Synthetic Oil

Travis8352 · Mar 13, 2024

HEMIMANN said:
This is where I'm headed.

I'm considering HPL 0W-30 all year due to the high HTHS and low NOACK. We know they're using low shear star VII polymer in it (they told us).

The bottle label even says the VII they use has a shear stability index of only 5. The lowest quality they use which is the OCP VII in their cheapest PCMO has a SSI of 26

Travis8352 · Mar 13, 2024

Burla said:
I forget, does this product have esters hpl sc 0w30?

Yes. They may be using about 10% esters. Not sure how much ANs though but the ANs are what provides the cleaning power in HPL oils

HEMIMANN · Mar 13, 2024

New thread?

'Ask Travis'

Travis8352 · Mar 13, 2024

HEMIMANN said:
New thread?

'Ask Travis'

I do know to that all of their oils contain the same amount of ester and an. How much of each i dont know but judging by the oxidation number id guess its around 10%. No clue on ANs but im assuming around 5%. Could be more to im not sure and theres no way to really know i dont think

HEMIMANN · Mar 13, 2024

Travis8352 said:
I do know to that all of their oils contain the same amount of ester and an. How much of each i dont know but judging by the oxidation number id guess its around 10%. No clue on ANs but im assuming around 5%. Could be more to im not sure and theres no way to really know i dont think

Trying to remember % ester needed in pure PAO base oil to hold additives in suspension.
A flickering synapse wants to say 5-8%?

We could ask David - not for the specific %, but if it's more than minimum amount for additive carrier, and if so, why.
My understanding is AN acts like an ester without the high cost. i.e., it's easier to alkylate napthene than it is to react an alcohol and an acid to make esters.

Burla · Mar 13, 2024

Travis8352 said:
I do know to that all of their oils contain the same amount of ester and an. How much of each i dont know but judging by the oxidation number id guess its around 10%. No clue on ANs but im assuming around 5%. Could be more to im not sure and theres no way to really know i dont think

The torch has been handed, it's your world this place needs you.

Travis8352 · Mar 13, 2024

HEMIMANN said:
Trying to remember % ester needed in pure PAO base oil to hold additives in suspension.
A flickering synapse wants to say 5-8%?

We could ask David - not for the specific %, but if it's more than minimum amount for additive carrier, and if so, why.
My understanding is AN acts like an ester without the high cost. i.e., it's easier to alkylate napthene than it is to react an alcohol and an acid to make esters.

I believe its likely 5%. How i would compare ANs to esters is they have better solubility (in general i say this as there are so many different esters) but they are not as polar as esters so they do not compete with the additive package. Mobil discussed this in a lubricant composition patent using 5% TMP ester vs 5% AN. When using the ester they could not achieve a tribofilm on the metal part but with ANs they could. I also always thought esters clean but tomnj on bitog (the ester guy of all ester guys, he spent over 40 years working with esters at HATCO. They formulated and packaged the original amzoil with al amatuzio, he was also the guy that discovered mobil moving on from PAO to group III in 2006) has said that esters do not clean but what they do is run clean. They will not leave deposits which is why they are used exclusively in jet engines. They also handle extreme temps. ANs do clean so that is likely why they are used together. Where ANs lack is VI and in cold temps and they cant handle as high of temps as esters.

HEMIMANN · Mar 13, 2024

HP Lubricants is da bomb.

I be fanboying, and I don't do fanboy.

Travis8352 · Mar 13, 2024

Also another great oil for a 6.4 hemi or hellcat if your cool enough to have one is driven DT40. Its loaded with zddp, boron, and 600 ppm moly. Lower calcium level (1700) and has a TBN of around 8. Its PAO/mPAO/POE i dont have a pds though someone woild have to ask driven for one. They will give one i have one for their FR20 oil

Burla · Mar 13, 2024

The reason I asked bout esters was to determine why possibly hpl wasnt as good as tick killing as the voodoo. Perhaps it is we just don't know it yet. Perhaps it was just bad luck the first guy didnt have success but the next 9 guys will. We just don't have the info yet. If hpl was smart, the'd toss a couple oil changes out to respected known hemi tick rams such as one hemi395, our number one test vehicle. But it is a double edge sword, because there is always that if, what if it isnt as good as other oil at killing ticks. On paper it should be, it has all the good stuff that voodoo juice has, and at least on paper it could be a hemi honey situation, especially now that we need a solution for winter months.

