Synthetic Oil

[Rod Knock]

There has been a lot of discussion over the years about PUP SRT 0W-40, and why it contains 250ppm of Moly. Well, considering that Moly can be formulated in motor oil as a multifunctional additive (friction reducer, antioxidant, and EP additive), and that, according to VOAs/UOAs that I've seen, the rest of PUP 0W-40 looks like the other oils in the PUP lineup, my speculation is that SOPUS formulated PUP 0W-40 as a fuel-efficient 40W oil masquerading as a high-performance oil. Mobil 1 did the same thing for GM with their M1 ESP 0W-40 specifically formulated for the Corvette. I mean, why even bother otherwise, since SOPUS already has Shell Helix Ultra SP 0W-40 that's sold as Pennzoil Platinum Euro 0W-40, and it's even API SP now. Stelantis/FCA/Chrysler wanted to get those fuel economy numbers as high as possible on those Monroney window stickers plastered on Chargers and Challengers. A small hint also comes from Castrol recommending EDGE 0W-40 for the 6.4L HEMIs in trucks, but not in cars. Of course, EDGE 0W-40 that you can buy at Walmart is a modern full-SAPS formulation that's actually nearly mid-SAPS, and because it's derived from Castrol's Dexos 2 0W-40 mid-SAPS oil, it's much more complex and expensive to make than something like Mobil 1 0W-40.

As to Red Line: I decide to stick with it and see how it goes. I'm sure I won't regret it. I also have 3 more oil changes worth of the stuff. It also has a certain cool factor to it, and now that I learned how to drain and fill the ZF8 speed, I kinda regret not going with the D6 instead of AMSOIL.

Friction modifiers: Esters actually make better friction modifiers than Moly, so I doubt that the Moly in Red Line is used as a friction reducer or as an antioxidant. I believe it's there strictly as an EP additive, just like @Burla said a long time ago. I love to speculate, lol.

And now, something funny to watch for you guys. I laughed really hard at these two videos. This guy goes from full-on placebo to disbelief in a matter of days, lol:

Wow, Red Line 5W-30 is so great, makes my HEMI so smooth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUmV5Ly-UgY&t=386s

Them a few days later he dumps it and praises Pennzoil, lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCqsDobPiaY&t=167s

That's just hilarious.

@Hemi395 - Did you have piston slap before you started using Red Line, or did it manifest itself after you started using it? How cold does it have to be outside for it to manifest with Red Line 5W-30?

 

[Burla]

It is getting to be a bad joke how many guys who say look my engine is great this place is crazy with this cam/lifter talk. You would have to have your head in the sand to ignore what is going on with this on ram forum. literally, pull your head out, whoever even thinks of saying those words. Yet with Corey''s video another person who worked at fca that tells you it is so bad he thinks nearly everyone will have a cam fail.

 

[Travis8352]

It is getting to be a bad joke how many guys who say look my engine is great this place is crazy with this cam/lifter talk. You would have to have your head in the sand to ignore what is going on with this on ram forum. literally, pull your head out, whoever even thinks of saying those words. Yet with Corey''s video another person who worked at fca that tells you it is so bad he thinks nearly everyone will have a cam fail.

You should see the facebook groups lol. 99/100 people say these engines are fine just run what the manufacturer wants you to do and it will last. Strangely they almost always say run pp 5w20 and a mopar filter. Ive even seen people say the only ones with lifter failure are those running 5w30 lol

 

[Burla]

It is great the large % of hemi's are bullet proof and lasting longer then most gas engines, but that has nothing to do with how many fail in comparison. Even if 90% are perfect but 10% need cam/lifters, that is a horrible % as a group.

 

[Rod Knock]

You should see the facebook groups lol. 99/100 people say these engines are fine just run what the manufacturer wants you to do and it will last. Strangely they almost always say run pp 5w20 and a mopar filter. Ive even seen people say the only ones with lifter failure are those running 5w30 lol

When your Hemi with an oil temperature of 240F+ in the summer while towing, your 5W-20 MOFT is toast. It wouldn't make a difference with 5W-30 ILSAC oils, either. After looking at what oils quiet the HEMI, it seems that the higher the HTFS (at least over 2.0), the quieter the engine, to a point of course. On the flip side, in Winter my oil temp never goes over 185F, and in summer it's around 190~195F. Even when towing, it's well in check at around 210F. I got a 180F t-stat and no more grille shutters.

Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 is actually Shell Helix Ultra SP 5W-20, they are one and the same oil. It's actually better than the Ultra and undergoes more testing. I can't map Quaker State or Pennzoil Ultra Platinum to their respective Shell counterparts. I'm sure that at least QS oils are also sold in Australia under one of their Shell sub-brands, while PUP is a US-only product that primarily targets good fuel economy. I know that QS Euro 5W-40 is Shell Helix Ultra SP 5W-40, the same as PP Euro. The Pennzoil Platinum line is actually superior to Ultra because it undergoes way more testing and provides oils with higher HTHS. It's actually their top-tier product, kind of like Mobil 1 has EP. Weirdly enough, due to marketing, the Ultra line is sold as their "top-tier" product, but it's not. I'd argue that PP beats Mobil 1 ILSAC oils any day of the week, while Castrol EDGE EP 0W-20, 5W-20, and 5W-30 beats them both because it carries MB 271.9 approvals, and claims ACEA C2 and C3.

