RAM 2500 Cummins Payload Vs. Towing

[dhay13]

No they won't stop you but if you are in an accident with death or serious injury I'd bet you'd wished you were legal

 

[ramffml]

No they won't stop you but if you are in an accident with death or serious injury I'd bet you'd wished you were legal

Exactly. And on top of that, I'd have a hard time living with myself if I knowingly pushed past the ratings of my truck and directly caused serious injury and/or death because of it.

 

[GsRAM]

OP...My position:

Ensure you weigh your rig hitched and unhitched and get real world rear axle weighs. I wont advocate disregarding published weight limits. They are what they are.

I will only say, personaly to me, the GRAWR is the one you absolutely need to stay under.

You have quickly found out the issue with diesel powered 3/4 ton trucks, the extra weight of the diesel makes them payload limited. My 17 6.4 powered 2500 has over 3100 lbs of payload, nearly 1,000lbs more than your trucks payload. Is my truck more capable than yours in terms of weight carrying abilty? On paper only, it is.

In reality yours is just as capable and will move that same weight much easier with that CTD. This is exactly the reason if I ever go CTD in the future, I will only buy a 3500 series truck. Just my .02. Do your own research and make your own decisions. Good luck

 

[spoon059]

Your payload is not actually increased. Even though that may be the only difference, your payload is what the sticker on your door shows from a legal standpoint.

This is incorrect. I'm not going to wade into whether or not it is safe or advisable to exceed your payload sticker rating or use your axle weights, but I do need to correct this.

From a LEGAL standpoint (legal meaning that a police officer could pull you over and ticket or impound you), the sticker means nothing. The sticker is a compromise between the lawyers, the accountants, the engineers and marketing at any manufacturer. Engineers know exactly what the breaking point of any given part is. Marketing wants to have the highest number for commercials. Lawyers want to limit liability. Accountants want to keep costs down.

Most modern 3/4 ton trucks are a Class 2B truck. Class 2B has a maximum GVWR of 10,000 lbs. Class 3 trucks start at 10,001 lbs up to about 14,000 lbs. That is an arbitrary number picked by the government for registration purposes. Some states don't allow a truck over 10,000 lbs to drive in the left lane of highways. Others don't let a truck over 10,000 lbs on parkways. Some jurisdictions don't allow trucks over 10,000 lbs to park in subdivisions. The restrictions keep going.

The Ram 2500 is a class 2B truck from the manufacturer, which means that it is designated as having a maximum GVWR of 10,000 lbs. When you go to register your vehicle at the department of motor vehicles, they see the 10,000 lbs GVWR and charge you the tax/registration fee for that weight and you are perfectly legal to drive at that weight. If, for some reason, you get stopped by the police and they weigh you and you are OVER that weight, you can get a fine for being overweight.

However, it is PERFECTLY LEGAL to pay a higher tax/registration fee and register your vehicle for a higher GVWR. You can go and pay for 12,000 lbs or 14,000 lbs for a 2500 and be PERFECTLY LEGAL driving down the road 2 tons over the sticker weight on your door.

I had a 2010 Tundra that had a 7200 lbs GVWR sticker. In Maryland I could register it for 7000 lbs tags (and legally "lose" 200 lbs of already precious payload) or I could register it for 8000 lbs tags (and legally "gain" 800 lbs of payload). I registered it for 8000 lbs just in case I ever got stopped. The sticker means nothing from a legality standpoint. Now, Toyota could theoritically try to refuse to honor some parts of the warranty if they suspected that I was overloading the truck, but that was never an issue for me.

Again, I am not telling anyone to ignore their weight ratings, I am just pointing out the a sticker is not the "LEGAL" factor. Registration and federal bridge weight limits are the defining numbers.

 

[ramffml]

This is incorrect. I'm not going to wade into whether or not it is safe or advisable to exceed your payload sticker rating or use your axle weights, but I do need to correct this.

