Maxtrac Coil Springs Losing Height Because of Leverage?

[CheechDogg.0n37s]

So last year in September I contacted MaxTrac Tech Support because my front end lost some height front when I first got the 7" lift kit installed. I did understand that with time the springs would settle as expected and at this point it has lost an inch and 1/4 since then.

My front sits at 43.75" and the rear at 45" ... the rear has not lost any height but the front has ...

So MaxTrac Tech Support asked me for pictures of the "front spindles, rear coils, spacers, shocks, brackets, etc." ... which I sent them the pictures ....

I didn't get a response from them until 1/8/2021 and they said that I never sent them the pictures they requested, so I sent them again.

Today I got another email in which they asked for the "size wheels and tires, also the backspacing of my wheels".

So I sent them the requested information which is 20x12 wheels with 37 inch tires and a 4.77 backspacing with a -44 offset and asked them "What does the size of wheels, tires and back spacing have to do with the front end being much lower now ?"

The guy responded with:


I asked you about wheels and back spacing because "Deep dish" wheels are very problematic on these trucks. With the recommended wheel/tire set up, your suspension still maintains its factory 2:1 ratio. When you install a wheel that is wider than what we recommend and sticks out excessively, it changes the ratio of your suspension. Instead of a 2:1 ratio, your suspension now has a 2.5:1 or 3:1 ratio, which increases leverage on the coil, causing it to compress more and give less lift than intended. A 20 x 12 with 4.77" back spacing is what is causing your front end to sag. It has applied more leverage to the coil, lowering your ride height. Unfortunately, this voids our warranty and I highly recommend switching to a different wheel/tire combo. The suspension components on a Ram 1500 were never designed for the stress that wheel adds to them and can/will cause premature failure of factory and aftermarket suspension parts.
Thank you,


Does anyone agree with the response they gave me and if you go look on their site it says 4.5 to 5.75 of backspacing ... my wheels have a 4.77 backspacing lol ... how does that void the warranty? Took them over 4 months to give me an answer which contradicts what they have up on their site... or am I not reading this correctly? lol ...

So for anyone who is thinking about getting a MaxTrac lift kit according to their recommendations their springs will not hold up if you use wheels that have 4.77 of backspacing when the clearly state that a 4.5-5.75 backspacing is recommended.

So if your front end is losing height according to them wider wheels that stick out "excessively" changes the ratio of the suspension from the 2:1 ratio to a 2.5:1 or "3.1" ratio which increases the leverage of the coils causing the front end to sag .... WHAT ! ....

Below is what is posted on their site.

So I guess I will need a higher rated set of coil springs for the front or add the 1" coil spacer now? ...

Now don't get me wrong you guys I am not bashing the lift kit, I love my MaxTrac lift kit and I always let everyone know about how good of a lift kit it is, but this response from them just doesn't make any sense.

However, the owner of the shop where I got my lift kit did agree with the response they gave me but to say the warranty is completely voided because of the 4.77 backspacing is just BS lol ....

So be careful of what wheel set up you guys put on your trucks with this liftkit because according to them it will definitely void the warranty.


NOTES:

• Track width increase of 1" per side
• 17" Wheel or larger w/ 4 1/2 - 5 3/4 " Backspacing
• Wheel width 8-9.5
• Will Clear up to a 37" x 12.50 tires
• P/N: 612400 required for vehicles with 2-piece

This kit comes with:

P/N: 702145 4.5" LIFT SPINDLES W/ EXTENDED BRAKE LINES DOT COMPLIANT

P/N: 872171F 2.5" FRONT COILS & FRONT FOX SHOCKS

P/N: 902445F 3" COILS, 1.5" SPACERS, TRACK/SWAY BRKTS, FOX SHOCKS

WARNING:
MAXTRAC SUSPENSION DOES NOT ADVISE USING WHEELS WIDER THAN 9" OR WHEELS WITH LESS THAN 4.5" BACKSPACING. DOING SO WILL RESULT IN VOIDING ANY AND ALL MANUFACTURER WARRANTIES

 

[RedSRT4Me]

So last year in September I contacted MaxTrac Tech Support because my front end lost some height front when I first got the 7" lift kit installed. I did understand that with time the springs would settle as expected and at this point it has lost an inch and 1/4 since then.

