4x4 on icy mountain roads - traction control on or off?

Thinking ahead to driving my new 4x4 QC 1500 up icy mountain highways this winter (always a white knuckle drive).

Is it better to leave traction control on in 4x4 High mode - to maintain the most traction - or turn it off to avoid "the dance" that sometimes happens with TC on ice?

Also, can someone recommend the best (lightest and easy to install) chains for big tires - 35x12.5?

TC can never be turned 100% off. The off button is a lie. If you push and hold the TC off, you will get a message saying its off, off. but try and spin the tires, it will reduce the throttle response.

From someone who drives on icy mountain roads, I would leave it on and let it do it's job.

I never use chains so I can't help you there.

I may be wrong on this but i could've sworn that I read that depending how large your rims are and if you have 4x4 that you dont legally need chains????

Devin1349 said:

I may be wrong on this but i could've sworn that I read that depending how large your rims are and if you have 4x4 that you dont legally need chains????

Click to expand...

It's not the size of the rims it's the type of tire and the "stage" of chain control (R1, R2, R3-road closure). Typically Caltrans declares R2 where "chains are required on all vehicles EXCEPT 4WD vehicles with snow tires on all 4 wheels".

But I think that's bad advice. It's not snow that causes the major problems - it's ice. Black ice being the worst. 4WD doesn't help you stop or steer on ice.

I came down a steep road a couple of years ago, in 4 wheel low, with 33 inch "severe snow" rated tires. Weather wasn't that bad so I didn't think I needed the tire chains. Came around a corner and started sliding on ice under the snow. I couldn't stop or steer all the way down. Picked up speed for about 400 feet until I slammed into a Caterpillar front loader that was plowing the road at the bottom. $9k damage to my truck. I had a set of chains in the bed!

Don't want that to happen again - EVER! Chains are a PITA but necessary.

My old truck (2004) didn't have Traction Control, thus my question here.

My personal opinion is your best bet is a good set of snow tires and weight in the bed (~300 lb).

Then leave it in 2WD until you need it. 4WD helps you go, does nothing to improve stopping and if the steer tires are spinning good luck steering.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jebb said:

It's not the size of the rims it's the type of tire and the "stage" of chain control (R1, R2, R3-road closure). Typically Caltrans declares R2 where "chains are required on all vehicles EXCEPT 4WD vehicles with snow tires on all 4 wheels".

But I think that's bad advice. It's not snow that causes the major problems - it's ice. Black ice being the worst. 4WD doesn't help you stop or steer on ice.

I came down a steep road a couple of years ago, in 4 wheel low, with 33 inch "severe snow" rated tires. Weather wasn't that bad so I didn't think I needed the tire chains. Came around a corner and started sliding on ice under the snow. I couldn't stop or steer all the way down. Picked up speed for about 400 feet until I slammed into a Caterpillar front loader that was plowing the road at the bottom. $9k damage to my truck. I had a set of chains in the bed!

Don't want that to happen again - EVER! Chains are a PITA but necessary.

My old truck (2004) didn't have Traction Control, thus my question here.

Click to expand...

Actually, if only 1/3 of cars had studded snow tires, everyone on non-studded tires will benefit. I'm assuming chains will rough up the ice the same way studs will, so I'd say it's good advice.

I drive on the ice for 8 months out of the year up here, don't even have winter tires. 4wd isn't going to do **** for you once you hit ice, all it's good for is getting you up a gnarly hill if you've spun out or have to stop on it.

Chains, although unnecessary will provide very good piece of mind if you need it. Ultimately though you shouldn't need chains if you pay attention and drive to the conditions (or stop driving)

If you're at the top of a hill and don't have chains and you HAVE to get to the bottom and it's a sheet of ice... If I didn't trust my braking foot I would put it in 4lo and let it idle down the hill, and keep a set of tires in/on the shoulder.

This is just my opinion and to some people it will be completely wrong haha.

Im up in Fairbanks and we pretty much live on the moon. Driving is like driving on a hockey rink for most of the winter (about late oct-late march). I have Blizzaks on my stock wheels (off road wheels and rubber separate) and pretty much live in 4x4 with traction control all winter. The only time i take if off is when I find a nice open parking lot and wanna slosh around a bit
I suggest leaving it on, I do dance around sometimes but I feel that is a better option overall

I drive icy/snowy mountain roads regularly in the winter and always leave traction control on. It exists for a reason is pretty much my only thought on it. Never even considered turning it off.

As for chains, I have never used them on my truck so can't speak to that. But I'd say just get a good set of winter/snow tires and throw a couple hundred pounds of weight in the back and you'll be good.

