Yet another oil thread..

[Burla]

amsoils 2018 statement on it...

 

[Mgrimm1]

@Burla good explanation and I can't say that I understand all the details, (you are vey knowledgeable on this topic) but I do know that if I develop the hemi tick, I'm going with Red Line. This weekend will be my first oil change since I bought the truck used and I already bought PUP. I'll use that to start and see what happens.

 

[Burla]

Stick with PUP, and think about poor man's redline lubegard biotech. For 6 bucks, it has a lot of the same stuff in redline, here is a thread. Hemi tick or not, our hemi's are starved at idle, it doesn't hurt to get some ep additives between that lifter and cam lob.

 

[HEMIMANN]

If I could figure out a way to attach a spreadsheet in this forum, I could show summary test data of relative lubricity (film strength) of various motor oils, for directional use.

Without knowing the absolute root cause of the hemi tick lifter / cam failures, all we can do is use best motor oils we can figure. The test data shows PUP 0W-40 is not one of them. I very highly suspect FCA grabbed at this viscosity solely out of spec'ing it for Hellcat 6.4, which also may be very wrong.

Viscosity alone does not provide film strength. The test data clearly shows that.

Burla, you must be, or have been a tribologist to know all this!

 

[NWhunt]

following

 

[HEMIMANN]

Shoutout to Burla and supporting members for spending time with me to understand hemi engine valve lifter failures and best response to mitigate.

As a result and after much study, I am switching from PUP 0W-40 to Red Line 5W-30 @ next oil change in the spring (@ 5k OCI). I'm doing so now to minimize probability of lifter failures, not wait until or unless it occurs. Repair of $4,500 and loss of vehicle during, with same design replacement is unacceptable to me. Even more so on a $50k vehicle.

The value of this site to me led me to become a Supporting Member. Thank you again.
For those interested, I'm summarizing my findings below in bullet form. Stop reading here if uninterested. Feel free to comment or PM me if you would like more detail.

My truck: Ram 2500 HD Crew Cab, 6.4L HEMI, 36k miles.
Location: Central Minnesota (ambients from -30F to +100F)
Application: Mostly dead-heading, some bed loads, sporadic towing with 6,000 lb trailer loads, in hilly driftless midwest region.

FCA Oil Recommended: Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0W-40
Optimized Oil Study: Red Line 5W-30
Reference Ram 1500 5.7L HEMI FCA Oil Recommended: Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20

Reasons to switch oil:
- Forum Member experiences with Red Line quieting valve lifter tick, no reported failures known.
- FCA Oil recommendation started with SRT Hemi in Car Applications - trucks were added later.
- SRT is completely different application - supercharged, high rev, high horsepower, racing.
- 40 wt oils are used in highly loaded, high revving, or charged (turbo or super chargers) application, not low rev, naturally aspirated truck engines.
- Red Line 5W-30 is a high 30 wt....closer to low 40 wt
- Hemi 5.7 in half ton truck recommended oil is only 5W-20, 20 wt likely for US CAFE fuel economy sales standards - 30 wt is optimal. This provides directional input for all truck applications.
- 0W oils have 50% higher volatility and generally lower HTHS film strength, also shear down easier.
- 5W provides sufficient cold ambient temp flow for most cold climates - needed only on startup with trucks left outside all night, as in pipelines / rail workers in Canada.
- Red Line oils are polyol ester base stocks (jet oils) that are polar molecules - they adhere to metallic surfaces, unlike PAO synthetics. This "plating-out" is thought to provide better lubrication for the lightly lubricated HEMI valve lifters.
- Polyol Ester base stocks also have high film strength, and even lower volatility than PAO base stocks. Should leave engine parts with minimal deposits and retained oil flow (important for the sensitive valve lifters in HEMI's).
- Polyol Esters are slightly more expensive PAO oils, but I don't drive that many miles anymore (retired), so plan to continue 5k OCI, expense is not major. Amazon has best price for $10.75 per quart in a box of 12 quarts (as of last night).
- Warranty....lots of arguments here. As long as oil is rated SN, Dealers do not have legal right to deny warranty coverage of failure. Reports of them doing so anyway abound, knowing a lawsuit is costly and time-consuming. I'm willing to accept this risk for prevention purposes.

 

[ffpmason]

Has anyone ever looked at Cen Pe Co 5w-40?

 

[Mgrimm1]

Stick with PUP, and think about poor man's redline lubegard biotech. For 6 bucks, it has a lot of the same stuff in redline, here is a thread. Hemi tick or not, our hemi's are starved at idle, it doesn't hurt to get some ep additives between that lifter and cam lob.

So, 1st oil change done since I've owned it. Went with the PUP cause I went with FCA recommendation and added Lubegard Biotech @Burla's suggestion. Also used the larger RP filter. I think it will be my last time going with the PUP. This thread has convinced me to switch to Red Line 5W-30. Before my 2500, I owned a Tundra and before that a F150, and have used Amsoil in those for years so I'm used to paying good money for oil.

I'd like to know if others believe it is wise using an oil flush product from time to time when changing your oil. Here's how I did it this time thinking the oil flush would remove potential gunk if any was built up. I bought the truck with 26000 on it and changed it at 29500. Of course I have no idea what the previous owner used and I do not have the Hemi tick.

I verified oil was at proper level and added the flush, 1 qt. From a cold start, I let the flush run through for 10 minutes with a couple revs to 2500 rpm and drained the oil and discarded the filter. I then replaced it with walmart brand synthetic 5W-30 and and a Fram synthetic oil filter and ran the new oil through at idle for another 10-15 minutes with a couple of revs and drained again and discarded the Fram filter. From there I put in the PUP and RP filter. The flush, extra oil, and filter ran me about $40.