From a LEGAL standpoint (legal meaning that a police officer could pull you over and ticket or impound you), the sticker means nothing. The sticker is a compromise between the lawyers, the accountants, the engineers and marketing at any manufacturer. Engineers know exactly what the breaking point of any given part is. Marketing wants to have the highest number for commercials. Lawyers want to limit liability. Accountants want to keep costs down.

Most modern 3/4 ton trucks are a Class 2B truck. Class 2B has a maximum GVWR of 10,000 lbs. Class 3 trucks start at 10,001 lbs up to about 14,000 lbs. That is an arbitrary number picked by the government for registration purposes. Some states don't allow a truck over 10,000 lbs to drive in the left lane of highways. Others don't let a truck over 10,000 lbs on parkways. Some jurisdictions don't allow trucks over 10,000 lbs to park in subdivisions. The restrictions keep going.

The Ram 2500 is a class 2B truck from the manufacturer, which means that it is designated as having a maximum GVWR of 10,000 lbs. When you go to register your vehicle at the department of motor vehicles, they see the 10,000 lbs GVWR and charge you the tax/registration fee for that weight and you are perfectly legal to drive at that weight. If, for some reason, you get stopped by the police and they weigh you and you are OVER that weight, you can get a fine for being overweight.

However, it is PERFECTLY LEGAL to pay a higher tax/registration fee and register your vehicle for a higher GVWR. You can go and pay for 12,000 lbs or 14,000 lbs for a 2500 and be PERFECTLY LEGAL driving down the road 2 tons over the sticker weight on your door.

I had a 2010 Tundra that had a 7200 lbs GVWR sticker. In Maryland I could register it for 7000 lbs tags (and legally "lose" 200 lbs of already precious payload) or I could register it for 8000 lbs tags (and legally "gain" 800 lbs of payload). I registered it for 8000 lbs just in case I ever got stopped. The sticker means nothing from a legality standpoint. Now, Toyota could theoritically try to refuse to honor some parts of the warranty if they suspected that I was overloading the truck, but that was never an issue for me.

Again, I am not telling anyone to ignore their weight ratings, I am just pointing out the a sticker is not the "LEGAL" factor. Registration and federal bridge weight limits are the defining numbers.

Considering you can sue McDonalds for having coffee that is too hot, if you think you can kill somebody in an accident while running over the specs of your truck... again, first there is the conscience thing, and second, the right jury will give you jail time. If you register your truck at a higher limit and you cross all your T's that's one thing, nobody here does that and nobody here is talking about that. We're talking about guys hooking up a trailer to their truck and just running down the road over loaded. Many people do this.

So yes, the sticker is king; unless you reregister but then you get a new sticker (so to speak). The point is, don't run past the specs on your truck that you are currently registered for, and for 99.9% of people that is the door sticker.

But also remember: "the breaking point of any given part" is not the same for every copy of that part. It's a scale, some break sooner, some break later because manufacturing is not flawless. So going past the spec and thinking "they leave some wiggle room", while true, you could be at the beginning of the bell curve and that will ruin your day.

 

[mtofell]

and second, the right jury will give you jail time. If you register your truck at a higher limit and you cross all your T's that's one thing,

I can't envision too many juries handing out jail time for a clerical issue (failure to register the proper weight).

 

[ramffml]

I can't envision too many juries handing out jail time for a clerical issue (failure to register the proper weight).

I wasn't referring to clerical issue. What I mean is, you buy a truck, run it "as is" and overload it with too heavy of a trailer according to your sticker, and get into an accident with loss of life. If the right lawyer gets involved, you're basically cooked. I'm too lazy to look for lawsuits like this and I wouldn't no where to begin, but I have to imagine its already been done before based on the results of other suits (mcdonalds coffee etc).

