ZF 8 Speed Transmission Replacement Fluid Poll

[Burla]

When it came time to service your 8 speed, what fluid did you use and how did it work out? The first three choices have the correct viscosity the zf asks for, it is a thin oil with low shear, which is what they were trying to accomplish. Thinner then atf4, but the reason they use pao base fluid was so the viscosity would not drop and have better hot and cold performance. Now, that is what fca and zf goals are, what I am curious about is what works and what doesn't. We probably should have done this a long time ago, sorry about that. But let's do it now, what fluid works and what fluids don't work in your zf8 transmision??

I know Sean on eco diesel youtube used Amsoil and Valvoline which are not the same viscosity as the OEM, and he was fairly satisfied as I remember.

The bottom of the poll was just a question if it worked good for you or not. Let's just post accurate info, if something didn't work, PLEASE post it.

 

[Burla]

 

[tidefan1967]

Hopefully Verndiesel chimes in. As I recall last time he posted he was past 500K miles on nothing but 100K mile Valvoline Maxlife changes. I know he was on his 2nd engine but the tranny was all original which is beyond impressive since we're talking about his running some of the cheapest trans fluid that's available, going well past the manufacturer's recommended change interval(like 60-70K miles in his case?)and most of those miles were towing heavy loads. Totally insane!

 

[Tim Garceau]

What’s my viscosity?

 

[TheEnder]

Hopefully Verndiesel chimes in. As I recall last time he posted he was past 500K miles on nothing but 100K mile Valvoline Maxlife changes. I know he was on his 2nd engine but the tranny was all original which is beyond impressive since we're talking about his running some of the cheapest trans fluid that's available, going well past the manufacturer's recommended change interval(like 60-70K miles in his case?)and most of those miles were towing heavy loads. Totally insane!

The 8 speed doesn’t get its reputation as the most reliable and efficient automatic in production for no reason. They’re amazing transmissions, behind the 3.6L Pentastar it’s a literal dream drivetrain.


Sent from RAM

 

[TC]

Drained 6 quarts of original transmission fluid and replaced filter pan at 80,000 miles. Replaced fluid with 6 quarts of Amsoil Blue cap OE Fuel Efficient ATF fluid. 5,000 miles later runs and shifts smoother than ever.

Drained and filled Transfer Case 44-44 with 2 quarts Amsoil Red cap OE MV ATF. Have not used 4X4 since so no clue as to its performance.

 

[Hemi1978]

This comes up more and more often lately as ZF transmissions find their way into more and more vehicles. The arguments are abundant. There is a pretty informative video on this subject. Its long but if you skip to section 2 fluids it has a chart showing the specs from several different fluids.

 

[EdGs]

Ordered a Mopar pan and 7 qts, Mopar fluid from RockAuto (I know, I paid more and have to change pan again next time, but felt better going with OE).

D-day is next weekend, barring any of life's unforseen circumstances.

 

[Different Drummer]

Ordered a Mopar pan and 7 qts, Mopar fluid from RockAuto (I know, I paid more and have to change pan again next time, but felt better going with OE).

D-day is next weekend, barring any of life's unforseen circumstances.

Please give us mileage and what you find inside the pan when you do it. i.e. what the magnets have collected.
Maybe you would like to be the first to cut open the filter section and report on what you find.

 

[EdGs]

Mileage is 107k, had 28.6k when I bought it.

No towing, does not even have a hitch. I have only had approx 400lbs in the bed maybe 4 or 5 times.

I will have to check the display, but I believe the trans runs around 190 when its hot.

Can dissect the filter for sure.

 

[Different Drummer]

I did find a VOA of LG 8. Boron, Calcium and Phosphorous are the main additives as probably expected. Calcium and Phosphorous in near equal amounts. I thought it interesting that for such a " you must use this" fluid that the Cst @ 100*C was 5.48, on the lower side of what is apparently considered acceptable range of 5.1 - 7.9.
Also, on the ZF engineering page they call ZF 8 a "semi-synthetic" fluid. We have no way of knowing just what percentage of the whole is a PAO based fluid. If any at all in fact.
In the video I posted on another thread where they use the Baguette analogy, the two ZF Reps. seem to make a big deal about the additive package being what makes the fluid magical. More so than what their base stock may be.

 

[chrisbh17]

I did find a VOA of LG 8. Boron, Calcium and Phosphorous are the main additives as probably expected. Calcium and Phosphorous in near equal amounts. I thought it interesting that for such a " you must use this" fluid that the Cst @ 100*C was 5.48, on the lower side of what is apparently considered acceptable range of 5.1 - 7.9.
Also, on the ZF engineering page they call ZF 8 a "semi-synthetic" fluid. We have no way of knowing just what percentage of the whole is a PAO based fluid. If any at all in fact.
In the video I posted on another thread where they use the Baguette analogy, the two ZF Reps. seem to make a big deal about the additive package being what makes the fluid magical. More so than what their base stock may be.

