E85 Fuel

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SyN

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I was curious if any of U had been using this Fuel in your 5.7L?

Did some looking on You Tube! Come across MANY Positive stories and results with E85!

I live in kind of a small town where there is only supposedly E10 at the pump...
Local Loves Country Store is the only station left in town that advertises 100% Pure Gas--->This is where I fill up....

E85-->Has me very interested.
 

Burla

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It uses alcohol instead of crude as a base for the fuel. Less energy and more acid and less lubrication. Someday when the wells run out we will have to use this chit, but I wouldn't use it if there was a real gas station near buy. As the technology develops there will be additives perhaps even straight mineral oil that will help replace lubrication lost, dunno. Just an opinion from a guy with limited knowledge on the subject. I probably should look into this more, seams to have wonders for Brazil.
 
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EldoEsq

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At my local station, the E85 is the EXACT same price as 87 octane!
 
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SyN

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There is a TON of miss information out there!
Watched a few videos of users say it is made from Sugar Cane. {Who Knows} I thought is was from corn.

Gives more octane=more power but less mpg.
Keeps engine and fuel system more clean then 100% gas.

I just started interest tonight so alot to learn.

Why is it not recommended within our Hemis? NM-->Read the owners manual.... need the yellow gas cap or the E85 Label on the filler door!! Duh! Hell! I can't even use the stuff any way!! Sorry to create this thread...
 
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Burla

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You need aluminum heads and exhaust I believe (total guess) , whatever it takes there is a kit you need to run it. It may be cleaner but the fact it is acidic is horrible for piston and engine wear. There are a lot of stories on ethanol damage out there. And btw, it doesn't matter if it's corn, cane, beets or whatever, it is sugar turned into alcohol whatever the source.
 

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Check the bottom of this page where it shows what you need to change to run E85.

Look at graph that reads Required adjustments to gasoline engines to cope with different blends of ethanol fuel, To run e85 you need to change Carburetor Fuel Injection Fuel pump Fuel pressure device Fuel filter Ignition system Evaporative system Fuel tank Catalytic converter Basic engine Motor oil Intake manifold Exhaust system,

They say probably necessary, but the point is you can run it but the problem is you will do more damage quicker then using gas. So wouldn't that be the end of the discussion? With gas you don't need to change chieet.

Read this and put an end to your e85 trist brah.

Other disadvantages


Disadvantages to ethanol fuel blends when used in engines designed exclusively for gasoline include lowered fuel mileage, metal corrosion, deterioration of plastic and rubber fuel system components, clogged fuel systems, fuel injectors, and carburetors, delamination of composite fuel tanks, varnish buildup on engine parts, damaged or destroyed internal engine components, water absorption, fuel phase separation, and shortened fuel storage life.[148][148][149][150] Many major auto, marine, motorcycle, lawn equipment, generator, and other internal combustion engine manufacturers have issued warnings and precautions about the use of ethanol-blended gasolines of any type in their engines,[151] and the Federal Aviation Administration and major aviation engine manufacturers have prohibited the use of automotive gasolines blended with ethanol in light aircraft due to safety issues from fuel system and engine damage.[148][149][150][152]
 
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charonblk07

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If they sold E85 in Canada I would be running it, no question about it. Yes it gets worse fuel mileage than even blended gas, yes it absorbs moisture, and yes it will rot out old rubber fuel lines.... The engines that will see the biggest benefit are ones that are running boost or high compression that would otherwise require race gas.

But...
It has a higher octane rating (around 106 iirc) which reduces the potential for detonation (it's a poor man's race fuel); moisture can be removed from fuel using a separator system like the diesels use; our trucks don't use rubber fuel hoses, the plastic hose and fuel tank is ethanol safe. Ethanol is cleaner burning so you don't get the same carbon build up as gasoline, it also burns cooler and has an intake air charge cooling effect as well so you don't have as hot an engine

The reason the hemi isn't E85 capable is the injectors don't have a high enough flow rating but a swap to SRT4 injectors, an injector pulsewidth scaling by a CMR tuner, and a fuel pump upgrade will fix that. There are many LX cars running the E85 conversion through the hemi. A fuel pump upgrade is also a good idea as the ethanol does react with the copper accumulator wiring in the fuel pump but an aftermarket one that's ethanol friendly will flow enough fuel and not wear out.

