2500 or 3500 for 5th Wheel Retirement Towing

[Tulecreeper]

We are not traveling this year due to family issue, when we do travel almost everything you see in an RV park with a 5th wheel is a diesel. I myself like the lower RPMs at power and climbing hills at 2000 or so RPM instead of 3300 at 35 MPH in second gear with a gas truck.

I can climb a 10% grade towing 10,000# doing 60 MPH with no issues. Personally, RPM's man nothing to me.

OK, maybe a 7% grade.

 

[68PowerWagon]

3500 without question, you'll want the payload and as a practical matter the leaf springs are going to be a lot more stable towing.

I did NOT find this to be true. I loved the coils with air bags on my 2500. If I didn't go diesel this time around I would have done the same set up. I currently have a 3500 with the Cummins & self leveling air bags. I am pulling the same 5th wheel & see no difference in the handling while towing. Now it does ride like crap when empty compared to the 2500.
To the OP, with that much weight & the amount of traveling you are wanting to do I would do diesel 3500 in either SWR or DRW. If you are not intimidated by the DRW I would lean that way.

 

[JGrantham]

I started to purchase a 2500 diesel based on the weight of the trailer I thought I wanted which was around 80% capacity of the truck. Then I found a nicer slight bigger trailer (used) that I could afford, however the 2500 would not pull it. I thought a bit and said nope and went and ordered a 3500 DRW with the HO cummins and 8'bed. Basically I can pull anything I want to. So I purchased a DRV Mobile Suites 36RSSB3 dry weight 16,300 no regrets on the truck

 

[leftchevybehind]

If you're going to be towing full-time, diesel. The maintenance will be significantly more over time as the Emissions equipment on them will fail and cost a lot to fix.

 

[nlambert182]

If you're going to be towing full-time, diesel. The maintenance will be significantly more over time as the Emissions equipment on them will fail and cost a lot to fix.

What maintenance is significantly more aside from the chance of an emissions failure?

I've posted the numbers before disproving this myth, but I'll give the abridged version.

- Oil changes cost more, but are required half as often as a gasser.
Average cost to get an oil change on a 6.4 Hemi here is $112. Ram says change it every 8k miles.
Average cost to get an oil change (my last one) on a 6.7 Cummins here is $154. Cummins says change it every 15k miles.

- Fuel filters are required every other oil change, but there are no plugs or coils to contend with, so that's really a wash.
If you swap all 16 spark plugs and 8 coils at 100k miles, the OEM parts will cost roughly $871.
If you change both fuel filters with genuine Mopar/FG, by 100k miles you'd be at 6 changes and the cost would be roughly $850. It's a wash.

Everything else is specific to the truck and not the engine so there are no deltas in the cost.


The "only" maintenance cost delta is the emissions equipment and there are two options. 1) Replace the bad component or 2) delete it if you can. If you use the truck to tow a lot and the emissions system gets a good workout there's a likelihood that you'll go a long time before needing to replace it.

Before we get into fuel costs.... that is not as far off as some think. It depends on how you use the truck and the specific set up.

For towing you'll get much better MPG than a gasser but you may suffer with the unloaded diesel mileage depending on your gears. That said... I got 18.5 mpg on my 5.7 Hemi on the interstate with 3.21 gears and the ZF8, and I get 18.5 mpg mixed in my 6.7 with 3.47 gears behind the 68RFE. I get closer to 22 mpg on the interstate (empty).

 

[ramffml]

What maintenance is significantly more aside from the chance of an emissions failure?

I've posted the numbers before disproving this myth, but I'll give the abridged version.

- Oil changes cost more, but are required half as often as a gasser.
Average cost to get an oil change on a 6.4 Hemi here is $112. Ram says change it every 8k miles.
Average cost to get an oil change (my last one) on a 6.7 Cummins here is $154. Cummins says change it every 15k miles.

- Fuel filters are required every other oil change, but there are no plugs or coils to contend with, so that's really a wash.
If you swap all 16 spark plugs and 8 coils at 100k miles, the OEM parts will cost roughly $871.
If you change both fuel filters with genuine Mopar/FG, by 100k miles you'd be at 6 changes and the cost would be roughly $850. It's a wash.