But does a normal VOA pick up the additives that would be in transmission fluid?

Thats been the biggest question mark over at BITOG. Yeah we can compare a VOA of trans fluid X to trans fluid Y, and yeah we can read the standard things like boron, calcium, etc. But are there other things that are used in transmission fluid that a ****** or used oil analysis doesnt read or test for?

My guess is yes, there are things in each trans fluid that we cannot see, therefore we cannot make a 100% certain determination from a VOA or UOA.

It would be one thing if Mopar were sitting here telling us their trans fluid is the only thing that can be used, proprietary, etc. But ZF makes a lot of transmissions, and good ones at that....I would tend to believe in their science to use their fluid.

 

[Different Drummer]

But does a normal VOA pick up the additives that would be in transmission fluid?

Thats been the biggest question mark over at BITOG. Yeah we can compare a VOA of trans fluid X to trans fluid Y, and yeah we can read the standard things like boron, calcium, etc. But are there other things that are used in transmission fluid that a ****** or used oil analysis doesnt read or test for?

My guess is yes, there are things in each trans fluid that we cannot see, therefore we cannot make a 100% certain determination from a VOA or UOA.

It would be one thing if Mopar were sitting here telling us their trans fluid is the only thing that can be used, proprietary, etc. But ZF makes a lot of transmissions, and good ones at that....I would tend to believe in their science to use their fluid.

Very reasonable point to make. Honestly, I for one cannot say what might be added by any lubricant manufacturer to their magical potion that is NOT detected in the usual analysis process. The chemistry may go far beyond our discussions. And, of course if there is something that is proprietary to their fluid they will not divulge it. All of this while suspecting and dealing with possible marketing ploys. I tend to be a bit on the cynical side at times.
I guess the best we can do is try to come to reasonable conclusions based on the information available in VOA's , UOA's, Material safety data sheets etc. And of course real world experiences of others who have boldly ventured ahead by using alternative products.
The goal IMO is not only to find more cost effective alternatives , but to also investigate the possibility of a better product being available. If lucky we might kill two birds with one stone.

 

[chrisbh17]

Very reasonable point to make. Honestly, I for one cannot say what might be added by any lubricant manufacturer to their magical potion that is NOT detected in the usual analysis process. The chemistry may go far beyond our discussions. And, of course if there is something that is proprietary to their fluid they will not divulge it. All of this while suspecting and dealing with possible marketing ploys. I tend to be a bit on the cynical side at times.
I guess the best we can do is try to come to reasonable conclusions based on the information available in VOA's , UOA's, Material safety data sheets etc. And of course real world experiences of others who have boldly ventured ahead by using alternative products.
The goal IMO is not only to find more cost effective alternatives , but to also investigate the possibility of a better product being available. If lucky we might kill two birds with one stone.

I am as cynical as they come, especially in regards to automatic transmission maintenance. Ive been a "victim" of several different failed designs/implementations over the years, to the point that I was deathly worried about buying the RAM because of the 8 speed.

I love the idea of MaxLife ATF - kinda a one size fits all. But OTOH, how is that possible? Maybe it really is true but I still cant figure out how a company can magically get the same fluid certified for an application that only showed up years after the fluid was made. is it possible to modify a fluid each time just enough to get the new cert without affecting any old certs? Sorry but Im more cynical about that than I am the required ZF/Mopar fluid.

The same goes for most other aftermarket ATFs. Unless we've been lied to with multiple required certifications (Honda DW/Z1, Nissan Matic J through S, etc) something doesnt feel right when a single fluid can cover so many things.

The MSDS is a good point...I believe you can read into it and get an idea of how much PAO is in a product, depending on how the MSDS is written. Ive never looked for one for the ZF/Mopar fluid, might be an interesting read.

EDIT: checked the ZF Lifeguard 8 MSDS. 0-90% of it it this:

"Interchangeable low viscosity base oil (<20,5 cSt @40°C) *"

The asterisk shows:

"* contains one or more of the following CAS-numbers: 64742-53-6, 64742-54-7, 64742-55-8, 64742-56-9, 64742-65-0, 68037-01-4, 72623-86-0, 72623-87-1, 8042-47-5, 848301-69-9, 68649-12-7, 151006-60-9, 163149-28-8"

So the answer is most likely in that list, I did not look up individual ones yet.

 

[Different Drummer]

I am as cynical as they come, especially in regards to automatic transmission maintenance. Ive been a "victim" of several different failed designs/implementations over the years, to the point that I was deathly worried about buying the RAM because of the 8 speed.

I love the idea of MaxLife ATF - kinda a one size fits all. But OTOH, how is that possible? Maybe it really is true but I still cant figure out how a company can magically get the same fluid certified for an application that only showed up years after the fluid was made. is it possible to modify a fluid each time just enough to get the new cert without affecting any old certs? Sorry but Im more cynical about that than I am the required ZF/Mopar fluid.