Also, keep in mind the wider the tire the less stable it will be on ice. You want as much weight per square inch of footprint (which is why people are suggesting weight in the back), and with such a wide tire you are distributing your weight pretty significantly.
For instance, my tires are 9 inches wide for winter whereas the tires you listed are 12.50.
Lets assume about 3 inches of front/back footprint on both, and 500 lbs for math-sake per tire.
The 9 inch tire will have 27sq inches and the 12.50 will have 37.5sq inches.
9 inch = 18.5lbs/sq inch
12.50 = 13.3lbs/sq inch

Might not sound like a whole lot but that 5.2lb/sq inch difference is a 40% increase when going to a 9 inch tire. Obviously these weights are different since we have more than just 500 lbs but should give the idea that winter tires would be a safer alternative than the summer tires and chains IMO

dan1911 said:

Also, keep in mind the wider the tire the less stable it will be on ice. You want as much weight per square inch of footprint (which is why people are suggesting weight in the back), and with such a wide tire you are distributing your weight pretty significantly.
For instance, my tires are 9 inches wide for winter whereas the tires you listed are 12.50.
Lets assume about 3 inches of front/back footprint on both, and 500 lbs for math-sake per tire.
The 9 inch tire will have 27sq inches and the 12.50 will have 37.5sq inches.
9 inch = 18.5lbs/sq inch
12.50 = 13.3lbs/sq inch

Might not sound like a whole lot but that 5.2lb/sq inch difference is a 40% increase when going to a 9 inch tire. Obviously these weights are different since we have more than just 500 lbs but should give the idea that winter tires would be a safer alternative than the summer tires and chains IMO

Click to expand...

I understand what you're saying but I think you are overlooking something in the math. The lbs/sq inch has to be the same for either tire as they are both holding up the same weight (assuming the same tire pressure). What changes is the SHAPE of the patch. A wide tire will have a short, wide patch whereas a narrow tire will have a long, narrow patch.

Now, what slides easier on ice - a sled pushed the long way (long, narrow patch) or pushed sideways (wide, short patch)? The short, wide patch tends to bite in while the long, narrow patch tends to slide along its length. Using that logic, perhaps a narrow tire would provide better directional control but a wide tire might get better forward grip. Perhaps your 9 inch tires, as you suggest, are the best compromise.

I would keep it in 4WD to help with fish tailing especially when you take off or accelerate. I personally use tow haul mode and manually select my gears when on ice as using the engine brake is best way to slow down. When to hit brakes on ice that is what gets you. We drive ice about 6 months a year and honestly it normal for people here. Avoid brakes if at all possible and guide the vehicle do not jerk the wheel or slam in brakes. As mentioned you cannot truly turn off traction control unless you pull the fuse and I wouldn't on ice anyway as it helps keeps things straight.

drittal said:

...if the steer tires are spinning good luck steering.

Click to expand...

Yes that's true - HOWEVER in the 1500 4x4 the front axle is always being "pushed" by the truck (no freewheeling hubs). In 2WD mode the front tires have drag and can slide, rather than roll, on a slippery surface (when I had 4.56 gears this drag was REALLY noticeable). It's not like a 2WD truck, or 4WD with locking hubs, where the front tires can turn freely. If you are in 4WD in a 1500 you at least have the engine turning the front tires, overcoming that drag, and hopefully maintaining traction in the direction you want to go!

But yes, I have thought about what you say. Once you lose grip in 4WD you are SOL. Like I did on that hill.

smiley3303 said:

We drive ice about 6 months a year and honestly it normal for people here.

Click to expand...

I learned to drive in Michigan where ice was a normal part of my season as well. But it was cold, dry ice much of the winter - which has fairly good traction.

Here in the Southern California mountains the ice is often near the freezing point with a sheet of water on top. Very, VERY slippery. And the roads are steep...

Jebb said:

I learned to drive in Michigan where ice was a normal part of my season as well. But it was cold, dry ice much of the winter - which has fairly good traction.

Here in the Southern California mountains the ice is often near the freezing point with a sheet of water on top. Very, VERY slippery. And the roads are steep...

Click to expand...

I am sure it is terrible usually here what saves us is very cold temps. Ice when very cold is not too bad but that warm sort of ice sort of rain is the worst. Then adding in hills and mountains I can only imagine it is white knuckle. Easier for us to not use brakes when mostly flat land.

Jebb said:

I understand what you're saying but I think you are overlooking something in the math. The lbs/sq inch has to be the same for either tire as they are both holding up the same weight (assuming the same tire pressure). What changes is the SHAPE of the patch. A wide tire will have a short, wide patch whereas a narrow tire will have a long, narrow patch.

