What if Ram/Cummins end relationship?

[SouthTexan]

Yes, but most marine engines turn faster than their on highway counterparts. And the governed limits of the Cummins engines over here have more to due with emissions certifications which are tougher here in the US. Since Cummins does not know what type of vehicle the engine will go in or what type of intake/emissions system will be on the vehicle, they have to do an engine dyno emissions certification instead of a chassis dyno emissions certification.

The fact is that due to its longer stroke ratio, it will never make the horsepower the Cummins will make reliably. Not only that, but it has a narrower torque curve than the Cummins (again due to its bore/stroke ratio) making the engine loose a lot of its torque by the time it reaches peak horsepower. This is a characteristic of an under square engine. The Cummins on the other hand has a much flatter curve retain a lot of it torque through out its power-band and having a higher safe reliable rev limit to create more horsepower.

 

[drittal]

Let's say Ram does drop, but when they do the replacement has a sexy new name and is first diesel to 1000ftlbs but same HP rating as current cummins.

Would that ease fall out? Attract new customers or those waiting on the next torque war winner? Would the average Joe care if the curve wasn't as broad or 100-200 less Rpm when it is the first to 1k?

Just spit balling here...

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[SouthTexan]

I wouldn't. As I said before, my last Ram would be the one I own the day they drop Cummins.


If this Iveco engine at least met my power expectations for what I need my engine to do, then the next hurtle(actually the major hurtle) would be reliability. Not the kind of talked about in marketing, but the millions of miles and decades of driving the same American roads I drive pulling the same loads I pull without fail kind of reliability. The kind of reliability Cummins built a reputation on. You can't get that in a few years on the market. If it has proven itself down the road, then maybe but that is a very dismal maybe and more of a sympathy maybe.

I would more than likely just switch truck brands. There are things I don't like about Rams, but they get overlooked because of the Cummins. Just as some people are fans of certain trucks, I am a fan of the Cummins for many reasons. I don't think I am lone in thinking that way either.

Although the last time I tried something new, my F150 Ecoboost, it actually turned out to be a good thing. However, that truck wan't used to pull the RV out in the middle of nowhere.

 

[smurfs_of_war]

Let's say Ram does drop, but when they do the replacement has a sexy new name and is first diesel to 1000ftlbs but same HP rating as current cummins.

Would that ease fall out? Attract new customers or those waiting on the next torque war winner? Would the average Joe care if the curve wasn't as broad or 100-200 less Rpm when it is the first to 1k?

Just spit balling here...

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I think a lot of guys buying the HDs do so on several points rather than the overall brand name of the truck. Hear me out...

A while back a buddy of mine built a Franken-truck- shipped it to somewhere (I can't recall off the top of my head) in the states and 10 weeks later flew down and drove it home. F350 Harley with a tweaked out 5.9 and an Allison putting it to the ground. Why? Because oil money and boredom that's why. But I got thinking- that would have been my ideal truck too (at that time anyways). That was the best piece of each truck and points on a truck that I would consider before the Ram head, Blue oval, whatever....

For me when I bought my HD I looked at several factors rather than it being a Ram or a F250. I had absolutely decided that if I went oil burner, it would be Cummins. It wouldn't even have been a question, nor would I have cared if it was Ford, Ram or GM that offered the Cummins. I base that on the badge on our farm machinery and basically every piece of equipment we use that needs to be as reliable as possible during the 18 hour per day, 7 day per week, 8 to 10 week duty cycle/ **** kicking that is harvest or seeding. So, that would be one of my main buying points. heck, to further that point, ST came over from the Blue Oval camp for his Cummins. That speaks volumes in itself because if I have put the two user names together correctly, he was a die hard bleed blue kinda guy- ST, no dig meant, I am just using you as an example...

I guess to make sense of my rambling, I will say that- if you remove the big C badge on the side of that truck, you have taken away something that a guy like me associates with reliability. Guys like me get confused and frightened easily. Guys like me (in my age group and income tax bracket) are the ones with money that are willing to spend it to get what they want. When I get frightened and confused, two things pucker up... one of which is my wallet. Make sense?

 

[River19]

I believe, like many of you have stated, that dropping Cummins would be a big mistake on many fronts. Even if a new powerplant provided the best numbers on paper, the long term history and trust of the name Cummins and how that name has been associated with reliability in both light duty and heavy duty applications is the primary thing that would be missing from said hypothetical new badass non-Cummins engine.