The same goes for most other aftermarket ATFs. Unless we've been lied to with multiple required certifications (Honda DW/Z1, Nissan Matic J through S, etc) something doesnt feel right when a single fluid can cover so many things.

The MSDS is a good point...I believe you can read into it and get an idea of how much PAO is in a product, depending on how the MSDS is written. Ive never looked for one for the ZF/Mopar fluid, might be an interesting read.

EDIT: checked the ZF Lifeguard 8 MSDS. 0-90% of it it this:

"Interchangeable low viscosity base oil (<20,5 cSt @40°C) *"

The asterisk shows:

"* contains one or more of the following CAS-numbers: 64742-53-6, 64742-54-7, 64742-55-8, 64742-56-9, 64742-65-0, 68037-01-4, 72623-86-0, 72623-87-1, 8042-47-5, 848301-69-9, 68649-12-7, 151006-60-9, 163149-28-8"

So the answer is most likely in that list, I did not look up individual ones yet.

Just want to be clear, I was pretty much agreeing with your post #12.
Us cynics ask questions seeking answers.
However, the answers cannot be found if there is no search for them.

 

[chrisbh17]

Just want to be clear, I was pretty much agreeing with your post #12.
Us cynics ask questions seeking answers.
However, the answers cannot be found if there is no search for them.

No worries, didnt mean to come off like I was defending

To me, since I wouldnt be changing the trans fluid that often anyway, I would just buy the "real deal" stuff and use it. I also dont put my truck through a lot (no towing, etc). I have MaxCare Lifetime as well, so if the fluid were ever to be changed, I would pretty much want OEM in hopes of maintaining that contract (since, technically, the fluid should never be changed....does changing it void the contract?)

 

[Different Drummer]

I understand.
This whole transmission fluid subject to me is sort of like tires when it comes to the money thing.
I don't consider price and mileage obtainability with tires as much as I do comfort, quietness, wet traction and above all safety. I often used tires on my motorcycles that were pretty expensive and would wear rather fast. But they were a very small contact patch to get adhesion to the pavement. Especially on wet roads.

If I had conclusive irrefutable evidence that ZF or the MOPAR fluid did in fact have some formulation that makes it superior and absolutely necessary for the health and longevity of ZF 8 transmissions I certainly would use it regardless of the cost.
However, what I have is a car manufacturer and transmission manufacturer basically saying, take what we say as gospel. How much of that is marketing strategy? Now remember, we are both self proclaimed cynics.
I have heard for years from numerous manufactures, " You must use OEM oil filters". My BMW motorcycles were famous for this. I believe that I have found more efficient oil filters to use throughout the years in all of my vehicles. And yes, I sometimes paid more for the non OEM filters.
Same rationale works within me in regards to the transmission fluid.
My search for the facts continues.

 

[MRFREEZE57]

I did a change on my 8 speed last week, replaced plastic with a PPE pan, took only about 6 1/2 quarts of redline D6 to be correct idling while level and 100 deg. shifts just as good as before. am planning after about 500 miles do another drain and fill to get more of the old stuff out, not sure how much it takes when dry. old fluid a bit dark and green. one thing about the PPE pan is the drain plug is so easy to get to, not right under the exhaust like the oem pan. had 49k miles on it and after a good exchange with the D6 will not be afraid to run it maybe 80k or more.

 

[Different Drummer]

I did a change on my 8 speed last week, replaced plastic with a PPE pan, took only about 6 1/2 quarts of redline D6 to be correct idling while level and 100 deg. shifts just as good as before. am planning after about 500 miles do another drain and fill to get more of the old stuff out, not sure how much it takes when dry. old fluid a bit dark and green. one thing about the PPE pan is the drain plug is so easy to get to, not right under the exhaust like the oem pan. had 49k miles on it and after a good exchange with the D6 will not be afraid to run it maybe 80k or more.

Your plan on changing filter and fluid, then doing a short interval fluid only change and then going the recommended distance for next fluid / filter change is exactly what I have in mind.
Fortunately for me, having the V6 there are no obstructions whatsoever under the pan.

 

[Different Drummer]

I did a change on my 8 speed last week, replaced plastic with a PPE pan, took only about 6 1/2 quarts of redline D6 to be correct idling while level and 100 deg. shifts just as good as before. am planning after about 500 miles do another drain and fill to get more of the old stuff out, not sure how much it takes when dry. old fluid a bit dark and green. one thing about the PPE pan is the drain plug is so easy to get to, not right under the exhaust like the oem pan. had 49k miles on it and after a good exchange with the D6 will not be afraid to run it maybe 80k or more.

Did you find anything in regards to wear in or assembly materials in the pan? Much gray ****** on the magnets? Any chance you cut the filter portion open? I would love to know what the inside of the filter looks like in regards to construction, as well as how much foreign material it held.