design/oiling flaw".

 

gt8684

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@Wild one , dude you might just need to go back and read my first comments. You keep trying to say I'm some internet guru genius. All of my first comments were literally questions. If I knew the answer I would not have been asking how is this possible? I mean again your original comments were they get low or no oil with MDS disabled. I just asked how that was possibly true. Your answers are just to read another post, and in that post people are giving out super scientific answers, like people who disable MDS are stupid.. or dinosaurs. And when someone else asks you how their motor ran for 200k miles with MDS disabled its just you got lucky... I just questioned how MDS disabled would be causing the cams to fail. I like the video @ramffml just posted above this. The guy, states oil pressure is a problem. at idle. not driving, he also says opposite of what you have been saying about the cam being lubed with oil splash, which I also thought was ridiculous. Watch the video, and I will agree with him, the cams were cheaply made, and they are failing prematurely causing the issues. Not the "low" or "no" oil on the lifters with MDS disabled. Thanks!
 
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