Yet another oil thread..

[HEMIMANN]

I use PUP 0W-40 in my Ram 2500 & 6.4L HEMI, per OEM recommendation (& marketing agreement with Royal Dutch Shell).

I had been using Mobil 1 for decades, but thought PUP might be better with all the push on engine cleanliness needed for whiz bang gizmos (VVT, MDS, etc.) that are actually hydraulic systems with solenoid valves and orifices. When I changed, I noticed right away that none of my engines used oil anymore. I change @ 5-6k miles due to the fragile valve lifter rollers.

Red Line is great, but costs 2-1/2 times as much as PUP. I don't see the benefit for throwing it away every 5k miles due to contamination in the engine environment.

 

[GsRAM]

I thought I remember where you use the Royal Purple filter 20-820 instead of the 10-48. It looks like the canister size is 22mm x 1.5 threads on both filters. I'm about to do my first oil change and wondered if there are any fitment concerns going with the bigger filter? I have no idea what oil the previous owner used. I'm only at 28,000K and no hemi tick so will use the PUP 0-40 to start.

Correct royal purple 20-820 is what i am running. That is the larger filter. No issues with fitment, still plenty of room. No operating issues either. All is well after several months of use. It is notably larger than the OEM filter also which I prefer.

 

[GsRAM]

I use PUP 0W-40 in my Ram 2500 & 6.4L HEMI, per OEM recommendation (& marketing agreement with Royal Dutch Shell).

I had been using Mobil 1 for decades, but thought PUP might be better with all the push on engine cleanliness needed for whiz bang gizmos (VVT, MDS, etc.) that are actually hydraulic systems with solenoid valves and orifices. When I changed, I noticed right away that none of my engines used oil anymore. I change @ 5-6k miles due to the fragile valve lifter rollers.

Red Line is great, but costs 2-1/2 times as much as PUP. I don't see the benefit for throwing it away every 5k miles due to contamination in the engine environment.

Red line is 2.5xs more than PUP?

Where are you getting your oils from? I got 2 4Q jugs of redline from summit racing for about $100/shipped IIRC. The PUP was $80 with a mopar filter/shipped from avondale dodge on Ebay was the best I found, that was only 7Q though.

I change my oil every 5k which is annually for me, so the price difference is no big deal, especially with the proven benefits of the redline (Thank you @Burla !)

Just my thoughts, God gave us all the choice of free will for a reason. PUP is a good oil, nothing wrong with it. Use what you like, regular PMs is the key.

 

[HEMIMANN]

I find PUP 0W-40 only at Amazon for $7 / quart, they just raised price from 5.60 / quart last time I bought, but haven't looked lately.

Lowest Red Line I find is $17 / quart. Appropriate for a polyol ester, low sales volume engine oil. 17 ÷ 7 = 2.42 times higher.

Also concerned with issue of water incompatibility with polyol ester. Water is a principle byproduct of combustion. Some gets into crankcase via blowby. More so on engines used in consumer use like ours that don't get changed often. Jet engines are np as all the have are bearings.

 

[Burla]

UOA's of redline more then prove there are no water retention issues. But nothing wrong with running group 3 oil.

 

[Zoe Saldana]

I use PUP 0W-40 in my Ram 2500 & 6.4L HEMI, per OEM recommendation (& marketing agreement with Royal Dutch Shell).

I had been using Mobil 1 for decades, but thought PUP might be better with all the push on engine cleanliness needed for whiz bang gizmos (VVT, MDS, etc.) that are actually hydraulic systems with solenoid valves and orifices. When I changed, I noticed right away that none of my engines used oil anymore. I change @ 5-6k miles due to the fragile valve lifter rollers.

Red Line is great, but costs 2-1/2 times as much as PUP. I don't see the benefit for throwing it away every 5k miles due to contamination in the engine environment.

I'm not pushing RL but you can get 12 qts on Amazon for $125.

Also, you don't have to go full one brand or another. Try 4 RL and 3 PUP.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Thanks for the update. I need to shop some more.

Not sure it's ok to blend different types of oil base stocks? (PAO & PE)

I used to change oil 3x a year. That'd be $210 difference, but post-pandemic who knows how far any of us will be driving? Likely to be less, if anything. So diff will shrink. No question PE is superior lubricant.