Now, what slides easier on ice - a sled pushed the long way (long, narrow patch) or pushed sideways (wide, short patch)? The short, wide patch tends to bite in while the long, narrow patch tends to slide along its length. Using that logic, perhaps a narrow tire would provide better directional control but a wide tire might get better forward grip. Perhaps your 9 inch tires, as you suggest, are the best compromise.

Click to expand...

Understood and excellent points! It wasn't an oversight but rather an over simplification and didnt want to delve too deep. It actually is much more in depth than that since we also have to consider tread pattern, tire deformation, among a litany of other things. It's been way too long since my physics days to recall all the equations that go into force and pressure in relation to tires, but it boils down to the fact that the increase in width is not a 1:1 scale for contact patch. Yes it is getting wider and subsequently losing its longitudinal length but it is not a 1:1 ratio since sidewall stiffness plays a major factor in that as well as overall wheel width (my summer wheels are 8.5inches whereas my winter tires are about 7 I think).

To you sled analogy, its the opposite I believe (If i am reading it right). If the narrow tire has a long contact patch it will have more surface area moving in the direction of travel and therefore have better traction but less cornering (I'm sure this changes on ice though). The wide tire should, in theory, have better cornering but will struggle with forward movement and have a higher chance of breaking contact when attempting to stop since it has less contact in the direction of travel.

All this aside, I think the rubber compound would be the determining factor since those are not equal between summer/all season/winter tires. The Blizzak compound is excellent and has microcells that are designed to stick to ice and they excel when it gets cold. In fact, driving them in temps above 40F could ruin the tread compound, and the compound is only effective for the first 50% of the tread and then it becomes a softer all season (as stated by Bridgestone). I tried to run my Toyo AT2 extremes in the winter and they are excellent summer tires, but the rubber compound is not designed for my types of winters gets way too hard to gain any traction. When accelerating, you want the tires to deform slightly and essentially contour to the ice, these summer tires get so hard there is zero deformation and its like having ice skates on. Wouldn't be so bad if i could do a hockey stop!

Anyways, this is an age old debate on wider vs narrow tires but I think there is a reason ice rally tires are typically very narrow compared to their summer counterparts. Did not mean to sound pompous, or like ****, if this is how it came out. I apologize for my initial over simplification, just be safe whatever you decide and drive safe!

Jebb said:

I learned to drive in Michigan where ice was a normal part of my season as well. But it was cold, dry ice much of the winter - which has fairly good traction.

Here in the Southern California mountains the ice is often near the freezing point with a sheet of water on top. Very, VERY slippery. And the roads are steep...

Click to expand...

Water on ice is awful! That's why I hate when they brine the roads up here, leave a thin layer of ice that is just almost frozen and makes everything worse. Hard pack at -20 is actually pretty tacky and relatively easy to drive on

I've never sled on ice. I can say on snow the skinny sled moves better because it has to push less snow. Less resistance to the forward force. The length helps applies force to keep the sled from slipping sideways. I Kind of like a ship in the water. On ice you want more lbs per inch.

Studded snow tires and chains work because those lbs are now supported by much less surface area and can dig into the ice instead of gliding on top of it.

There are numerous forces involved, but the more down force on a given area will mean more force it will take to overcome the coefficient of friction between the rubber and ice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So a lot of useful and useless info so far -
You are going to venture into the mountains and may encounter snow/ice?
1) go to the dealer and see if they recommend chains or cables for your truck.
2) once u get the chains or cables - go home and put them on at least once so you understand how to do it, and since u are in your driveway there is no stress and you can take ur time and you will now know what to expect when u actually need to put chains on and can execute the procedure with ease.
3) if in the event you do need to put ur chains/cables on- Do no Exceed 35mph!!!"
The reason is the chains and cables are not meant to travel any faster and you run the risk of them coming appart- If they come appart they can and most likely will seriously **** ur truck up.
3) chains and cables enforcement vary by state to state- check with ur dot/hwy regs to know when chains/cables are required.
4) A good set of all terrains will do you well in Snowy/Icey conditions.
In all honesty if the state decides that the weather is bad enough for 4x4 with chains is required they usually just close the road.
5) when you know u are gonna travel in bad weather to a remote area- keep a "go bag" in the truck, you know some emergency supplies, a little food/drink/sleeping bag- just best to plan for the worst.
- if you are not familiar with driving in inclimate weather conditions best advise is to just slow down- Easy on the gas and Easy on the brake, if ur truck has " Auto 4x4" Trigger it once u feel a little questionable about the road surface. if it is only 4x4 like lever or knob - Make sure u only trigger it once the road is not dry pavement. You want the tires to be able to slip and give a bit while in 4x4 HI-
Comon sense goes a long way-
This is just my advise for you and some may agree or disagree.