My front sits at 43.75" and the rear at 45" ... the rear has not lost any height but the front has ...

So MaxTrac Tech Support asked me for pictures of the "front spindles, rear coils, spacers, shocks, brackets, etc." ... which I sent them the pictures ....

I didn't get a response from them until 1/8/2021 and they said that I never sent them the pictures they requested, so I sent them again.

Today I got another email in which they asked for the "size wheels and tires, also the backspacing of my wheels".

So I sent them the requested information which is 20x12 wheels with 37 inch tires and a 4.77 backspacing with a -44 offset and asked them "What does the size of wheels, tires and back spacing have to do with the front end being much lower now ?"

The guy responded with:


I asked you about wheels and back spacing because "Deep dish" wheels are very problematic on these trucks. With the recommended wheel/tire set up, your suspension still maintains its factory 2:1 ratio. When you install a wheel that is wider than what we recommend and sticks out excessively, it changes the ratio of your suspension. Instead of a 2:1 ratio, your suspension now has a 2.5:1 or 3:1 ratio, which increases leverage on the coil, causing it to compress more and give less lift than intended. A 20 x 12 with 4.77" back spacing is what is causing your front end to sag. It has applied more leverage to the coil, lowering your ride height. Unfortunately, this voids our warranty and I highly recommend switching to a different wheel/tire combo. The suspension components on a Ram 1500 were never designed for the stress that wheel adds to them and can/will cause premature failure of factory and aftermarket suspension parts.
Thank you,


Does anyone agree with the response they gave me and if you go look on their site it says 4.5 to 5.75 of backspacing ... my wheels have a 4.77 backspacing lol ... how does that void the warranty? Took them over 4 months to give me an answer which contradicts what they have up on their site... or am I not reading this correctly? lol ...

So for anyone who is thinking about getting a MaxTrac lift kit according to their recommendations their springs will not hold up if you use wheels that have 4.77 of backspacing when the clearly state that a 4.5-5.75 backspacing is recommended.

So if your front end is losing height according to them wider wheels that stick out "excessively" changes the ratio of the suspension from the 2:1 ratio to a 2.5:1 or "3.1" ratio which increases the leverage of the coils causing the front end to sag .... WHAT ! ....

Below is what is posted on their site.

So I guess I will need a higher rated set of coil springs for the front or add the 1" coil spacer now? ...

Now don't get me wrong you guys I am not bashing the lift kit, I love my MaxTrac lift kit and I always let everyone know about how good of a lift kit it is, but this response from them just doesn't make any sense.

However, the owner of the shop where I got my lift kit did agree with the response they gave me but to say the warranty is completely voided because of the 4.77 backspacing is just BS lol ....

So be careful of what wheel set up you guys put on your trucks with this liftkit because according to them it will definitely void the warranty.


NOTES:

• Track width increase of 1" per side
• 17" Wheel or larger w/ 4 1/2 - 5 3/4 " Backspacing
• Wheel width 8-9.5
• Will Clear up to a 37" x 12.50 tires
• P/N: 612400 required for vehicles with 2-piece

This kit comes with:

P/N: 702145 4.5" LIFT SPINDLES W/ EXTENDED BRAKE LINES DOT COMPLIANT

P/N: 872171F 2.5" FRONT COILS & FRONT FOX SHOCKS

P/N: 902445F 3" COILS, 1.5" SPACERS, TRACK/SWAY BRKTS, FOX SHOCKS

WARNING:
MAXTRAC SUSPENSION DOES NOT ADVISE USING WHEELS WIDER THAN 9" OR WHEELS WITH LESS THAN 4.5" BACKSPACING. DOING SO WILL RESULT IN VOIDING ANY AND ALL MANUFACTURER WARRANTIES

Well I guess when I break it I won't waste my time with warranty ******** if that guy is working there.