Edit Update: Red Line 0W-40 on Amazon is now $131 for 12 qts = $10.92 per qt.
PUP 0W-40 on Amazon is now $43.75 for 6 qts = $7.29 per qt.

Difference is $3.63 per qt more for Red Line x 7 qts per OCI = $25.41 more per OCI. Much less than I thought. The higher price I quoted for Red Line earlier was Summit Auto Racing - did not see Red Line was on Amazon, thx.

 

[GsRAM]

I find PUP 0W-40 only at Amazon for $7 / quart, they just raised price from 5.60 / quart last time I bought, but haven't looked lately.

Lowest Red Line I find is $17 / quart. Appropriate for a polyol ester, low sales volume engine oil. 17 ÷ 7 = 2.42 times higher.

Also concerned with issue of water incompatibility with polyol ester. Water is a principle byproduct of combustion. Some gets into crankcase via blowby. More so on engines used in consumer use like ours that don't get changed often. Jet engines are np as all the have are bearings.

I have no idea what your talking about.

Here's a link to summit

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/red-11105

$51/gallon is 12.75/qt. That is under 2xs the cost and for me, with the known hemi issues is well worth the price of admission.

What am I missing?

But as I said, to each their own. In my opinion, for a $7k engine, I choose to give it the best oil I can. Without @Burla I'd be none the wiser.

 

[HEMIMANN]

My bad - I was recently into gear oils and got my research mixed up. Yes, I see Red Line 0W-40 Motor Oil @ Summit for $12.95 This makes it competitive for 5,000 mile oil changes, and arguably the superior lubricant (polyol ester affinity for metal surfaces, lower volatility, higher boiling temp, etc.).

For a 7 quart 0W-40 engine oil change, without shipping and taxes, if any:
PUP = $51.95
Red Line = $90.65
Amsoil = $93.10

PUP from Amazon, Red Line from multiple sites, Amsoil website. I don't recall Amsoil being priced this low?

I appreciate posters straightening out my price confusion. For only $40 more per oil change, I think I will upgrade. I have one PUP inventory change to consume 1st.

Any thoughts on difference between Red Line and Amsoil regarding piston ring / groove cleanliness (PUP advertised heavily against Mobil 1 for this) and lesser shear down?

 

[Burla]

Just fyi on base stocks, we have been blending them now for a decade at ram forum w/o issue. PAO comes from ground oil and is very compatible with group 3, and esters need group 4 or 3, or combo of to even be compatible our applications, trans, engine, diff, t case, brake fluid, whatever else. Anyhow, these things haven't had compatibility issues since like the 60's, that stuff is long solved.

 

[Mgrimm1]

UOA's of redline more then prove there are no water retention issues. But nothing wrong with running group 3 oil.

Is PUP a group 3 oil and is RL something different? Where can I find out more about group 3 or other group classifications of oils? That sounds like another thread on here somewhere.

 

[Burla]

Is PUP a group 3 oil and is RL something different? Where can I find out more about group 3 or other group classifications of oils? That sounds like another thread on here somewhere.

Pup is gas to liquid, technically group 3, but most people believe it should be in it's own grouping, like 3.5 or something. Redline is pao and esters. Group 3's can be dressed up to act like group 4/5 by using vii's, but as you use the oil the vii's actually become unusable and can cause carbon. Even pao and ester oil will use vii's in some formulas, especially formulas with big swing winter rating to weight. Better explanation here.

or here.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Still flipping coins between Red Line & Amsoil.
Was surprised to see latest film strength test data from 540Ratblog that Amsoil was significantly higher than Red Line. Neither appeared to shear at higher temp, either.

I'm not a fan boy of either - I've never used either. Currently using PUP, which is lesser than both, but ok. But I need to pick one if I want to upgrade. Same pricing, despite completely different base oils. I'm also aware they may or may not save a bad Hemi lifter - another thread has a guy who used all Amsoil and still had a lifter go.

 

[Gr8bawana]

another thread has a guy who used all Amsoil and still had a lifter go.