Everything else is specific to the truck and not the engine so there are no deltas in the cost.


The "only" maintenance cost delta is the emissions equipment and there are two options. 1) Replace the bad component or 2) delete it if you can. If you use the truck to tow a lot and the emissions system gets a good workout there's a likelihood that you'll go a long time before needing to replace it.

Before we get into fuel costs.... that is not as far off as some think. It depends on how you use the truck and the specific set up.

For towing you'll get much better MPG than a gasser but you may suffer with the unloaded diesel mileage depending on your gears. That said... I got 18.5 mpg on my 5.7 Hemi on the interstate with 3.21 gears and the ZF8, and I get 18.5 mpg mixed in my 6.7 with 3.47 gears behind the 68RFE. I get closer to 22 mpg on the interstate (empty).

Ask any diesel mechanic, the emissions stuff is "when", not "if" it fails. Injectors? I can swap in another 6.4 for the price of replacing injectors.

That doesn't include other stuff like front end suspension components which probably fail quicker on a cummins truck due to that heavy cummins out in front.

The gasser is always the cheaper option. It's why they're there. You can prefer to drive the diesel better (I'd rather tow with a diesel no question) and over 200k miles you might start saving fuel depending on local fuel prices but when it comes to cost the gasser will always come out on top unless all you're doing is towing all day every day.

 

[nlambert182]

I could ask 20.... I used to work for one of the largest diesel shops in North Alabama as a service writer and later as the outside sales rep. We were THE shop that did all of Cummins warranty work.

Injectors were RARELY ever a thing before 250-300k miles. The cost to replace all 6 on a 6.7 was around $5,200. At 300k miles, you'll likely be replacing the Hemi.... cost is a lot more than a set of injectors.

Yes, emissions equipment will eventually fail. Depending on what fails determines the expense. If you had to replace the entire system soup to nuts, you're in for about $7-8k, but you're most likely to replace the DEF injector, DEF pump, or the DPF. Likely not all at the same time.

Suspension components fail no sooner on the Cummins powered trucks than the gassers. There is zero evidence to support that claim.


Gas might be the right choice for some and my argument has NEVER been to the contrary. My argument is that some folks claim matter of factly, that a diesel engine is much more expensive to operate and maintain, and that is not always the case. It depends on how it's used. A diesel truck is not always more expensive.

The purpose of a diesel is to tow. If you're buying one to go get groceries then you've bought the wrong truck.

Some examples of fuel costs as well (using today's local prices):

All assuming a 300 mile trip towing:
Diesel: $3.48/gal
87 octane: $3.06/gal
Gasser @ 10 mpg = 30 gallons burned @ a total cost of $91.80
Diesel @ 13 mpg = 23 gallons burned @ a total cost of $80.31
Delta - $19.15 cheaper to the diesel

Fun fact, when towing it only requires the diesel to get 1.5 mpg more to get ahead of the gasser.


All assuming a 300 mile trip empty (My prev '18 1500 5.7 Hemi vs my current '18 2500 6.7 Cummins):
Diesel: $3.48/gal
87 octane: $3.06/gal
Gasser @ 18.5 mpg = 16.2 gallons burned @ $49.62
Diesel @ 18.5 mpg = 16.2 gallons burned @ $56.43
Delta - $6.81 to the gasser

 

[ramffml]

I could ask 20.... I used to work for one of the largest diesel shops in North Alabama as a service writer and later as the outside sales rep. We were THE shop that did all of Cummins warranty work.

You should watch alex getty's stuff, he fixes cummins and other semi diesels for a living and he personally loves the cummins. He'll rarely recommend it over the gas, reason, maintenance costs

Injectors were RARELY ever a thing before 250-300k miles. The cost to replace all 6 on a 6.7 was around $5,200. At 300k miles, you'll likely be replacing the Hemi.... cost is a lot more than a set of injectors.