Dirt king and 2wd coilover conversion will be my next stop.

 

[crazykid1994]

That sounds like bologna to me.

 

[stimpy433]

I can see the problems it could create. It's lust like putting a longer handle on which would increase the leverage on the spring itself. The farther out the wheel sits the easier it is to compress the spring. Can't see them voiding the whole warranty or if so, they should put a giant disclaimer at the top of the instructions!!!

 

[CheechDogg.0n37s]

I can see the problems it could create. It's lust like putting a longer handle on which would increase the leverage on the spring itself. The farther out the wheel sits the easier it is to compress the spring. Can't see them voiding the whole warranty or if so, they should put a giant disclaimer at the top of the instructions!!!

Exactly ...so now I have to find a coil spring with a higher spring rate or finally add that 1 or 2 inch coil spring spacer to level it out ....

 

[G-Ride990]

Something seems off here. A question I have seen discussed quite a bit on road racing forums is, "does a wider tire lower spring rate?" which is what MaxTrac is saying right? More leverage on the suspension? In which, the overwhelming answer is no since wheels and tires are unsprung weight. Extra corner grip from wider wheels can lead to wanting increased sway bar action and spring rate but not the wider wheels themselves.

Not trying to get into an argument here, just thinking outloud.

And based on your back spacing, I would try to contact them by phone and call *********. They are a site sponsor here too.

@Maxtrac Suspension

 

[crazykid1994]

It sounds like they are saying the wider track is adding leverage to the suspension causing the issue but your lower control arm is actually your leverage point. That’s where your pivots are as well as your spring. I’m not an engineer by any means but I am calling BS. The lower control arm converts the suspension load to the spring at a fixed position. Wider track does not adjust that fixed position. a solid axle is a different animal because a wider track pushes your leverage away from the spring perch which changes your suspension feel.

 

[CheechDogg.0n37s]

That is exactly what I am thinking and am being told not just here but from a few shops I have called and asked in the area ....

 

[CheechDogg.0n37s]

I just hit up the person handling their Instagram account and gave him the link to this thread so he can read it ... Not one person that does lifts agrees with what this guy says in that email response ....

 

[CheechDogg.0n37s]

This is the crap I hate with companies, poor customer service and the fact that they "will" straight up lie to you about something especially when it comes to warranty issues ....

I am looking at trucks on custom offsets and on instragram to see if anyone of those trucks are sagging in the front and if they have similiar wheel setups as mine ...and guess what they almost all have wheels with -44 offsets and backspacings over 4.5"

This really sucks because there has never been a negative comment I have said regarding MaxTrac ... but not this has to raise a serious question about their springs ability to withstand the weight right?

 

[ram1500rsm]

Found this article that talks about the effects of motion ratio. it seems there is a relation i just don't know that it could be substantial to affect spring rate that much to make your truck lose 1.25" of lift ? little drastic for them to void the warranty cause the wheel offset is 1/8 off.
https://ismasupers.com/downloads/tech-talk/Tech-01 Motion ratios-4.pdf

When i've measured motion ratio (mostly for shock valving) i've always measured from the eye of my lower control arms to the lower shock mounting point, and to the lower BJ. In our trucks with stock lowers the motion ratio is typically 1.6. This is why when you add a little 1/4 top spacer you end up roughly with 1/2" lift



This is from an article i found that talk about the suspension on the DT trucks, same principle
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/06/10/ram-1500-suspension-deep-dive/

 

[chri5k]

The diagram above explains part of the equation. The total length of the "arm" acting on the spring does not end at the ball joint. The weight of the vehicle is carried over the centerline of the wheel. The distance between the ball joint and the wheel center line must be added together to get the total length of the "arm" acting on the spring. Negative offset wheels move the wheel center line further out from the ball joint which increases the length of the "arm" acting on the spring.

This is the increased leverage acting on the spring the MaxTrac representative is talking about in the OP.

