Shuddering, engine or transmission???

[eric_sfo]

2009 Dodge 1500 5.7 157,000 miles. Posted similar but no replies so deleting it, rewording and putting in a different category for hope of a response.

So for the longest time I’ve been thinking I have the torque converter shudder. Never confirmed but after research and consulting a trany shop that what was suspected as the culprit.

No I’m throwing P300 and P305 codes that are intermittent. So I research this and it also comes up with shuddering symptoms from misfiring etc, with culprit being anything from bad lifters, cam, valve springs, injectors, coil pack and plugs. I flip flopped coil packs and plugged and pretty confident thats not the issue.

Well I was going to attach video but only can attach pictures. I’m was hoping it was good enough sound for someone to hear the shuddering over some of the stuff rattling in my cab. If someone knows how to do that let me know.

Well generally happens low RPM less the 1300-1800, and at low speeds usually 35-45 mph. Although it has happened at slightly higher speeds. It goes away soon as I let off the gas or press it down. It also doesn’t happen 100% the tome I drive bit pretty close.

Thanks

 

[Hemi395]

P0300 and P0305 are engine misfire codes, so you need to start there. Failed lifters and wiped cam lobes usually will pop a PO30(X) code with a flashing check engine light under hard acceleration but will be normal under lower loads. Do you have any ticking sounds at a warm idle?

If you've swapped coils with no change Id be looking at the spark plugs and then fuel related componants...

 

[eric_sfo]

Thanks. Yes I have a tick. It been there for a while and yes generally at idle till its warmed up. When I swapped the coils I got same code 305 but then also 300 code. Then I checked the plugs and they looked good. I brushed them and checked gaps. I also swapped plugs from cylinder 1 with 5. I reset the code again and now it hasn't come back. That in itself isn't uncommom I have only gotten the code to pop whenever I let it sit idle to warm up on a cold day and it’s been warmer last couple days.

I'll see if it pops tomorrow warming up and if not try with some hard acceleration.

So shuddering could be engine idle issue you think? Or am I just lucky enough to have a tranny issue as well as engine one?

Thanks

 

[Burla]

You might have two things going on tranny shudder and sadly the second a wiped cam. Drive in tow hual and let me know if low rpm shudder goes away. However, the misfire codes are more troubling and most often fatal. You can do what hemi395 says and see if the code travels as in a new number on the misfire, if so you are in good shape, if the code doesnt travel 90% of the time it will be time for e cam/lifters. The low rpm transmission shudder can often be an easy fix, but I would address the misfires first. No reason to spend a dime on it if you cant get rid of misfire. The p0300 is just the general misfire code, it most often means the 5 cylinder is misfiring since you also got the specific.

btw, is tranny fluid red and full?

 

[eric_sfo]

So yes shudder presents itself both in tow/haul as well as just manual shift mode. Seems to happen less often in those modes due to higher rpm range it runs in at lower speeds.

True on the tranny possible issue. Not super critical especially seeing how I've had that for couple years or so now. but does seem to have gotten worse last year. The tranny guy even said if its drivable it can wait before dealing with it.

Thing is even when the code popped there was no noticeable typical misfire symptoms.

Next up is likely a compression and a leak down test.

Tranny fluid has been replaced twice in the last year or so hoping to fix it. Along with the filters and solenoid valve. It was red, not as red as new. I have a drain plug on it now maybe time to check it again.

Thanks

 

[Burla]

Mis fire codes usually happen before symptoms, but the symptoms are coming if it is the cam. If you will fix cam, try servicing transmission and filter change and put back 8 quarts redline c+, that has permanently fixed my low rom shudder, I had drove in tow haul for many years til I did that fluid change, to my surprise I havent needed tow haul since, that low rpm shudder isnt terribly important like your guy correctly said, keep that guy btw. If you will fix cam, when you do the fluid service on tranny also consider a new VB get rid of any cross leaks it surely has at this point. Fix misfire first then do some upgrades if you plan on keeping it. I would rather have a 2009 then a new one, but the only bad part is only having 5 gears and especially paired with a 3.55. There is just too much rpm range, guys with 6 speeds and 3,92's dont seam to get that low rpm shudder. small point but get a metal thread upgrade for your transmision filter, those plastic ones can break and depending how bad can be fatal as well.