 

[spoon059]

Considering you can sue McDonalds for having coffee that is too hot, if you think you can kill somebody in an accident while running over the specs of your truck... again, first there is the conscience thing, and second, the right jury will give you jail time. If you register your truck at a higher limit and you cross all your T's that's one thing, nobody here does that and nobody here is talking about that. We're talking about guys hooking up a trailer to their truck and just running down the road over loaded. Many people do this.

So yes, the sticker is king; unless you reregister but then you get a new sticker (so to speak). The point is, don't run past the specs on your truck that you are currently registered for, and for 99.9% of people that is the door sticker.

But also remember: "the breaking point of any given part" is not the same for every copy of that part. It's a scale, some break sooner, some break later because manufacturing is not flawless. So going past the spec and thinking "they leave some wiggle room", while true, you could be at the beginning of the bell curve and that will ruin your day.

I was responding to the post about it not being LEGAL. Your comments are more along the lines of a civil issue. In order for someone to go to JAIL for a collision, they would have to prove that your actions were reckless and wanton indifference towards human life. Going over a superficial sticker rating, but under your axle ratings is nowhere near that standard. It is far easier to argue that you were over speed, inattentive or failed to perform basic maintenance like brake pads or tire wear than it is to argue that you were over the sticker but under the manufacturer axle ratings.

Just as an example, Ram rates my 2500 rear axle at 6500 lbs. That means that the axle, the brakes, the suspension, the wheels, the tires, the hardware, the frame, etc are rated to carry 6500 lbs. But for no reason other than to maintain a Class 2B rating, the vehicle is class limited to 10,000 lbs to allow the vehicle to be registered at or below that arbitrary weight limit. Same engine, brakes, wheels/tires (assuming 18" wheels with my Ram), etc are on the 3500 with a higher sticker. Is it a magic sticker that allows it to carry more weight?

But again... I'm not advocating that anyone assume that risk. I am just responding to the fallacy that a sticker on your door is somehow an enforceable limit by police. It isn't. Anything can open you up for civil liability. If you are going to argue about the ease with which someone can sue you (a la McDonalds hot coffee), then you should never exceed the speed limit, you should maintain minimal following distances, you should be documenting quarterly safety inspections of all systems, allow yourself zero distractions inside the cab, etc. In other words, everything you do opens you up for risk. Never assume more risk than you are willing to take. For some that means never towing, for others that means exceeding arbitrary stickers.

Your results may vary, this is not legal advice, I encourage everyone to stay under their comfort levels when towing.

 

[ramffml]

It is far easier to argue that you were over speed, inattentive or failed to perform basic maintenance like brake pads or tire wear

Oh those can be used against you as well.

 

[GTyankee]

The 10,000 pound classification, actually has nothing to with a vehicles capacity

10,000 pounds is a DMV rating, it is the maximum rating for Class C licenses
10,001 is the point the DMV says that you must have a Class B license

Law enforcement does not normally stop a private vehicle with a trailer, unless it is weaving or it appears to have another issue

 

[392DevilDog]

The 10,000 pound classification, actually has nothing to with a vehicles capacity

10,000 pounds is a DMV rating, it is the maximum rating for Class C licenses
10,001 is the point the DMV says that you must have a Class B license

Law enforcement does not normally stop a private vehicle with a trailer, unless it is weaving or it appears to have another issue

View attachment 490902

View attachment 490903

In Pennsylvania a class C license is good to 26000 lbs GVWR. Class B (CDL) is for over 26001...but that is more because of the air brakes required.

 

[GTyankee]

a Vehicle will always pull more than it can support vertically

one way you have a engine, transmission, & rear differential that are all connected by a frame, great for pulling

For supporting a weight, you have a platform supported by springs & tires, both the springs & tires are not really stable, especially since they began using coil springs
Leaf Springs hardly have any horizontal movement, where as coil springs need additional support from Shock Absorbers, sway bars, etc.