Travis8352 · Mar 13, 2024

Burla said:
The reason I asked bout esters was to determine why possibly hpl wasnt as good as tick killing as the voodoo. Perhaps it is we just don't know it yet. Perhaps it was just bad luck the first guy didnt have success but the next 9 guys will. We just don't have the info yet. If hpl was smart, the'd toss a couple oil changes out to respected known hemi tick rams such as one hemi395, our number one test vehicle. But it is a double edge sword, because there is always that if, what if it isnt as good as other oil at killing ticks. On paper it should be, it has all the good stuff that voodoo juice has, and at least on paper it could be a hemi honey situation, especially now that we need a solution for winter months.

BAS 5w30 could be a good oil for him to try to. Its lower in detergent like an off the shelf SP oil but they must be using some stronger detergents as the TBN is still <13.5 and i asked david if it was suitable for long drains and he said yes it works very well for long drains. It does contain more moly though as 880 ppm.

HEMIMANN · Mar 13, 2024

Burla said:
The reason I asked bout esters was to determine why possibly hpl wasnt as good as tick killing as the voodoo. Perhaps it is we just don't know it yet. Perhaps it was just bad luck the first guy didnt have success but the next 9 guys will. We just don't have the info yet. If hpl was smart, the'd toss a couple oil changes out to respected known hemi tick rams such as one hemi395, our number one test vehicle. But it is a double edge sword, because there is always that if, what if it isnt as good as other oil at killing ticks. On paper it should be, it has all the good stuff that voodoo juice has, and at least on paper it could be a hemi honey situation, especially now that we need a solution for winter months.

Wasn't that only their 0W-40?

Burla · Mar 13, 2024

huh? I thought the first guy we had run sc 0w30 didnt kill his tick, dunno if I mis remember. The main point, we need more trials or it will never take off.

HEMIMANN · Mar 13, 2024

And here I remembered Amsoil not killing ticks.

Gone are the days of easily found databases.

crackerjack1957 · Mar 13, 2024

I think Travis is referring to this:

KKBB · Mar 13, 2024

I have some HPL 0w-40 for my 6.4 that I will be trying around the first of April. Can't wait to give it a shot. I have tried PUP 0W-40...with and without lubeguard biotech. I have tried Redline 5w-30 and will now give the HPL a try.

ramffml · Mar 13, 2024

HEMIMANN said:
And here I remembered Amsoil not killing ticks.

Gone are the days of easily found databases.

To be honest, even "killing ticks" is a nightmare to define. Everybody has a different definition of "tick", starting from "I really only have a noisy valve train" all the way to "my lifter ain't even liftin no more cause the cam is dun rounded down".

I think that's why we have conflicting reports of oil not working on some but working on others. Still valuable data, best we have so not knocking the idea, just saying this can get a little inaccurate at times.

HEMIMANN · Mar 13, 2024

ramffml said:
To be honest, even "killing ticks" is a nightmare to define. Everybody has a different definition of "tick", starting from "I really only have a noisy valve train" all the way to "my lifter ain't even liftin no more cause the cam is dun rounded down".

I think that's why we have conflicting reports of oil not working on some but working on others. Still valuable data, best we have so not knocking the idea, just saying this can get a little inaccurate at times.

It's better than what the manufacturers share. Which is lie and deny.

"Hemi tick is normal!" ffs

Travis8352 · Mar 13, 2024

ramffml said:
To be honest, even "killing ticks" is a nightmare to define. Everybody has a different definition of "tick", starting from "I really only have a noisy valve train" all the way to "my lifter ain't even liftin no more cause the cam is dun rounded down".

I think that's why we have conflicting reports of oil not working on some but working on others. Still valuable data, best we have so not knocking the idea, just saying this can get a little inaccurate at times.

Some seem to be viscosity related to which perhaps could be some sort of side to side movement? We have seen torn down hemis with the body of the lifter showing wear

HEMIMANN · Mar 13, 2024

Travis8352 said:
Some seem to be viscosity related to which perhaps could be some sort of side to side movement? We have seen torn down hemis with the body of the lifter showing wear

But there's viscosity, and there's flow rate. They are inversely proportional. Higher viscosity does no good if it can't get to the part - which is where machine design comes in.

The galley and part clearances have to be wide enough for the viscosity of oil needed to keep the parts separated by the oil. If the design goofs up one or the other, the parts are underlubricated.

Which I think is the problem here. The lifter body scuffing is indicative of insufficient lubrication of the bore. Again, I'm unclear if the oil galley feeds every lifter bore, or only the MDS lifters.

Anyway, this is why I leave MDS on when dead-heading (no load), to sporadically feed the MDS lifter bores. It's also why I'm careful to balance oil viscosity to be heavy enough to lower wear but light enough to flow sufficiently to small galleys and parts. Plus low flow resistant oil filters.

Synthetic Oil

Oil of Choice

Castrol Syntec/Edge

Royal Purple

AMSOil

Valvoline Synpower

Mobil 1

Other

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