UPDATED - Failed Tranny 2.0

[mtofell]

2014 Hemi 6.4 4X4, 93K - totally stock truck.

Some of you may remember my original tranny blew up at 38K and was rebuilt under warranty. It never felt right to me and I complained to the dealer several times after picking it up. Despite harsh shifts and clunking I was given the Ram dealer standard response of, "can't find anything wrong, operating normal".

Fast-forward +/- 3 years and 55K miles and it's in the shop again. It was slipping a bit and last week went into limp mode (gets stuck in 4th and 1st gears only - turn the truck off/on and it starts over again). Yesterday heading home it was getting really bad and this morning it slammed around a lot, tack revved up and finally threw an error code - something about 5th gear ratio failed. I managed to drive it to the dealer. They say from the code it could just be the valve body (again....) but they won't know until they get into it. They probably won't know until next week when they have time to look at it.

It's covered under the Lifetime Maxcare warranty so we'll just have to wait and see what they come up with.

I'm actually somewhat relieved as I knew it wasn't right and was kind of just expecting it to fail again at some point. Luckily, it happened away from RV season and while not towing.

 

[Iron Outlaw]

Between transmission and lifter issues on here I wish to God I bought the lifetime warranty. I've been lucky with no issues at 85,000 miles but my transmission has some harsh shifts every now and then.

 

[olyelr]

Keep us updated!

 

[reek]

not good. in the old days it always seemed if you could get past 30,000 most cars were 'in the clear'. now it seems more like a crap shoot. of course, old cars were good to only about 100,000 miles.

hope they get it sorted once and for all this time. you can only hope they just replace it all together than rebuild it this time.

 

[Fast69Mopar]

not good. in the old days it always seemed if you could get past 30,000 most cars were 'in the clear'. now it seems more like a crap shoot. of course, old cars were good to only about 100,000 miles.

hope they get it sorted once and for all this time. you can only hope they just replace it all together than rebuild it this time.

I'm not sure if the dealer can make the 70% rule apply to his trans or not. The 70% rule is if the cost of repair is at least 70% of the cost of replacement then the dealer can put a complete unit in the truck and let it roll. Most of the time for the 70% rule to apply you pretty much have to have a catastrophic failure that tears up a bunch of internal hard parts.

I rarely get to use the 70% rule on the RFE trans any more. When the 48RE's were still under warranty it was really easy to 70% one of them. I had a rash of 48RE's that I couldn't even get torn down due to the torque converters being welded to the pumps or the front clutch retainer was welded together.

 

[CVX20]

I'm not sure if the dealer can make the 70% rule apply to his trans or not. The 70% rule is if the cost of repair is at least 70% of the cost of replacement then the dealer can put a complete unit in the truck and let it roll. Most of the time for the 70% rule to apply you pretty much have to have a catastrophic failure that tears up a bunch of internal hard parts.

I rarely get to use the 70% rule on the RFE trans any more. When the 48RE's were still under warranty it was really easy to 70% one of them. I had a rash of 48RE's that I couldn't even get torn down due to the torque converters being welded to the pumps or the front clutch retainer was welded together.

Can you really get a brand new trans or does FCA have a program like GM's SRTA .You couldn't get a new trans you just got a rebuild from the program instead of someone(me) building yours at the dealer.You couldn't buy a brand new trans for any kind of money.

 

[Fast69Mopar]

Can you really get a brand new trans or does FCA have a program like GM's SRTA .You couldn't get a new trans you just got a rebuild from the program instead of someone(me) building yours at the dealer.You couldn't buy a brand new trans for any kind of money.

I haven't been involved in any situation where I received a new unit as a mechanic. Every single one has been a reman unit. I have installed reman engines and transmissions in basically new vehicles with less than 3500 miles. The customers were obviously pissed off that they weren't getting a new one but that is just the way it is.

 

[mtofell]

The first time it was rebuilt the tech said the valve body "blew apart and tore up the entire inside of the transmission - fragments of metal everywhere". Even with that it was just a rebuild of the same unit so I'm expecting that again.

I'm not sure what is causing this unit to be so problematic. The truck is totally stock and I drive it like an old guy and just use the truck as a daily driver - less than 5% of miles are towing and I haven't towed since August. My commute is a mix of some city and some rural driving - nothing harsh at all.

They are supposed to be getting to it this week so I should hear something soon and will let you all know. Thanks for the info.

 

[68PowerWagon]

The first time it was rebuilt the tech said the valve body "blew apart and tore up the entire inside of the transmission - fragments of metal everywhere". Even with that it was just a rebuild of the same unit so I'm expecting that again.

I'm not sure what is causing this unit to be so problematic. The truck is totally stock and I drive it like an old guy and just use the truck as a daily driver - less than 5% of miles are towing and I haven't towed since August. My commute is a mix of some city and some rural driving - nothing harsh at all.

They are supposed to be getting to it this week so I should hear something soon and will let you all know. Thanks for the info.