This is the info from the LX side of the hemi world:

1. E85 Ethanol is corrosive

Yes ethanol is corrosive, but not very much. Gasoline is corrosive too. Ethanol is biodegradable in water. So it has a tendency to contain and attract water. It is not the corrosive properties of ethanol that can cause damage to your vehicle; it is the water which can rust a vehicle’s fuel system from the inside out. Today’s vehicles (since mid 1980s) have fuel systems which are made to withstand corrosive motor fuels and rust from water. Also today’s distilling processes are superior to way back when. We now have better techniques for drying out ethanol or reducing the water content.

On side note, gas contains water too. Ever hear of dry gas?

2. If I put E85 in my gas tank, it will eat it away.

If your car was built in the old days, it was had a lead coated, steel tank. The water in ethanol would cause the tank to rust from the inside out. The government mandated that all gas in the USA contain 10% ethanol to help reduce tail pipe emissions. In the 1980s, automakers made vehicles with fuel systems to be ethanol and rust tolerant. Gas tanks began to contain polymers and Teflon which are extremely durable.

3. If I put E85 ethanol in my non-Flex Fuel vehicle, it will ruin it.

One tank won’t hurt. Some dealers are spreading rumors and charging $300-$3000 for one tank of accidental E85 use. This use may cause misfiring and a rough ride. Your check engine light will come on. If you should accidentally or on purpose put E85 in your vehicle, drain the tank, put in regular gas and all will be well. If you use E85 without a conversion kit or non-Flex Fuel capable vehicle for an extended period, you can damage your engine.

4. Ethanol will burn up my engine.

Ethanol has a lower ignition point than gas. Ethanol has about 115 octane and E85 has 105 octane. It burns cooler and will extend engine life by preventing the burning of engine valves and prevent the build-up of olefins in fuel injectors, keeping the fuel system cleaner.

5. Ethanol will ruin gaskets, seals, rings and more.

Running 100% ethanol or alcohol in an engine can cause damage to cork products.

The rubber neoprene used in the last 20 + years is resistant to the drying effect that ethanol may have.

Today's vehicles are built to withstand the corrosive effects of water in ethanol and gasoline. Any vehicle built since 1985 will have no ethanol related issues. Older vehicles that used more steel in the fuel systems or cork gaskets may have issues from long term exposure to water.

Vehicles in Brazil have been using ethanol for 30 years and they are completely free from using any foreign oil.

6. E85 will eat my rubber fuel lines.

This is another myth from the old days. Rubber technology has significantly advanced so the concerns of a 20 year old car or newer having issues like this are extremely rare. Plus the 15% gas will help keep lines lubricated.

7. E85 will destroy my fuel pump.

E85 won’t destroy your fuel pump. If you convert a high mileage vehicle to Flex Fuel, the E85 will cause the sediment in the gas tank to dissolve and then get sucked up by the fuel pump. It is believed that this sediment may shorten the life of the pump of your higher mileage vehicle (100,000+). We have had no reports from customers with damaged fuel pumps.

Video Proof: E85 does not harm engine, fuel lines, fuel pump, injectors, etc.

We do not recommend using E85 in your vehicle without an E85 conversion kit.

8. It takes more than a gallon of energy to make a gallon of E85.

This was true at one point in time. Today’s advanced technology and distilling processes actually create considerably more units of ethanol than units of energy used. The processes continue to advance and the ratio will continue to increase.

9. E85 Ethanol is worse for the environment than gas.

There have been some people who have published reports stating that E85 is worse than gas for the environment. They have yet to show any scientific proof or case studies that support their claims. Because E85 is cleaner than conventional gasoline, it emits less hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and hydrogen. E85 reduces carbon monoxide emissions by as much as 70 percent — and less carbon monoxide helps reduce ozone formation and greenhouse gas levels. According to EPA, gasoline is the largest source of manmade carcinogens. Ethanol reduces overall toxic pollution by diluting harmful compounds found in gasoline such as benzene and other aromatics.

10. Using E85 ethanol will get 50% less mileage per tank.

There are some stories floating around about 50% reduction in mileage or twice as much ethanol is needed. Some of the automakers who introduced Flex vehicles did a terrible job with the fuel management systems that mileage did decrease as much as 50%. After some trial and error, the automakers have significantly improved their Flex systems and mileage conservation is within reasonable losses such as 5-15%. Conversion Kits like the Full Flex have been around for over 20 years. Realistic losses range from 5-15% as well.

11. Vehicles need more E85 ethanol so there is less power.

It is true that a vehicle does require more E85 than regular gas since the amount of energy per unit of ethanol is less than that of gas. Ethanol has a lower ignition temperature so the engine overall will run cooler increasing power. It also burns slower so instead of just burning out in one violent explosion forcing the piston down, it continues to burn the entire length of the piston stroke expanding gases more evenly and smoothly. So running E85 will give any engine more power over any pump gas. Also E85 is 105 octane. Gas comes in 85, 89 and 91 octane. The 105 octane of E85 will help to eliminate knocks and pings. All of these benefits will make an engine run smoother and quieter.

