The First Oil Change -New Owner Questions

[Burla]

The manufacture does have the burden to prove that a non-approved oil caused the initial failure inline with the Magunson-Moss Warranty Act.

Have you ever heard of a case anywhere where an established none API cert group 4 or 5 oil has ever been proven to cause any damage? Even more specific that the use of Redline, Amsoil or Motul has ever been the cause for a warranty denial claim? Thanks..

 

[NYCruiser]

I haven't heard of any cases of any oil that was changed regularly being blamed for damage. Warrantee or otherwise.

 

[Ocelot]

My understanding is that as long as an API certified oil is used then warranty is warranty unless it is clearly labeled that a specific oil MUST be use. Not recommended, but must. In addition to that, a dealer would have to prove that the oil caused the problem.

I've never heard of a dealer successfully getting out of a warranty claim because of a brand of oil that is API certified. Sure, they might say screw you and deny warranty coverage, but a quick call to Chrysler will take care of that. They are not going to risk going to court and the publicity that comes with it.

Ray

 

[arod412]

I would think that if it would ever go public, not only does Chrysler takes a hit, but the specific oil will take a hit as well. Both sides will have to prove their case and at that point it would be out of the owners hands while the the two companies go to the lab and analyze everything. It would be a long drawn out process for both. That's not to mention that you could probly sue the station that put the oil in ( if they knew its not approved oil for that engine) or the company that distributes that oil advertizing that oil is motor oil.

That's a huge can of worms that would open because everybody would be pointing at each other.

Angel

"worrying about MPG in a truck is like looking at a Prius tow rating"

 

[NYCruiser]

Does anyone have an example of an engine failure due to any brand of oil?

I've read a lot of why one oil is better than another, but haven't seen any examples of what could happen if you use a lesser oil.

Anyone?

 

[The Unabomber]

In all my years I've never seen an engine related failure due to lubricant. I'm sure it happens if say a bad batch of oil goes out but it's extremely rare I'm sure.

 

[Burla]

Does anyone have an example of an engine failure due to any brand of oil?

I've read a lot of why one oil is better than another, but haven't seen any examples of what could happen if you use a lesser oil.

Anyone?

pistons long term use


Engines break down all the time, how could you for sure know? Even in this example we don't know how the pCV was in both engines. It is impossible to know for sure, but it is easy to know that some oils will keep your engine cleaner and hold TBN for much longer then others. I can tell you the sludge prone engines really benefit from using a top quality oil.

Would you put dirty water in your radiator to save a penny? Dirtier gas in your gas tank to save a dollar? Then why put a dirtier oil in your crankcase? The argument is always, "is this really necessary." And more and more auto manufacturers are saying yes, it really is. Recommending synthetics in many tranny's and gears, and many say you have to use synthetics in your engines as well. If you use a non synthetic transmsion oil you will not meet ram's requirements. You have to be pretty obtuse to not recognize the over whelming evidence of the benefits of synthetic oils.

There is nothing better about conventional oil except price and cost. The price is cheaper, the cost is your engine will be dirtier faster.

Synthetic testing Mopar atf4

From link Graphs in the paper show that the friction coefficient of fresh ATF+3 and ATF+4 is essentially identical, but as the fluid ages ATF+4 retains the “as new” coefficient while ATF+3 degrades.


Sorry there is so much reading as opposed to engines tear downs, but the evidence about what synthetics do are over whelming in all manufacturer testing. The characteristics of synthetic oils are what I prefer in my truck, and I also respect anyone who chooses to use conventional or even **** if you want.

 

[Burla]

Sorry Cruizer, I reread that and I may have come off too judgmental and that was not my intent at all. I believe that every Ram owner should do their own research in this area and it is good people keep asking these questions IMO.

 

[NYCruiser]

LOL - that piston video was showing pistons from a DA-50 50cc model airplane engine. With the number of vehicles on the road, that's the failure example? I'm going to take that as a "no" answer to my question. I just can't find any failure examples due to oil brand or type. Maybe you don't need to change better oil as often, but other than that I'm calling it all snake oil for practical purposes. (or at least for my purposes) Thanks for the reply though.

 

[Etroze86]

When companies come down and try to diagnose engine failure there really isn't a good way to blame it on the oil. Say there is a low end knock and a tech does a tear down and finds one of the rod bearings wiped out. They probably won't even think to question the type of oil but more if there was adequate oil in the engine or if it was just a bearing/batch of bearings. When I was a tech I know type of oil definitely wasn't the think I thought of when looking for part failures.

 

[BossHogg]

Have you ever heard of a case anywhere where an established none API cert group 4 or 5 oil has ever been proven to cause any damage? Even more specific that the use of Redline, Amsoil or Motul has ever been the cause for a warranty denial claim? Thanks..