Wholly crap mtofell. You don't make me feel all warm & fuzzy about towing this upcoming camping season.

 

[Fast69Mopar]

The first time it was rebuilt the tech said the valve body "blew apart and tore up the entire inside of the transmission - fragments of metal everywhere". Even with that it was just a rebuild of the same unit so I'm expecting that again.

I'm not sure what is causing this unit to be so problematic. The truck is totally stock and I drive it like an old guy and just use the truck as a daily driver - less than 5% of miles are towing and I haven't towed since August. My commute is a mix of some city and some rural driving - nothing harsh at all.

They are supposed to be getting to it this week so I should hear something soon and will let you all know. Thanks for the info.

I wish you had some pics of the blown up valve body. I'd like to see a valve body that has literally come apart and grenaded a trans. With all the transmissions I have disassembled there isn't much that I have not seen.

I can't remember if you said anything about this or not but have you received any preliminary diagnosis yet? Did you have any DTC's set? Maybe some gear ratio errors?

 

[mtofell]

Maybe some gear ratio errors?

When I brought it in the service tech pulled a code and said it was giving a 5th gear ratio error fault (can't remember exactly what he called it but that is close).

I first noticed it acting way out of normal (keeping in mind "normal" was still kind of crappy - last 50K) about a week before it threw a code. It started slipping under moderate/hard acceleration up around 3rd/4th gears and would then go into limp mode. At first it did it once randomly and then was fine for about 500 miles. Then did it twice in one day as I was coming home and I knew something was going real bad. Next morning it started slipping/thunking and banging gears REALLY bad before hitting limp mode. I made to my morning appointment and then headed for the dealer. About halfway through the drive (well into limp mode) it turned on a CEL which is the one the dealer pulled.

This was a much less violent and total failure as the first time. That time it did nothing out of the ordinary prior to just giving out while I was in stop/go traffic on the freeway. Traffic took off, I hit the gas, the tach revved and I basically didn't move. I did manage to limp it to the next exit a couple miles down - slipping and banging the whole way. As I pulled off the road I lost all forward gears and had to back into a parking lot. Finally, as I was parking, the CEL light came on.... almost comically so.

 

[Fast69Mopar]

When I brought it in the service tech pulled a code and said it was giving a 5th gear ratio error fault (can't remember exactly what he called it but that is close).

I first noticed it acting way out of normal (keeping in mind "normal" was still kind of crappy - last 50K) about a week before it threw a code. It started slipping under moderate/hard acceleration up around 3rd/4th gears and would then go into limp mode. At first it did it once randomly and then was fine for about 500 miles. Then did it twice in one day as I was coming home and I knew something was going real bad. Next morning it started slipping/thunking and banging gears REALLY bad before hitting limp mode. I made to my morning appointment and then headed for the dealer. About halfway through the drive (well into limp mode) it turned on a CEL which is the one the dealer pulled.

This was a much less violent and total failure as the first time. That time it did nothing out of the ordinary prior to just giving out while I was in stop/go traffic on the freeway. Traffic took off, I hit the gas, the tach revved and I basically didn't move. I did manage to limp it to the next exit a couple miles down - slipping and banging the whole way. As I pulled off the road I lost all forward gears and had to back into a parking lot. Finally, as I was parking, the CEL light came on.... almost comically so.

Do you happen to have the repair order from the last time the transmission was overhauled? I'd like to see what the parts list looked like and to read the technicians story as to what work was performed. I have been turning wrenches in the dealership world for 20 years and have worked in independent shops at the same time. I like to rear other techs stories on the repair orders to see what exactly went on with the repairs.

 

[CVX20]

I wish you had some pics of the blown up valve body. I'd like to see a valve body that has literally come apart and grenaded a trans. With all the transmissions I have disassembled there isn't much that I have not seen.

I can't remember if you said anything about this or not but have you received any preliminary diagnosis yet? Did you have any DTC's set? Maybe some gear ratio errors?

Totally agree!

 

[mtofell]

Do you happen to have the repair order from the last time the transmission was overhauled? I'd like to see what the parts list looked like and to read the technicians story as to what work was performed. I have been turning wrenches in the dealership world for 20 years and have worked in independent shops at the same time. I like to rear other techs stories on the repair orders to see what exactly went on with the repairs.

Yep, here's the invoice from last time.

 

[Fast69Mopar]

Yep, here's the invoice from last time.

I have repaired and replaced plenty of RFE valve bodies over the years from cracked and damaged accumulator plates but none that have sent metal throughout the trans like what he said. Most of the ones I see are bent or "ballooned" out.

After looking at the techs story and his parts list that is billed to the repair order, all I see is a gasket package, valve body, torque converter and a pump cover along with an O/D Clutch Pressure Plate. In his story he said he replaced "all clutches and steels". I don't see any clutches or steels billed to the repair order so unless he had a couple of extra sets of clutches in his tool box or his cabinet and used them to perform the repair I would be really curious to actually see inside the trans to find out what was actually replaced.