12. Won't E85 production deplete human and animal food supplies?

No, actually the production of ethanol from corn uses only the starch of the corn kernel, all of the valuable protein, minerals and nutrients remain. One bushel of corn produces about 2.7 gallons of ethanol AND 11.4 pounds of gluten feed (20% protein) AND 3 pounds of gluten meal (60% protein) AND 1.6 pounds of corn oil.

13. Ethanol does not benefit farmers.

The ethanol industry opens a new market for corn growers, allowing them to enjoy greater profitability. Studies have shown that corn prices in areas near ethanol plants tend to be 5 to 10 cents per bushel higher than in other areas. This additional income helps cut the costs of farm programs and add vitality to rural economies. The additional profit potential for farmers created by ethanol production allows more farmers to stay in business — helping ensure adequate food supplies in the future. Ethanol production also creates jobs, many of which are in rural communities where good jobs are hard to come by. A 2005 study by LECG found the ethanol industry powered the U.S. economy by creating more than 147,000 jobs, boosting U.S. household income by $4.4 billion and reducing the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143.3 million barrels of oil. Those kinds of numbers help farmers and all Americans.

14. Ethanol production wastes corn that could be used to feed a hungry world.

Corn used for ethanol production is field corn typically used to feed livestock. Wet mill ethanol production facilities, also known as corn refineries, also produce starch, corn sweeteners, and corn oil — all products that are used as food ingredients for human consumption. Ethanol production also results in the production of distiller’s grains and gluten feed — both of which are fed to livestock, helping produce high-quality meat products for distribution domestically and abroad. There is no shortage of corn. In 2004, U.S. farmers produced a record 11.8 billion bushel corn harvest — and some 1.3 billion bushels (about 11 percent) were used in ethanol production. Additionally, the 2005 crop was among the largest on record. 2007 will yield the largest corn crop since the 1940s. In other words, there is still room to significantly grow the ethanol market without limiting the availability of corn. Steadily increasing corn yields and the improved ability of other nations to grow corn also make it clear that ethanol production can continue to grow without affecting the food supply.
 

jsteinm1

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There is a TON of miss information out there!
Watched a few videos of users say it is made from Sugar Cane. {Who Knows} I thought is was from corn.

Gives more octane=more power but less mpg.
Keeps engine and fuel system more clean then 100% gas.

I just started interest tonight so alot to learn.

Why is it not recommended within our Hemis? NM-->Read the owners manual.... need the yellow gas cap or the E85 Label on the filler door!! Duh! Hell! I can't even use the stuff any way!! Sorry to create this thread...

It CAN be made from sugar cane and is more energy dense and efficient to make. Most/All ethanol in the states is made from corn right now.

Do not use it in your HEMI. The ECM is not programmed to handle it nor are the fuel lines compatible. It will damage a lot. The 4.7L is a FF vehicle made for it.

Ethanol has potential. The real potential, IMO, is when we get past Flex Fuel vehicles and start making E85 only vehicles, with a minimum content at a reasonable amount (they reduce the amount of ethanol content in the winter). Because of its high octane you can run engines at insanely high compression ratios, which you can't do if vehicles still have the option of adding 87 octane gas instead of E85. Engine efficiency is directly tied to its compression ratio. It wouldn't be unreasonable to see ratios of 16-18:1 on E85 only.

Source: mechanical engineer with some background in e85 conversion of a motorcycle engine
 

charonblk07

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Check the bottom of this page where it shows what you need to change to run E85.

Look at graph that reads Required adjustments to gasoline engines to cope with different blends of ethanol fuel, To run e85 you need to change Carburetor Fuel Injection Fuel pump Fuel pressure device Fuel filter Ignition system Evaporative system Fuel tank Catalytic converter Basic engine Motor oil Intake manifold Exhaust system,

They say probably necessary, but the point is you can run it but the problem is you will do more damage quicker then using gas. So wouldn't that be the end of the discussion? With gas you don't need to change chieet.

Read this and put an end to your e85 trist brah.