Check out this lifter failure (go about 10 minutes into the video if you don't want to watch their entire thing):

Customer States Engine Shaking and knocking. GM AFM Total destruction? Let's take a look. Part 1

www.youtube.com

 

[Rod Knock]

It is great the large % of hemi's are bullet proof and lasting longer then most gas engines, but that has nothing to do with how many fail in comparison. Even if 90% are perfect but 10% need cam/lifters, that is a horrible % as a group.

You should see how many Hyundai Theta II engines failed due to fuel dilution and soot buildup that ate the bearings and piston skirt coatings to the point that these engines grenade themselves. That's the reason why I run Euro oils in our Hyundais and change the oil very often. The HEMI lifter failures pale in comparison to this issue. Hyundai never admitted to what's wrong with their engines. Skinny bearings + soot + fuel dilution = disaster. They claimed that a small number of them (around 100K) had manufacturing defects, and never owned up to it until a class-action suit happened. The reason why we didn't have one for HEMIs is that the failures aren't as many as people like to make them out to be. After I fixed my exhaust leak I am confident that my HEMI will last me for a long time, because I love my truck.

 

[ramffml]

It is great the large % of hemi's are bullet proof and lasting longer then most gas engines, but that has nothing to do with how many fail in comparison. Even if 90% are perfect but 10% need cam/lifters, that is a horrible % as a group.

Total speculation on my part, but it can't be anywhere near 10% IMHO. I agree that this forum/thread is the best defense, I'm running RL 5w-30 just as insurance... I don't even have a tick.

But considering Ram sells 500K trucks per year; the vast majority are hemis. Now add up all the hemi sales in charger, challenger, durango, jeep, and 2500/6.4... there must be close to 750K hemis sold per year.

In otherwords, there are millions of these hemis on the road right now. If it was 10% (which I agree would be truly horrible) we'd have 50+ new forum members every day, it would be a literal flood.

I have to think the number of tick failures is < 1%. There are just too many on the road, and too little reports on the forums.

No doubt the number of tick failures is far higher than in the Ford or pick another manufacturer; so I'm not denying there is a problem, I'm just speculating that the actual percentage is less than 1%. Still a big problem.

 

[Travis8352]

It is great the large % of hemi's are bullet proof and lasting longer then most gas engines, but that has nothing to do with how many fail in comparison. Even if 90% are perfect but 10% need cam/lifters, that is a horrible % as a group.

The fact that its still happening to trucks newer than 2019 is whats most troubling to me. They have updated lifters numerous times yet the issue still persists

 

[Burla]

If you listen to the actual people who left fca and people who independently work on Mopar, combined with the fact the constant out of stock on lifters, plus some vendors here refusing to even sell lifters, I wouldn't be surprised if it was over 10%. If you were in the lifter selling business, wouldn't you go out of your way to meet the demand? A decade into this and still outages that have nothing to do with virus outages. If you follow the tea leaves, on people with feelings don't believe what is going on. It is neither here nor there, really is irrelevant the %, but when it happens to you or me we will have to figure out how to navigate getting it fixed, and hopefully after we drop 6 grand like a dude here last month, it stops ticking unlike the dude here last month, because sad news for him, he is out 6 g's and his truck still ticks. So that is really bad news, as bad as it is to have this happen, how bad is it that you often can't fix it?

The shear amount of people who put in new filters at ram forum only to have it still tick, should let you all know it isn't the cam or the lifters, but something else. I'm sure fca has a whole bunch of those, if they were a decent company they should have torn on those down and refuse to button it up til they found the cause, because that engine would be gold to the knowledge base of what is happening here.

 

[Travis8352]

If you listen to the actual people who left fca and people who independently work on Mopar, combined with the fact the constant out of stock on lifters, plus some vendors here refusing to even sell lifters, I wouldn't be surprised if it was over 10%. If you were in the lifter selling business, wouldn't you go out of your way to meet the demand? A decade into this and still outages that have nothing to do with virus outages. If you follow the tea leaves, on people with feelings don't believe what is going on. It is neither here nor there, really is irrelevant the %, but when it happens to you or me we will have to figure out how to navigate getting it fixed, and hopefully after we drop 6 grand like a dude here last month, it stops ticking unlike the dude here last month, because sad news for him, he is out 6 g's and his truck still ticks. So that is really bad news, as bad as it is to have this happen, how bad is it that you often can't fix it?

The shear amount of people who put in new filters at ram forum only to have it still tick, should let you all know it isn't the cam or the lifters, but something else. I'm sure fca has a whole bunch of those, if they were a decent company they should have torn on those down and refuse to button it up til they found the cause, because that engine would be gold to the knowledge base of what is happening here.