Any benefits or problems with this others can speak to?

 

[Burla]

What did the flush oil look like after you were done?

 

[Mgrimm1]

Not as clear and fresh as out of the bottle, but it still had some translucency to it. It was not black or sludgy.

 

[rule18]

If I could figure out a way to attach a spreadsheet in this forum, I could show summary test data of relative lubricity (film strength) of various motor oils, for directional use.

You could open the spreadsheet, do an ALT+Print Screen and then paste into the Reply text field.

 

[HEMIMANN]

You could open the spreadsheet, do an ALT+Print Screen and then paste into the Reply text field.

Yeah, I thought about this, but if I shrunk the screen shot to fit in here, you couldn't read it. Thanks anyway.

Regarding oil flushes - when I changed from Mobil 1 to PUP a number of years back due to BITOG assessment of Pennzoil / Shell's vaunted engine cleanliness Sequence IIID test results, I did in fact notice the 1st couple oil changes the drain oil was much darker than subsequent oil changes, all at the same OCI's, and relative weather (was driving much more back then).

Other BITOG members noted the same phenomenon, so there must be something to the higher detergency of PUP oil. Once an engine is as clean as can be chemically-scrubbed, I don't think there's much benefit from flushing again - as long as a high quality preventive oil is used subsequently (PUP, Red Line, Amsoil). It is easier to keep machine elements clean than to clean them after they are dirty. Making high quality oil and proper filters / OCI's critical in vehicle longevity.

 

[RAM_Designs]

Now if I could just fix the rear howl.......

RedLine Heavy Shockproof...toss in a quart or two when you put new gear oil in. Worked for me.

 

[KLook]

RedLine Heavy Shockproof...toss in a quart or two when you put new gear oil in. Worked for me.

Thanks, I will do that!

 

[ffpmason]

What is this RP filter you speak of

 

[wallacemf]

What is this RP filter you speak of

RP is Royal Purple, a manufacturer of filters and lubricants.

 

[Rlaman]

Does any one know the zink content of the Red or PUP ?

 

[Rlaman]

Shoutout to Burla and supporting members for spending time with me to understand hemi engine valve lifter failures and best response to mitigate.

As a result and after much study, I am switching from PUP 0W-40 to Red Line 5W-30 @ next oil change in the spring (@ 5k OCI). I'm doing so now to minimize probability of lifter failures, not wait until or unless it occurs. Repair of $4,500 and loss of vehicle during, with same design replacement is unacceptable to me. Even more so on a $50k vehicle.

The value of this site to me led me to become a Supporting Member. Thank you again.
For those interested, I'm summarizing my findings below in bullet form. Stop reading here if uninterested. Feel free to comment or PM me if you would like more detail.

My truck: Ram 2500 HD Crew Cab, 6.4L HEMI, 36k miles.
Location: Central Minnesota (ambients from -30F to +100F)
Application: Mostly dead-heading, some bed loads, sporadic towing with 6,000 lb trailer loads, in hilly driftless midwest region.

FCA Oil Recommended: Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 0W-40
Optimized Oil Study: Red Line 5W-30
Reference Ram 1500 5.7L HEMI FCA Oil Recommended: Pennzoil Ultra Platinum 5W-20

Reasons to switch oil:
- Forum Member experiences with Red Line quieting valve lifter tick, no reported failures known.
- FCA Oil recommendation started with SRT Hemi in Car Applications - trucks were added later.
- SRT is completely different application - supercharged, high rev, high horsepower, racing.
- 40 wt oils are used in highly loaded, high revving, or charged (turbo or super chargers) application, not low rev, naturally aspirated truck engines.
- Red Line 5W-30 is a high 30 wt....closer to low 40 wt
- Hemi 5.7 in half ton truck recommended oil is only 5W-20, 20 wt likely for US CAFE fuel economy sales standards - 30 wt is optimal. This provides directional input for all truck applications.
- 0W oils have 50% higher volatility and generally lower HTHS film strength, also shear down easier.
- 5W provides sufficient cold ambient temp flow for most cold climates - needed only on startup with trucks left outside all night, as in pipelines / rail workers in Canada.
- Red Line oils are polyol ester base stocks (jet oils) that are polar molecules - they adhere to metallic surfaces, unlike PAO synthetics. This "plating-out" is thought to provide better lubrication for the lightly lubricated HEMI valve lifters.
- Polyol Ester base stocks also have high film strength, and even lower volatility than PAO base stocks. Should leave engine parts with minimal deposits and retained oil flow (important for the sensitive valve lifters in HEMI's).
- Polyol Esters are slightly more expensive PAO oils, but I don't drive that many miles anymore (retired), so plan to continue 5k OCI, expense is not major. Amazon has best price for $10.75 per quart in a box of 12 quarts (as of last night).
- Warranty....lots of arguments here. As long as oil is rated SN, Dealers do not have legal right to deny warranty coverage of failure. Reports of them doing so anyway abound, knowing a lawsuit is costly and time-consuming. I'm willing to accept this risk for prevention purposes.

Cant thank you enough. Keep up the good work. Well done.

 

[JB Weld]

Where is everyone getting their Lubegard Bio/Tech?

I put 5w-20 O'Reilly synthetic in my 5.7 and regret it after everything I am reading about oil and Hemis. I think I'll add some Lubegard until my next oil change and will probably go with Redline since my 34500 mile engine ticks intermittently at idle.

 

[MontanaHandyman]

Where is everyone getting their Lubegard Bio/Tech?

Amazon