Other disadvantages


Disadvantages to ethanol fuel blends when used in engines designed exclusively for gasoline include lowered fuel mileage, metal corrosion, deterioration of plastic and rubber fuel system components, clogged fuel systems, fuel injectors, and carburetors, delamination of composite fuel tanks, varnish buildup on engine parts, damaged or destroyed internal engine components, water absorption, fuel phase separation, and shortened fuel storage life.[148][148][149][150] Many major auto, marine, motorcycle, lawn equipment, generator, and other internal combustion engine manufacturers have issued warnings and precautions about the use of ethanol-blended gasolines of any type in their engines,[151] and the Federal Aviation Administration and major aviation engine manufacturers have prohibited the use of automotive gasolines blended with ethanol in light aircraft due to safety issues from fuel system and engine damage.[148][149][150][152]

Everything you said there is accurate if you're running a vehicle that's 15-20 years or older, or a marine or 2-stroke engine. Ethanol use needs to be looked at on a vehicle by vehicle basis, in the case of our trucks minor modification is required to run it with little to no issues.
 

charonblk07

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Do not use it in your HEMI. The ECM is not programmed to handle it nor are the fuel lines compatible. It will damage a lot. The 4.7L is a FF vehicle made for it.

Our nylon/plastic fuel lines will handle E85 just fine, it's the same material used in the LX cars that are running it. The ideal fuel line is one that's PTEF lined and that can be installed easily if you are paranoid about the fuel lines.

Because of its high octane you can run engines at insanely high compression ratios, which you can't do if vehicles still have the option of adding 87 octane gas instead of E85. Engine efficiency is directly tied to its compression ratio. It wouldn't be unreasonable to see ratios of 16-18:1 on E85 only.

Just because you might love to see this: have a look at a Duke axial engine concept, that is an engine that would be amazing with an ethanol fuel since it doesn't suffer from detonation issues like a valved engine does and can currently run a 14:1 CR on 91 octane pump gas.
 

charonblk07

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That comes from a business that has in interest in selling e85.

They wont be paying for your engine when it breaks down either.

Nobody but me is paying for my vehicle when it breaks down and it doesn't need ethanol fuel to do that these days anyway :crazy:. My engine is a perfect example of one that would benefit from E85 (if it was sold in Canada); I'm not talking about a stock hemi doing the conversion for the sake of doing the conversion, there is REAL gains to be had on a modified engine that is looking for more performance without paying 13/gal for race fuel.

e85....Can Someone Please Explain

If someone wanted to do the swap for performance reasons it's a fairly simple and cheap swap to do but there aren't any gains just doing it on a stock engine.
 
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SyN

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Thanks for ALL your info and advice! Like I said! I had no knowledge of E85 before-->until tonght... Also E85 is not even available here yet! So no worries about even using it...

I really now have no intentions on using it... I will just keep filling up at the Local Loves...

This Ethanol subject gets ugly within alot of places on the internet.... Esp E15!

Thanks again Fellas!
 

Burla

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I don't think it is ugly here, just good conversation.:love51:
 
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charonblk07

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EPA Acknowledges Ethanol Damages Engines

wow, what it must of took to get the EPA to admit that, lol. Monday, April 21, 2014

You did rear that, right? It's about the effects of E15 on motorcycles

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has publicly acknowledged that ethanol in gasoline can damage internal combustion engines by increasing exhaust temperatures and indirectly causing component failures, the American Motorcyclist Association reports.

...

"In motorcycles and non-road products [using E15 and higher ethanol blends], EPA raised engine-failure concerns from overheating."

Now, have a look at where they were taking their information from
E15: Frequently Asked Questions | E15 (a blend of gasoline and ethanol) | Fuels & Fuel Additives | US EPA

What is E15?

E15 is a blend of gasoline and up to 15 vol% ethanol. Prior to EPA's October waiver decision, the amount of ethanol in motor vehicle gasoline was limited to 10 vol% (E10). E10 was granted a waiver under Clean Air Act section 211(f)(4) more than 30 years ago and is now ubiquitous in the marketplace, making up over 90% of the U.S. gasoline market.

The primary source of ethanol is corn, but other grains or biomass sources may be used as feedstocks.

What Vehicles May Use E15?

Flexible-fuel vehicles (FFVs)
MY2001 and newer cars
MY2001 and newer light-duty trucks
MY2001 and newer medium-duty passenger vehicles (SUVs)

What Vehicles and Engines May Not Use E15?

All motorcycles
All vehicles with heavy-duty engines, such as school buses, transit buses, and delivery trucks
All off-road vehicles, such as boats and snowmobiles
All engines in off-road equipment, such as lawnmowers and chain saws
All MY2000 and older cars, light-duty trucks, and medium-duty passenger vehicles (SUVs)
 
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SyN

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Burla

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I wish I could put 5 likes on that post Syn.
 
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