 

[mtofell]

I have repaired and replaced plenty of RFE valve bodies over the years from cracked and damaged accumulator plates but none that have sent metal throughout the trans like what he said. Most of the ones I see are bent or "ballooned" out.

After looking at the techs story and his parts list that is billed to the repair order, all I see is a gasket package, valve body, torque converter and a pump cover along with an O/D Clutch Pressure Plate. In his story he said he replaced "all clutches and steels". I don't see any clutches or steels billed to the repair order so unless he had a couple of extra sets of clutches in his tool box or his cabinet and used them to perform the repair I would be really curious to actually see inside the trans to find out what was actually replaced.

Great info.... A lot of this is Greek to me but I generally get the idea. Do you think my rebuilt tranny is more likely to fail a second time or do you think I'm just lucky?

 

[Fast69Mopar]

Great info.... A lot of this is Greek to me but I generally get the idea. Do you think my rebuilt tranny is more likely to fail a second time or do you think I'm just lucky?

Transmission repairs are "Greek" to alot of people including the mechanics who are tasked to diagnose and repair them. That's why most dealerships have one real transmission tech and a somewhat qualified backup. It's too easy to make a mistake. Roll a seal over during installation or put the wrong selectable thickness snap ring in a clutch retainer and the problems ensue.

I would be asking the service manager about what is being replaced this time. Are they going to replace the trans pump? I sure as hell would after a 2nd failure if it was me. I would also ask if they are going to flush the cooler and the cooler lines this time?

With a P0735 Gear ratio error in 5th it indicates a problem can exist in the O/D clutch and the 4C clutch because these are the two clutches being applied for 5th gear operation. I'm guessing that the O/D clutches are burnt and possibly the 4C clutch has a problem too but it's just a guess.

 

[mtofell]

Got an update today from the dealer - tranny is out of the truck and headed for another rebuild. He threw a lot of techie stuff at me and I'll do my best to convey what he said - valve body float balls (?) were fine and functional so fluid wasn't being cutoff to anywhere that they could tell. Something about some solenoids and bearing packs will be replaced. A couple burned clutch discs - #5 for sure and he said one other than I cant remember.

I asked if the first failure and rebuild could have something to do with this one and he said possibly the initial failure damaged some parts that weren't replaced last time. He did say this time it's different parts - so I guess that means parts that remained and are original and lived through the first failure.

I'm no transmission tech but if I could piece together what I think it's that they did the bare minimum to get it rolling last time. Probably should have replaced more parts. After all, if not for my warranty they'd be out from under responsibility so their repair was successful for their purposes in most cases. Kind of goes along with Ram's M.O. with other things from what I've seen and read about here.

 

[chrisbh17]

Got an update today from the dealer - tranny is out of the truck and headed for another rebuild. He threw a lot of techie stuff at me and I'll do my best to convey what he said - valve body float balls (?) were fine and functional so fluid wasn't being cutoff to anywhere that they could tell. Something about some solenoids and bearing packs will be replaced. A couple burned clutch discs - #5 for sure and he said one other than I cant remember.

I asked if the first failure and rebuild could have something to do with this one and he said possibly the initial failure damaged some parts that weren't replaced last time. He did say this time it's different parts - so I guess that means parts that remained and are original and lived through the first failure.

I'm no transmission tech but if I could piece together what I think it's that they did the bare minimum to get it rolling last time. Probably should have replaced more parts. After all, if not for my warranty they'd be out from under responsibility so their repair was successful for their purposes in most cases. Kind of goes along with Ram's M.O. with other things from what I've seen and read about here.

Yep.

They seem to rather take a shot at cheaping out and hoping it works, but in the end they end up doing the work multiple times, costing more than it would have to just do it right the first time.

Did you mention that they said one of the clutch packs was burnt initially but it was NOT on the first repair order?

Good proof of exactly the theory - cheapest way out, even if they do it two or three times and ends up costing twice as much as just fixing it right the first time.

 

[mtofell]

Yep.

They seem to rather take a shot at cheaping out and hoping it works, but in the end they end up doing the work multiple times, costing more than it would have to just do it right the first time.

Did you mention that they said one of the clutch packs was burnt initially but it was NOT on the first repair order?

Good proof of exactly the theory - cheapest way out, even if they do it two or three times and ends up costing twice as much as just fixing it right the first time.

There are some burnt clutches now but I don't know that they were that way the first time around.

I understand the cheapest way out thing but in most cases that would have worked for them as most people don't have the warranty I do. At 38K for the first rebuild it made it well past the 60K where the usual power train coverage ends. So, under normal circumstances they would have benefited by taking the cheap way out.

As the years and miles tick by I think I'm kind of a rare bird having a completely non-modified truck and having not wrecked or sold the truck. I've also had EVERY oil change and service done at the dealer. One big reason is to keep my warranty intact with no questions asked. The service writer said he is waiting to hear back from Ram warranty before he can order parts. You can bet they are asking if he can find anything relevant that has been modified on the truck.