My coworker spent 6800 on new lifters and cam for his 2010 gmc sierra 5.3 and when he pulled into work the day he got it back was tick tick tick. He said the service manager said ill start any truck on the lot for you they all tick

 

[Burla]

If rams had hemi tick on the lot, they wouldnt sell in the first place. I can safely say I would not buy a truck with hemi tick even if I knew the risk of hemi tick. If I knew there was a risk, I can make the decision, I still might make the same choice. But, it is literally engine knock, sorry they wouldnt sell.

 

[Rod Knock]

My coworker spent 6800 on new lifters and cam for his 2010 gmc sierra 5.3 and when he pulled into work the day he got it back was tick tick tick. He said the service manager said ill start any truck on the lot for you they all tick

You should recommend that try Red Line or one of the 0W-40 Euro oils. It's sad that in 2021 people have to contend with valvetrain issues. For $6800 you should be able to buy a new engine, even in this overpriced market, and have two of your friends help you put it in.

 

[ramffml]

If you listen to the actual people who left fca and people who independently work on Mopar, combined with the fact the constant out of stock on lifters, plus some vendors here refusing to even sell lifters, I wouldn't be surprised if it was over 10%. If you were in the lifter selling business, wouldn't you go out of your way to meet the demand? A decade into this and still outages that have nothing to do with virus outages. If you follow the tea leaves, on people with feelings don't believe what is going on. It is neither here nor there, really is irrelevant the %, but when it happens to you or me we will have to figure out how to navigate getting it fixed, and hopefully after we drop 6 grand like a dude here last month, it stops ticking unlike the dude here last month, because sad news for him, he is out 6 g's and his truck still ticks. So that is really bad news, as bad as it is to have this happen, how bad is it that you often can't fix it?

The shear amount of people who put in new filters at ram forum only to have it still tick, should let you all know it isn't the cam or the lifters, but something else. I'm sure fca has a whole bunch of those, if they were a decent company they should have torn on those down and refuse to button it up til they found the cause, because that engine would be gold to the knowledge base of what is happening here.

Well we're going to have to disagree on the numbers. Conservatively how many hemis do you figure are in use right now? 5 to 7 million? So at 10% that means 500,000 to 700,000 are going to see engine failure? I think even 50,000 is mind boggling, many of these will fail under warranty and I don't know how FCA could afford to fix that amount of engines, considering each repair has a bill of several thousand.

I'm referring to actual engine failure though, not the tick in and of itself. Many more hemis will tick on cold startup (for example), but I'm not referring to those, just the amount of failures that show up in either engine lights, or actual lifter/cam failure requiring replacement. That amount has got to be < 1% IMHO.

Of the guys on this forum who did lifters/cams and then had a second failure; did they replace the lifter(s) and the cam? Or just the one? If they're not replacing both the cam and the lifter then I wouldn't count that engine twice.

I do remember reading the last failure you're referring to, I'll see if I can find it back.

 

[Travis8352]

You should recommend that try Red Line or one of the 0W-40 Euro oils. It's sad that in 2021 people have to contend with valvetrain issues. For $6800 you should be able to buy a new engine, even in this overpriced market, and have two of your friends help you put it in.

I tried but hes convinced once you start on one oil you cant change it. He runs dealer bulk 5w30

 

[Burla]

​

Ramffml the real question is how many of them if they ran redline 5w30 and a royal purple filter would even know about cam or lifter replacement?

 

[Rod Knock]

I tried but hes convinced once you start on one oil you cant change it. He runs dealer bulk 5w30

So it's either bottom of the barrel / low rent Shell or Valvoline. I think it's an excelent choice after spending $6800.

 

[Hemi395]

@Hemi395 - Did you have piston slap before you started using Red Line, or did it manifest itself after you started using it? How cold does it have to be outside for it to manifest with Red Line 5W-30?

I actually noticed it before I started using RL, it was pretty early on. I brought it to the dealer who said it was normal which seems to be their mantra. Not satisfied with that I took it to my mechanic who listened with a stethoscope and said it wasn't anything sinister. He explained the short piston skirts and why they slap around when it's cold.

I would say it has to be in the mid 20s or below for it to really do it on RL 5w30. It still does it on RL 0w30, it's just "muted" quite a bit. Honestly the block heater helps the most at keeping it to a minimal which makes sense because the block is being warmed.

It hasn't been in the 20s here yet but frome the few times it's been below freezing here it's slapped quite a bit on RL 0w20. Doubt I'll he running that again lol.

 

[Burla]

Breaking News, Redline High Performance line NOACKS have dropped lower, now 5w30 noack 4 pdf. 5w20 redline now has a noack of 4 as well, I have a hard time believing this because the hths is the same as before. I wonder if they were this low all along to be honest. Website still has old noacks, not sure it really matters for our purposes.

 

[Hemi395]

Breaking News, Redline High Performance line NOACKS have dropped lower, now 5w30 noack 4 pdf. 5w20 redline now has a noack of 4 as well, I have a hard time believing this because the hths is the same as before. I wonder if they were this low all along to be honest.

Did they reformulate?

 

[Burla]

Did they reformulate?

I don't think so, maybe the pdf is a mistake.