Used hemis are less than that.

Yes, emissions equipment will eventually fail. Depending on what fails determines the expense. If you had to replace the entire system soup to nuts, you're in for about $7-8k, but you're most likely to replace the DEF injector, DEF pump, or the DPF. Likely not all at the same time.

Suspension components fail no sooner on the Cummins powered trucks than the gassers. There is zero evidence to support that claim.

Weight, of course it matters.

Gas might be the right choice for some and my argument has NEVER been to the contrary. My argument is that some folks claim matter of factly, that a diesel engine is much more expensive to operate and maintain, and that is not always the case. It depends on how it's used. A diesel truck is not always more expensive.

It is, for 99% of the people on this forum who do not use them for their business.

The purpose of a diesel is to tow. If you're buying one to go get groceries then you've bought the wrong truck.

Some examples of fuel costs as well (using today's local prices):

All assuming a 300 mile trip towing:
Diesel: $3.48/gal
87 octane: $3.06/gal
Gasser @ 10 mpg = 30 gallons burned @ a total cost of $91.80
Diesel @ 13 mpg = 23 gallons burned @ a total cost of $80.31
Delta - $19.15 cheaper to the diesel

Fun fact, when towing it only requires the diesel to get 1.5 mpg more to get ahead of the gasser.


All assuming a 300 mile trip empty (My prev '18 1500 5.7 Hemi vs my current '18 2500 6.7 Cummins):
Diesel: $3.48/gal
87 octane: $3.06/gal
Gasser @ 18.5 mpg = 16.2 gallons burned @ $49.62
Diesel @ 18.5 mpg = 16.2 gallons burned @ $56.43
Delta - $6.81 to the gasser

Too much here is local/regional, no use arguing exact mpg but general rule it takes a long while to ever get it back unless you're one of those 1%.

 

[CanuckRam1313]

3500 Cummins all day long, and the 8' bed for sure.
Biggest thing IMPO is to decide on single or dual rear wheels.

I personally would not opt for the factory rear air level suspension though.
I'd get a top line aftermarket set up with compressor, gauge package, dash control.

The factory ones have had issues, and two close friends have 3500's that came with the factory set up and it was nothing but issues and warranty work.

They then put in quality aftermarket set ups and have never had an issue.

 

[nlambert182]

You should watch alex getty's stuff, he fixes cummins and other semi diesels for a living and he personally loves the cummins. He'll rarely recommend it over the gas, reason, maintenance costs


Used hemis are less than that.


Weight, of course it matters.


It is, for 99% of the people on this forum who do not use them for their business.



Too much here is local/regional, no use arguing exact mpg but general rule it takes a long while to ever get it back unless you're one of those 1%.

There it is again.... you cannot possibly know what works best for 99% of the people on here. It is far beyond wise to ever assume that you know. This is the entire point I'm trying to make. You cannot talk in absolutes.

I wasn't talking a used engine. But, if you prefer to go that route you can get a set of reman Cummins injectors for half of new. You'd be into a set with labor for around $4k. I wouldn't want a used Hemi even at $6k, let alone less than $4k. It's gonna have some miles.

Humor me.... have you ever owned a Cummins, or are you just going by Youtube videos and what you read online? I'm not making a joke... dead serious question. I don't get the impression that you've owned one, and that may be why you're speaking in absolutes. If you had, you'd see that it's not what you think.

 

[ramffml]

There it is again.... you cannot possibly know what works best for 99% of the people on here. It is far beyond wise to ever assume that you know. This is the entire point I'm trying to make. You cannot talk in absolutes.

Yes we can, math is math.

I wasn't talking a used engine. But, if you prefer to go that route you can get a set of reman Cummins injectors for half of new. You'd be into a set with labor for around $4k. I wouldn't want a used Hemi even at $6k, let alone less than $4k. It's gonna have some miles.

Humor me.... have you ever owned a Cummins, or are you just going by Youtube videos and what you read online? I'm not making a joke... dead serious question. I don't get the impression that you've owned one, and that may be why you're speaking in absolutes. If you had, you'd see that it's not what you think.