 

[eric_sfo]

So let it warm up in the garage for 10 minutes. 42F outside and no code. Did some hard acceleration on the way in and no codes. Can’t imagine cleaning couple plugs, that weren't that dirty, and re-gapping them would make a difference. Temps drop back to the 20s tomorrow so I’ll try again. Jury is out on that one still.

As far as tranny. Ordered some instant shudder fixx just to see. Can’t hurt I guess. If the shutter goes away or not not sure what that tells me really. If shutter goes away I would guess its not the engine causing at least. Mine was factory 3.92 gear upgrade so not issue there. I replaced the solenoid last time I replaced fluid and filters maybe should have just replaced the VB at the same time.

Thanks for the reply. Definitely gonna focus on the misfire first, if I can just get the code to pop. Probably do a compression test, then leak down, pull and clean injectors. Depending on what is found out maybe then pull intake manifold to check the oil control valve for metal. If that has metal is my engine done? I have read for a 6.4 engine that means engine replacement but for 5.7 you are ok to replace cam and lifters. What are your thoughts?

Thanks
Eric

 

[Burla]

oil control valve is how the dealer decides to fix or new engine, so I would probably go with that. With the way things are today and prices all over the place, I'd probably price out all my options assuming OCV is clean, then decide. If there is metal there no decision, time for a new/reman engine.

 

[eric_sfo]

That is what I’ve been most afraid a new/reman engine and then possibly new/reman tranny. With todays car prices proably still cheaper to replace especially if I can manage go do a bulk of the work.

Thanks I’ll post with any updates or new info.

Thanks

 

[eric_sfo]

Well WTF is all I can say. 3 days later and the code has not come back. So I’m just at a loss now. I just can’t believe these spark plugs would cause it. All I did was clean it up and switch plugs cylinders 5 with 1. I’m not a spark plug expert but these don’t look bad to me. Guess I shouldn't complain if it was a spark plug issue.

 

[Burla]

Those arent oem, so are those replacements ngk's? Which is what you use for a 2010. The 2010 coil packs need ngk's.

 

[TheEnder]

Mis fire codes usually happen before symptoms, but the symptoms are coming if it is the cam. If you will fix cam, try servicing transmission and filter change and put back 8 quarts redline c+, that has permanently fixed my low rom shudder, I had drove in tow haul for many years til I did that fluid change, to my surprise I havent needed tow haul since, that low rpm shudder isnt terribly important like your guy correctly said, keep that guy btw. If you will fix cam, when you do the fluid service on tranny also consider a new VB get rid of any cross leaks it surely has at this point. Fix misfire first then do some upgrades if you plan on keeping it. I would rather have a 2009 then a new one, but the only bad part is only having 5 gears and especially paired with a 3.55. There is just too much rpm range, guys with 6 speeds and 3,92's dont seam to get that low rpm shudder. small point but get a metal thread upgrade for your transmision filter, those plastic ones can break and depending how bad can be fatal as well.

Speaking on transmission filters for the RFE there’s a new suncoast main sump filter adapter for the 68RFE (will work on 65) that lets you use a torqueflite filter for higher flow etc. Also helps majorly with cavitation as it is deeper in the pan, downside is that it’s around 160$ and you will need a much deeper pan.

 

[Dusty]

So yes shudder presents itself both in tow/haul as well as just manual shift mode. Seems to happen less often in those modes due to higher rpm range it runs in at lower speeds.

True on the tranny possible issue. Not super critical especially seeing how I've had that for couple years or so now. but does seem to have gotten worse last year. The tranny guy even said if its drivable it can wait before dealing with it.

Thing is even when the code popped there was no noticeable typical misfire symptoms.

Next up is likely a compression and a leak down test.

Tranny fluid has been replaced twice in the last year or so hoping to fix it. Along with the filters and solenoid valve. It was red, not as red as new. I have a drain plug on it now maybe time to check it again.

Thanks

(delete)

 

[18CrewDually]

You could of had carbon tracking down the insulator causing the misfire. Between the plug socket and not knowing what to look for you could of cleaned it off without knowing. The last vehicle I had this on was a Subaru. I found it and swapped in a spare plug I had just to get back on the road. Week later it came back misfiring again. Pulled it apart, same exact carbon tracking.
Ended up being a bad boot.

 

[eric_sfo]

Those arent oem, so are those replacements ngk's? Which is what you use for a 2010. The 2010 coil packs need ngk's.