It would take the better part of a decade of near flawless performance to even begin to earn back the cred the C on side has now.

When Cummins releases a new version/updated version of an engine, there is a certain earned trust that they did their homework and the new engine will last through the duty cycles expected of it. That can't be replicated easily.

 

[drittal]

Good discussion, guys!

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[Riccochet]

To be honest Nissan got the better end of any deal getting Cummins commercial 5.0 engine that's been around for a long long time. Sure, it's not as powerful as the 6.7, but reliability and service history speak for itself.

If FCA dropped Cummins I bet, without a doubt, we'd see the 6.7 or it's replacement in a Nissan within a year.

I wouldn't mind seeing a Mitsubishi large bore industrial turbo diesel reconfigured for 3/4 and 1 ton truck use. Very solid engines with world wide use and history.

 

[SouthTexan]

To be honest Nissan got the better end of any deal getting Cummins commercial 5.0 engine that's been around for a long long time. Sure, it's not as powerful as the 6.7, but reliability and service history speak for itself.

The production of the ISV5.0(the commercial version of the 5.0L) started in 2014, and the 6.7L has been around since 2007 while the engine it was built upon, the 5.9L, has been around since th early 80s.

 

[drittal]

Nissan would have to upgrade the axles and suspension or the extra weight of the 6.7l would give it a payload less than a Ram 1500.

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[Riccochet]

The production of the ISV5.0(the commercial version of the 5.0L) started in 2014, and the 6.7L has been around since 2007 while the engine it was built upon, the 5.9L, has been around since th early 80s.

You're right. I was thinking of another diesel application.

 

[mtofell]

the few years of crappy diesels ford had after the 7.3 doesnt seem to have hurt them much. i would imagine it would be the same for ram.

Blue oval worshiping is a mental disorder IMO. And I don't just mean to pick on Ford here. There are plenty of products that people are the same way about. Budweiser could start putting rat **** in their beer and only see a minimal sales drop. The Ford crowd is largely the same way. The abuse many Ford owners have endured with the 6.0 and then the 6.4 is just amazing. And they just keep coming back for more. I saw a post on an RV board where someone compared it to battered wife syndrome.

While Ram has its followers I don't think it runs nearly as deep as Ford and, to the point of the thread, many are more Cummins followers than Ram followers. On RV boards I see many more people refer to their truck as a Cummins than a Ram.

Like any negotiation I'm sure both sides are trying to figure out just how much the relationship is worth. I think they would both lose big if they split.

 

[Jaxyaks]

As the saying goes, I bought a cummins and it came with a Ram. Drop the cummins and there will be a lot of new HD diesel buyers looking elsewhere. I think a lot of cummins buyers purchase for the reliability of the engine, not so much the package it is wrapped in. Put a cummins in a Chevy and they will have a sales uptick

 

[SHOOT2KILL]

Devils Advocate Here...You couldn't give me a diesel for free again...Ive had 5...all G.M....All pre-Duramax...IMO...There all junk...And when they breakdown after the warrenty is up, they can cost big coin to repair...Thankfully I was smart enough to LEASE them, and stay under the mileage restrictions...I ate STANADYNE injector pumps like candy in those old diesels.......NEVER AGAIN.....

 

[SouthTexan]

So, that would be one of my main buying points. heck, to further that point, ST came over from the Blue Oval camp for his Cummins. That speaks volumes in itself because if I have put the two user names together correctly, he was a die hard bleed blue kinda guy- ST, no dig meant, I am just using you as an example...

No dig taken.

Although I was never a die hard bleed blue kind of guy. I am more of a "like certain aspects of each" kind of guy. When it comes to half tons, I like Fords for my needs as a tow/work vehicle. If I didn't use a half ton to tow much and wanted a smooth ride, then the Ram 1500 can't be beat in that area although one of the first mods I would want to do it supercharge the Hemi since I am a forced induction kind of guy. Although if I had to go out and buy a half ton today with already having a tow vehicle, it would be the new Raptor hands down. Midsizer would be a Toyota all the way.