It is sort of like a rope, it will pull a lot horizontally
It will not lift even half as much vertically

 

[GTyankee]

I completely forgot about air brakes

I should know better, i have had a Class A License since 1974

 

[dhay13]

I find it hard to believe the number of users on here telling newbies that it's ok to ignore maximum ratings. Anytime you exceed maximums you are opening yourself up to litigation. I personally know of a case where a semi driver was doing 5 MPH over and t-***** a car. No the police would not have pulled him over for being 5 over but the driver lost a huge lawsuit worth millions. Other than the 5 over the semi was legal

 

[Gr8bawana]

I find it hard to believe the number of users on here telling newbies that it's ok to ignore maximum ratings. Anytime you exceed maximums you are opening yourself up to litigation. I personally know of a case where a semi driver was doing 5 MPH over and t-***** a car. No the police would not have pulled him over for being 5 over but the driver lost a huge lawsuit worth millions. Other than the 5 over the semi was legal

This semi going 5mph over the speed limit has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with a pickup possibly being over the GVWR.
I asked you on a prior occasion to post any records of someone being stopped, inspected, weighed and then ticketed for being over their GVWR.
You don't have any because it rarely if ever happens to recreational RV'ers.

 

[GTyankee]

I have watched California Highway Patrol lead a pickup truck & trailer into the Truck Scales to be weighed & inspected.
I don't know if the driver got a ticket for being over weight, but the driver sure got a ticket for the trailer tires.
The driver looked confused, but the CHP was pointing things out & writing.
I did not hang around to see if he had to unhook from the trailer. The semi truck that i was ESC0RTing had returned from showing the Officers his paperwork.

 

[dhay13]

This semi going 5mph over the speed limit has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with a pickup possibly being over the GVWR.
I asked you on a prior occasion to post any records of someone being stopped, inspected, weighed and then ticketed for being over their GVWR.
You don't have any because it rarely if ever happens to recreational RV'ers.

I have said in several posts that police are highly unlikely to stop you for these 'infractions'. Most wouldn't know the difference and I say that as having been one in the past. But my point is more the liability in the event of an accident. If there is serious enough injury you can bet insurance will do whatever they can to get out of it and the other party will do whatever they can to make it look like you caused it. And if they hire an 'expert' that tells the jury that you were over the maximum towing capacity there is a 50/50 chance the jury will buy that and you are screwed. To me it isn't worth it. I have been involved in too many similar cases that I know anything can happen when it comes to juries

 

[Gr8bawana]

I have said in several posts that police are highly unlikely to stop you for these 'infractions'. Most wouldn't know the difference and I say that as having been one in the past. But my point is more the liability in the event of an accident. If there is serious enough injury you can bet insurance will do whatever they can to get out of it and the other party will do whatever they can to make it look like you caused it. And if they hire an 'expert' that tells the jury that you were over the maximum towing capacity there is a 50/50 chance the jury will buy that and you are screwed. To me it isn't worth it. I have been involved in too many similar cases that I know anything can happen when it comes to juries

No one is telling people to intentionally overload their pickup by thousands of pounds. But if they happen to be over by a little bit I don't think they have anything to worry about.
Please post some documentation of these litigation cases you have been involved in pertaining to an RVer being held liable for being a bit over their GVWR.
I tire of you saying it might happen or it could happen. I want to know when and where it has happened.

 

[dhay13]

I want to know when and where it has happened.

Then you search for it. I have searched in the past and found a couple of cases. The cases I was involved in weren't GVWR related but the fact still remains people exceeded limitations of some sort and the jury made them pay. And yes, a few hundred pounds might be ok but where do you draw the line? At some point a jury will say 'you screwed up'

 

[Gr8bawana]

Then you search for it. I have searched in the past and found a couple of cases. The cases I was involved in weren't GVWR related but the fact still remains people exceeded limitations of some sort and the jury made them pay. And yes, a few hundred pounds might be ok but where do you draw the line? At some point a jury will say 'you screwed up'

I'm not the one making these false claims, you are. If you don't have proof then it must be pure conjecture on your part.