Missed this reply before. Yes they are ngk’s. Came in mopar box and all

 

[eric_sfo]

You could of had carbon tracking down the insulator causing the misfire. Between the plug socket and not knowing what to look for you could of cleaned it off without knowing. The last vehicle I had this on was a Subaru. I found it and swapped in a spare plug I had just to get back on the road. Week later it came back misfiring again. Pulled it apart, same exact carbon tracking.
Ended up being a bad boot.

So you may be on to something here. Last week or so the code has been intermittent and would self correct.

I went ahead and paid a shop to do compression check and leak down test. Could have rented tools and done myself but seeing how I’ve never done it I wanted to be certain it was done right I guess. So everything was within specs. Then they bore scoped down into the valves and it did have quite a bit carbon build up and appeared to be some pitting on the valves and valve seats. Said if not seating right that could be causing the misfire and if not extremely bad maybe thats why it is intermittent.

So thats where I’m at, possible valve job, to a estimate of $1350 and that is before the machine shop gets ahold of them. For the money I would save in labor I think I could just get brand new heads with new valves etc and just do it myself and not even use a machine shop.

Either way a lot of money to possible not even solve the problem. Plus it’s a potential rabbit hole of replacing parts. I mean while in there why wouldn’t I consider all the other things that have been known issues like rollers, cam etc. Then I would still have this shuddering problem which seems to be tranny from what everyone here is suggesting.

Then how far do I go before replacing it with a long block engine a better bet and get some upgrades along the way. Sure it’ll cost more but then everything is new and still be for less than a new truck.

Not sure what I’m asking but any input would be good.

Thanks

 

[Wild one]

Missed this reply before. Yes they are ngk’s. Came in mopar box and all

From where,there's lot of Chinese knock off plugs floating around these days,and NGK's are one of the ones being knocked off,if you got the plugs off e-pay,and they were cheaper then anywhere else,there's a good chance they're knock offs.The boxes look the same,and the plugs look very similiar to the originals,but they preform like a Chinese knock-off "poorly"
Your plugs are getting due though,as they've started to loose the sharp edges on the electrode and ground strap.The spark jumps from sharp corners better then round corners.I'd think seriously of replacing them if you have them out

 

[eric_sfo]

From where,there's lot of Chinese knock off plugs floating around these days,and NGK's are one of the ones being knocked off,if you got the plugs off e-pay,and they were cheaper then anywhere else,there's a good chance they're knock offs.The boxes look the same,and the plugs look very similiar to the originals,but they preform like a Chinese knock-off "poorly"
Your plugs are getting due though,as they've started to loose the sharp edges on the electrode and ground strap.The spark jumps from sharp corners better then round corners.I'd think seriously of replacing them if you have them out

The plugs have roughly 18k on them I usually change at 30k but if they need change they need it. Last 2 sets were from amazon. Nothing to indicate it wws knock offs of course and roughly 6 a plug. Mopar site has them for 7. Given its been about 2 years I’d say they were priced right. Maybe next ones come directly from mopar.

I bought gaskets and all needed to pull the intake manifold so may pull that to do a good cleaning of everything I can and replace the plugs in the process. Hard to tell but looks like I may have a leaking valve cover or kind looks like it could be leaking down from the manifold. Guess when I pull it I’ll get better idea.
Thanks

 

[mtofell]

Not sure if this data point helps or not but I'll throw it out there: I started getting a misfire flashing CEL under hard acceleration. I also heard what sounded like fuel-related engine knock but it turns out it was a bearing deep in the engine failing. Needed a new 6.4 long block. What you describe might be good news in that you didn't/aren't getting the code under hard acceleration and plugs seem to have fixed it. Fingers crossed for you.... fwiw, thankfully, my engine was under warranty.

 

[eric_sfo]

Not sure if this data point helps or not but I'll throw it out there: I started getting a misfire flashing CEL under hard acceleration. I also heard what sounded like fuel-related engine knock but it turns out it was a bearing deep in the engine failing. Needed a new 6.4 long block. What you describe might be good news in that you didn't/aren't getting the code under hard acceleration and plugs seem to have fixed it. Fingers crossed for you.... fwiw, thankfully, my engine was under warranty.

Well I didn’t mention it cause it has only happened once. So I did het the code last year doing hard acceleration on relatively cold engine. Nothing since and the code did come back finally. But funny enough it went away on its own just yesterday.