I don't need to own an electric truck to know it's going to be a terrible idea. I don't need to own a GM truck to know that they have terrible reliability when it comes to lifters, even worse than the hemi.

I've been smart enough to avoid diesels lol. I have several extended family members into diesel trucks (and a car). You don't need to own one when you have literally have every diesel mechanic in the world telling you these new diesels are a nightmare when it comes to longterm costs. Again, not "if", "when".

 

[nlambert182]

If you haven't owned one, you really shouldn't speak on them.

Not every diesel mechanic will tell you that they're a "bad idea". Only people who have problems post in forums and make youtube videos. There are thousands more who rely on these trucks daily and go many trouble free miles with them. It's specific to every individual and their intended use of the truck. There is no one size fits all solution.

I could tell you that GMs and Rams have lifter problems and know someone personally who has suffered from both brands. I can tell you that Fords have catastrophic 10 speed transmission problems (from personal experience). But that doesn't mean everyone does. I can tell you that I've seen and experienced emissions issues with the Rams. Every one of them I've owned, frankly. but by and large they were relatively easy fixes and I was never down for more than a couple days. Once corrected, I never had another issue with them. The rest of the trucks have performed flawlessly including the 68RFE transmissions that some say are a ticking timebomb.

Like saying the Cummins will suffer from a HPFP failure, when in reality it's only specific ones or that they're going to need injectors. Not if you're staying on top of fuel filters and doing the maintenance properly. Or that Cummins is at high risk of a grid heater bolt failure. It's just not a thing.

But the internet will tell you it is... and to exacerbate that, people who don't know repeat it without really knowing the details.

 

[ramffml]

If you haven't owned one, you really shouldn't speak on them.

This is a fallacy and that dog won't hunt. Data is data regardless of how or by who its collected.

As I said, I don't need to own an EV truck to know that's it a terrible idea for towing.

Not every diesel mechanic will tell you that they're a "bad idea". Only people who have problems post in forums and make youtube videos. There are thousands more who rely on these trucks daily and go many trouble free miles with them. It's specific to every individual and their intended use of the truck. There is no one size fits all solution.

I could tell you that GMs and Rams have lifter problems and know someone personally who has suffered from both brands. I can tell you that Fords have catastrophic 10 speed transmission problems (from personal experience). But that doesn't mean everyone does. I can tell you that I've seen and experienced emissions issues with the Rams. Every one of them I've owned, frankly. but by and large they were relatively easy fixes and I was never down for more than a couple days. Once corrected, I never had another issue with them. The rest of the trucks have performed flawlessly including the 68RFE transmissions that some say are a ticking timebomb.

Like saying the Cummins will suffer from a HPFP failure, when in reality it's only specific ones or that they're going to need injectors. Not if you're staying on top of fuel filters and doing the maintenance properly. Or that Cummins is at high risk of a grid heater bolt failure. It's just not a thing.

But the internet will tell you it is... and to exacerbate that, people who don't know repeat it without really knowing the details.

It's really some of you guys not wanting to admit that diesel is expensive. It's beyond me why, facts are facts and you're more than welcome to prefer the diesel despite the cost. But the cost is very much higher for a modern diesel.

My favourite way to say this: I'd rather tow with a diesel, but I'd rather own a gas.

 

[nlambert182]

This is a fallacy and that dog won't hunt. Data is data regardless of how or by who its collected.

As I said, I don't need to own an EV truck to know that's it a terrible idea for towing.



It's really some of you guys not wanting to admit that diesel is expensive. It's beyond me why, facts are facts and you're more than welcome to prefer the diesel despite the cost. But the cost is very much higher for a modern diesel.

My favourite way to say this: I'd rather tow with a diesel, but I'd rather own a gas.

Data is one thing.... which I've presented to you numerous times. You just cherry pick what you want to use.

There's nothing to admit. Diesel "can" be more expensive depending on how you use it. I've shown that it isn't aways the case. This is what I've said all along but you're ignoring it. Diesel is not always, 100% of the time, more expensive. I've never said it was always the best choice and I've mentioned many times that gassers have their place. There are times where I've suggested gas being the better option for an OP.