What?! How is that possible? The guys here who swear by Amsoil make it sound like it could cure or prevent anything, maybe even cancer.

 

[HEMIMANN]

Um, again....the point is it is likely not related to which oil you use. The quality and lubricity determines how much wear you get, and how clean the engine stays. Not whether a valve lifter fails.

 

[crazy jerry]

Still flipping coins between Red Line & Amsoil.
Was surprised to see latest film strength test data from 540Ratblog that Amsoil was significantly higher than Red Line. Neither appeared to shear at higher temp, either.

I'm not a fan boy of either - I've never used either. Currently using PUP, which is lesser than both, but ok. But I need to pick one if I want to upgrade. Same pricing, despite completely different base oils. I'm also aware they may or may not save a bad Hemi lifter - another thread has a guy who used all Amsoil and still had a lifter go.

you sound confused and scared. i suppose theyve convinced you the lifters will implode without the 'upgrade' niche oils

 

[HEMIMANN]

No, not "confused and scared". As an engineer, I am always researching for the optimum solutions for my applications. The opposite of "confused and scared".

Otherwise I wouldn't be here to learn and share. The valve lifter failures are well known, seemingly unpredictable, cost $4,500 to repair without guarantee of success, and are mission-disabling for weeks. I don't know a lot of folks that would consider such an issue a minor detail.

 

[White six four]

I added 10 ounces of the lubegard biotech about halfway through my last oil change a month ago and another 10 ounce bottle when I changed oil a week ago. On a cold start in the morning I had a tick for maybe a second or two that is now gone completely and the motor does seem to run smoother. Ive only used pup 0w40 and just wait for napa to have it on sale for around $6 like they do a few times a year and stock up.

 

[Mgrimm1]

Pup is gas to liquid, technically group 3, but most people believe it should be in it's own grouping, like 3.5 or something. Redline is pao and esters. Group 3's can be dressed up to act like group 4/5 by using vii's, but as you use the oil the vii's actually become unusable and can cause carbon. Even pao and ester oil will use vii's in some formulas, especially formulas with big swing winter rating to weight. Better explanation here.

or here.

Good explanations in the links you provided - thanks. Besides RL, are there other group 4 brands you all are recommending?

I've read my labels up and down on PUP and Amsoil and don't see classified by group 3 or 4 anywhere on label, so assuming you have to determine that information somewhere else.

 

[Burla]

They never say, they used to until the lawsuit that allowed group 3 to be called "synthetic". You need to compare cold pour points and hot viscosity indicators such as hths and noack and oxidation numbers to even prove the use of some of these. If you look at old amsoil marketing they say group 4 everywhere. After "lawsuit" they stopped, officially said they aren't discussing it, and stat sheets suggested group 3 oil, but then without explanation new formulas went back to low noacks and low pour points that you cant achieve with mineral oils.

As far as redline, they have always been "ester" based and says so I believe on bottle and everywhere, unless I am mistaking. It is however a matter of interpretation whether someone believes it is ester based, because it doesn't have a majority of esters, it can't. If it was 100% ester based you couldn't use it. Interesting this is in the same page... So the marketing was confusing even to me for sure, and it has all been changing largely because of that judgement that allowed group 3 to be called synthetic.

• Full-synthetic ester formula for passenger cars, light trucks, performance vehicles and marine applications
• Designed to provide the highest protection, efficiency, cleanliness and superior drain intervals
• Excellent wear protection and friction reduction across a wide range of operating conditions
• High detergency allows extended drain intervals and provides increased cleanliness
• Improved fuel economy and ring seal for more power
• Superior high temperature stability and oxidation resistance increases lubrication of hot metal compared to other synthetics
• High natural viscosity index (VI) provides thicker oil film in bearings and cams
• Less evaporation than other synthetics for improved efficiency and ring seal
• Blended with polyol ester base stocks that feature natural multi-grade properties, avoiding unnecessary additives that hinder lubricity

But anyhow, low pour points and noacks in the 5 and 6's just can't be done with group 3 oils. The real move is matching an oil to a strategy, as opposed to hunting pao/ester content. I only use redline in my truck, and only because I have or should I say had hemi tick. The wife SUV gets PUP. Great stuff PUP imo.