When it comes to HD gasers, I like the Ford 6.2L. That would change if Ram put a better geared transmission behind the 6.4L. There are some things I like about the current Ford's HD diesel trucks like the 6R140 transmission that has been known in the diesel tuning world to take a ton of abuse and also has better gearing, but my preference for a Cummins is much much greater. Not dissing the other diesels, but it is Cummins or nothing based on the pure fact that I don't trust their reliability.

When it comes to muscle/sports cars, I can't lie, I like them all regardless of brand as long it is fun to drive, sounds good, and looks as good as it is fast.

 

[SouthTexan]

Devils Advocate Here...You couldn't give me a diesel for free again...Ive had 5...all G.M....All pre-Duramax...IMO...There all junk...And when they breakdown after the warrenty is up, they can cost big coin to repair...Thankfully I was smart enough to LEASE them, and stay under the mileage restrictions...I ate STANADYNE injector pumps like candy in those old diesels.......NEVER AGAIN.....

You owned 5 of one of the worst diesels ever put in a pickup in the 90s!?! Man, you are glutton for punishment.

Why on earth didn't you switch to a 5.9L or 7.3L after the first one failed?

 

[SHOOT2KILL]

You owned 5 of one of the worst diesels ever put in a pickup in the 90s!?! Man, you are glutton for punishment.

Why on earth didn't you switch to a 5.9L or 7.3L after the first one failed?

Die-Hard CHEVY guy then....Strong business relationship with the dealership owner...When they broke down there was a mechanic on the truck as soon as it got towed in...Repair turn around was usually 24hrs or less...In some cases if the truck broke before noon and was towed in, and they had the part on the shelf, it was fixed the sameday and I was back on the road...

Well known Chicagoland dealer..."WHERE YOU ALWAYS SAVE MORE MONEY"


BTW...You realize that 20-25% of DIESEL truck owners are just POSER's....Tell tale sign is the receiver on the hitch...No rust...Never been used...Looks brand new...And the truck is 3 years old...LOOOOOOOOL

 

[SouthTexan]

BTW...You realize that 20-25% of DIESEL truck owners are just POSER's....Tell tale sign is the receiver on the hitch...No rust...Never been used...Looks brand new...And the truck is 3 years old...LOOOOOOOOL

I think that percentage is the same for all truck owners, not just diesel. Most don't use them to their full potential. Heck, most HD truck owners probably don't need an HD for what they tow. But hey, who am I to tell them what to do with their money as long as they earned it legally and without tax payers assistance. It is not like it is bothering me or messing up my life. If it were then I would think that is more of an issue I have personally and not an issue they have.


Although, my bumper pull receiver hitch looks shiny and new from little use. My goose neck hitch other hand..... it's seen its fair share of trailers.

 

[drittal]

So, to continue with the what if scenario...

I know same of you wouldn't come back. What would it take to get you to seriously consider staying?

Longer warranty period and miles?
Bigger discounts?
Free upgrades?(ie. aisin)
More options? (Ie. Axle gearing)

I have to say if and when it came time to look again and Ram was offering say 7yr/140k (or better yet unlimited miles) warranty or Free diesel upgrade I would be tempted. But then, I'm leery of the PS and just don't like the current GM truck... maybe never will because I never have...

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[Jaxyaks]

It would have to have a lifetime warranty available, less money than the cummins because your resale will be horrible

 

[mtofell]

So, to continue with the what if scenario...

I know same of you wouldn't come back. What would it take to get you to seriously consider staying?

Longer warranty period and miles?
Bigger discounts?
Free upgrades?(ie. aisin)
More options? (Ie. Axle gearing)

I have to say if and when it came time to look again and Ram was offering say 7yr/140k (or better yet unlimited miles) warranty or Free diesel upgrade I would be tempted. But then, I'm leery of the PS and just don't like the current GM truck... maybe never will because I never have...

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Longer warranty gets my attention more than anything. The complexity of all newer vehicles scares me (gas and diesel). Driving anything out of warranty scares me to some extent.

Funny though one of our other household vehicles is an 08 Honda Odyssey. No warranty and I don't even think about problems. That thing is just old faithful. Change the oil and drive it. It's almost as though we're victims of our own technological success. Too many complex bells and whistles, too many emissions.

If I were looking for a diesel and Cummins was apart from Ram (and Ram had some new diesel) the Duramax/Alison would be my first choice. The Ford 6.7 is actually proving to be decent but I'm still not completely convinced. I'd definitely listen to what Ram had to offer though.