If you've never owned a diesel you have no hard data to back up whether you'd rather tow with a diesel and own a gasser. You're making that assumption based off internet forums. Kinda proving the point.


So let's not derail this thread any further. The OP has what they need to make the decision of what they decide to do.

 

[ramffml]

Data is one thing.... which I've presented to you numerous times. You just cherry pick what you want to use.

There's nothing to admit. Diesel "can" be more expensive depending on how you use it. I've shown that it isn't aways the case.

What we're disagreeing on is the frequency; the point remains, for 99% of people on this forum who are not using a diesel for their business and towing heavy all day every day, its going to cost more to own the diesel.

This is what I've said all along but you're ignoring it. Diesel is not always, 100% of the time, more expensive. I've never said it was always the best choice and I've mentioned many times that gassers have their place. There are times where I've suggested gas being the better option for an OP.

If you've never owned a diesel you have no hard data to back up whether you'd rather tow with a diesel and own a gasser. You're making that assumption based off internet forums. Kinda proving the point.

No, I'm just listening to the guys who own them and other guys who fix them.

Again, third time, remember the point about electric trucks.

 

[392heminut]

Also, the 2500 will ride better unloaded than the 3500 if that is important to you. Of course, the ride is with respect to the road quality.

I totally disagree with this, and my wife will say the same! We have had two 2500s and then went to a 3500 SRW and the ride is noticably better with the 3500 unloaded! I-10 between Las Cruces NM and Tucson is terrible because of all the commercial traffic. We travel that stretch a lot and the 3500 is so much more comfortable unloaded and is at least as comfortable loaded as either of the 2500s were.

 

[dhay13]

Can't argue the gas vs diesel thing as I don't have enough experience with diesels but my son (and me) had/have 2018 2500's with 6.4's and 4.10's. He towed an 8100lb TT and average 8.5 MPG over 9500 miles towing all over the country. He then bought a 2021 2500 Cummins and towing the same trailer he got 12.5 MPG. Empty he got about 11.5-12.0 in the 6.4 and about 15-16 in the Cummins. The only other real difference he mentioned was getting fuel while towing. Many stations were hard to get in to the gasoline pumps pulling the TT but no issues at all getting in to the diesel pumps.

 

[dhay13]

The other thing I can add is to check fuel prices where you will be traveling. I heard a few on here saying diesel was cheaper where they are. At one point around here diesel was over $1 more per gallon. According to gasbuddy today 4.49 while regular is 3.68 so not a huge spread at todays prices.

 

[nlambert182]

I posted earlier in another thread (with the math), that to break even on the fuel costs with towing gas has to average $1.05 gallon cheaper than diesel. Otherwise the mpg difference between the two will quickly cover the delta. Especially considering some of these diesels get remarkable mpg already.

Wife's Armada gets 18.5 mpg on the highway. I get that putting around town and a hair over 22 mpg on the interstate. I was talking to the guy I bought my travel trailer from and he was pulling it with a 1500 Silverado. Best he ever saw towing was 10 mpg. I'm consistently seeing 13.5-14 mpg towing it and that's not on flat roads.

When it's time to delete this thing, I would expect to see upwards of 20mpg empty in town and probably closer to 25 mpg on the highway with my gearing. I've consistently seen at least a 3mpg increase after a delete. I would anticipate being in the 15-16.5 mpg range when towing the trailer that I have.

 

[jejb]

I totally disagree with this, and my wife will say the same! We have had two 2500s and then went to a 3500 SRW and the ride is noticably better with the 3500 unloaded! I-10 between Las Cruces NM and Tucson is terrible because of all the commercial traffic. We travel that stretch a lot and the 3500 is so much more comfortable unloaded and is at least as comfortable loaded as either of the 2500s were.

That will depend on suspension options. I guarantee you my 2 stock 2500 Rams with factory air ride better unloaded than any stock unloaded Ram 3500.