 

[CheechDogg.0n37s]

The diagram above explains part of the equation. The total length of the "arm" acting on the spring does not end at the ball joint. The weight of the vehicle is carried over the centerline of the wheel. The distance between the ball joint and the wheel center line must be added together to get the total length of the "arm" acting on the spring. Negative offset wheels move the wheel center line further out from the ball joint which increases the length of the "arm" acting on the spring.

This is the increased leverage acting on the spring the MaxTrac representative is talking about in the OP.

Might be so, but I just talked to someone from CST who also makes lift kits for Ram 1500s and they said there is no way my wheel setup will cause a loss of 1" to 2" because of that leverage ...

 

[CheechDogg.0n37s]

Just had one shop owner say "take a look at your truck's front end and see if it looks bowed ... look at the springs as well ... do they look arced, bowed? That is what the leverage would do if that was true"

So I take a look and it doesn't look like that ... hell @the_goodguy07 has the 7" MaxTrac lift with 10" wheels and his truck is also sagging lol now ... and his offset is no where near the -44 as mine and the backspacing is probably close to mine ....

 

[chri5k]

Might be so, but I just talked to someone from CST who also makes lift kits for Ram 1500s and they said there is no way my wheel setup will cause a loss of 1" to 2" because of that leverage ...

I don't know the answer to how much the increased leverage would affect ride height, I was only saying the "arm" or leverage acting on the spring does increase with negative offset wheels. The calculations can be very complex when dealing with coil springs and even more so if they are variable rate springs.

Though I would say the changes in ratio the OP wrote seem pretty dramatic to be attributed to just wheel offset.

 

[ram1500rsm]

Just had one shop owner say "take a look at your truck's front end and see if it looks bowed ... look at the springs as well ... do they look arced, bowed? That is what the leverage would do if that was true"

So I take a look and it doesn't look like that ... hell @the_goodguy07 has the 7" MaxTrac lift with 10" wheels and his truck is also sagging lol now ... and his offset is no where near the -44 as mine and the backspacing is probably close to mine ....

While i'm sure there is a relation between offset and spring motion rate, it should not be enogh to warrant the loss of a full inch. Do you think if you ask Maxtrac they'll give you the spring rate and free lenght on their springs ? ask CST about the same. If CST is higher/longer then that could be your ticket to a little bump up in your lift without having to resort to spacers.

 

[CheechDogg.0n37s]

So @the_goodguy07 has the Hardrock H100s which are 20x9 with a 0 offset and a backspacing of 5" ... His truck is also now sagging up front .... Yes I know that the springs will settle with time but to have a 1" to 2" height loss is not good ...

 

[CheechDogg.0n37s]

While i'm sure there is a relation between offset and spring motion rate, it should not be enogh to warrant the loss of a full inch. Do you think if you ask Maxtrac they'll give you the spring rate and free lenght on their springs ? ask CST about the same. If CST is higher/longer then that could be your ticket to a little bump up in your lift without having to resort to spacers.

MaxTrac rep did give me 1100 lbs/inch for the spring rate ... I will ask about the free lenght and then ask CST the same ..

 

[CheechDogg.0n37s]

While i'm sure there is a relation between offset and spring motion rate, it should not be enogh to warrant the loss of a full inch. Do you think if you ask Maxtrac they'll give you the spring rate and free lenght on their springs ? ask CST about the same. If CST is higher/longer then that could be your ticket to a little bump up in your lift without having to resort to spacers.

View attachment 235278

LOL ! So just got off the phone with CST and the rep guy completely LOLed at what I told him MaxTrac said ... there is no way in hell that the leverage he is talking about will cause the springs to lose that much height ...he said maybe and a big maybe 1/4" if that with regular settling ... he straight up said its the Chinese bs springs they have and that is why CST springs cost more, you get what you paid for is what he said lol ...

I asked him about the spring rate and free lenght but he didn't have it off hand , he will get it for me though ...

 

[ram1500rsm]

MaxTrac rep did give me 1100 lbs/inch for the spring rate ... I will ask about the free lenght and then ask CST the same ..

Damn that's very high, i wonder if that is the total from both springs combined so each side will be 550lbs/inch ?