No, in fact, the only engine failures I was aware of (not as an arbitrator, I worked at GM powertrain before for retirement) were the diesels that guys would soup up, blow up, and then try to claim warranty. GM fought back on those and won. Many believe a custom tune can be removed without a trace being left behind in the ECU, that just isn't true.

When companies come down and try to diagnose engine failure there really isn't a good way to blame it on the oil.

We had an entire staff off PhD's in chemical fields like lubrication and fuels plus mechanical engineer's specializing in drive line forensics. These guys could look at the wear on a part and tell you what oil was used, they are that good. The purpose wasn't to fight back against warranty claims as much as it was to diagnose catastrophic drive line failures so the product could be made more reliable. The goal being customer satisfaction, reduced warranty claims, and meeting emission requirements.

 

[NYCruiser]

We had an entire staff off PhD's in chemical fields like lubrication and fuels plus mechanical engineer's specializing in drive line forensics. These guys could look at the wear on a part and tell you what oil was used, they are that good. The purpose wasn't to fight back against warranty claims as much as it was to diagnose catastrophic drive line failures so the product could be made more reliable. The goal being customer satisfaction, reduced warranty claims, and meeting emission requirements.

And after all that, Ram is shipping the trucks with conventional Penzoil in the crankcase and recommending their customers follow suit………..hmmmmm……….

 

[BossHogg]

And after all that, Ram is shipping the trucks with conventional Penzoil in the crankcase and recommending their customers follow suit………..hmmmmm……….

What is wrong with that? Do you know something the PhD's don't?

People have a way of hyping up products (ignore the marketing hype, I read it on the Internet, and the he said she said stuff), in this case, synthetic oil. Yes, there are benefits but most people change their oil more often than required thus tossing out the benefits of synthetic oil and its blends (there are exceptions).

I wish I had the ability to hook up a few of the lubrication experts I worked with, there would be a change of attitude on oil usage, a little bit of knowledge is, well.

I will leave it at this, there is a lot of research that goes in to what the manufacture recommends, it is far from an off the cuff decision. I'm not interested in changing any one's opinion but I would encourage you to research and to understand lubrication. I am happy to share my powertrain engineering experiences with anyone interested but I am not interested in debating, in is not productive.

 

[NYCruiser]

Exactly. Read my earlier posts. I think expensive oil is snake oil.


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[Etroze86]

We had an entire staff off PhD's in chemical fields like lubrication and fuels plus mechanical engineer's specializing in drive line forensics. These guys could look at the wear on a part and tell you what oil was used, they are that good. The purpose wasn't to fight back against warranty claims as much as it was to diagnose catastrophic drive line failures so the product could be made more reliable. The goal being customer satisfaction, reduced warranty claims, and meeting emission requirements.


Atcually this is very informative even if its a debate so please keep sharing your knowledge.
Now I understand that there are PhDs that are there to anylize parts failures but I can't see that in a warranty claim process as it takes a considerable amount of time and money to do for each and every claim. Re-occuring failures heck yes I'd see why you would do a formal analysis for this as they would want to see what is causing the failure.
It personally doesn't matter what kind of oil people are running to me as long as they are running it correctly. Rule of thumb for sever climates like it is here in ND is 3000 miles for conventional (what now is mostly a blend), and 5000 with regular synthetic oils(group 3) are used. This is what was taught in an ASE cert class about 10 years ago and I believe still holds a lot of weight behind it for people that live in climates that change every year from -40 to 100 degrees F. Agian its all on what people want to do but I know switching to Amsoil I will be getting an oil analysis done at different intervals for my piece of mind.

 

[NYCruiser]

If I could find even one documented case of premature engine failure due to a particular brand, or even type, of oil; I would immediately take heed.
I just can't find any cases.
Seems like there should be one with all the engines out there for all these years, and the premium oil manufacturers would be advertising it.

Seems like developing better and better oils is just overkill beyond the needs of our application. I wish they would develop a 100K mile tire that didn't need rotating. I would buy that at a premium price.

 

[Burla]

I think expensive oil is snake oil.

Any proof of that? I thought not.

 

[NYCruiser]

Any proof of that? I thought not.

None other than the engine manufacturers aren't recommending it for their engines. Maybe that's just a conspiracy to sell more engines? LOL

Do I really have to prove what I think? LOL

 

[Ocelot]

Sometimes what is recommended is due to a marketing standpoint. Telling someone buying a truck that they have to have $100 + full synthetic oil change every time (including Labor) may turn away customers. Especially when regular dino should be fine for 100,000 miles which is the highest warranty other than some rare extended ones.

The point isn't whether or not you need more expensive synthetic, it's whether or not it's better over the life of the motor.

Ray