Another request for help on choosing a tow vehicle

[Randy Grant]

That trailer is well within 1500 territory but the problem is.....are you keeping this trailer for awhile ? Most don't.

Not wife bashing here but a prime example and an expensive one at that.

Years ago bought a new Chevy Avalanche to pull a larger pop-up, wife hated trailer.
Following year traded it in on a hybrid, Avalanche struggled mightily in the mountains so bought a 1500, did well.

2 years later the wife had to have a 30 footer, 1500 struggled mightily in the mountains and the tounge weight ate up the payload so ran out and got a 2500.

I believe she's eyeing a 5th wheel now.

Got the picture ?

Happy wife, happy life. Enjoy them both.

 

[Randy Grant]

That 12,000lbs is a marketing gimmick. You can't get anywhere near 12,000lbs legally with a 1500 due to payload. A typical 1500 has about 1300-1600lbs payload depending on options. A 12,000lb TT will have about 1500lbs tongue weight alone and would put most over payload from a legal standpoint.

In my opinion 12,000 is way too much for a 1500 to be safe, let alone legal. 8000lbs is about the limit for a TT on a typical 1500 for towing due to tongue weight and payload. An 8000lb TT will have about 1100lbs of tongue weight when properly loaded. We just towed my sons 8100lb TT to Texas and we weighed it on the CAT scale. He had about 1100lbs tongue weight and the percentages were right on and it towed great. His truck weighed about 8100lbs and the TT was also about 8100lbs. With the tongue weight the truck was about 9200 and the TT was 7000lbs. At 1100lbs tongue weight a loaded 1500 Laramie would be over payload once you add driver, passenger, tonneau cover, suitcases, etc. Towing a boat you can go slightly higher because boats have less tongue weight. My 9000lb boat has about 800lbs tongue weight and I have towed that with my old 1500.

I don't think you can get 4.10's in a 1500, at least you couldn't in a 2018 and older. 3.92 was the highest, which nobody would be able to tell the difference between 3.92 and 4.10 anyway.

Opine all you want, but if it was a marketing gimmick, plaintiffs and their lawyers would run RAM out of business. Just because a truck has a number on it for towing dose not set the hard upper limit. It's the RECOMENDED maximum, and is dependent on the tires for the most part. If someone is going to be doing a lot of towing one of the first changes should be tires.They are the weak link in the chain, but not the only consideration.

 

[Randy Grant]

I was towing a 13,000 lb trailer load and a 2500 diesel pickup was ideal. But for anything under 10,000 lbs I would buy a 1500 with a gas engine and ideally 4.10 gears. As an around town vehicle a 1500 provides a much smoother ride and is gentler on the body when on less than perfect roads.

My first 2WD truck was a 1964 Dodge with the slant six engine that produced 101 horsepower and I used it to tow a horse trailer with two horses up to the Bishop area in California from Los Angeles. Now we have 1500 class trucks that are rated to safely tow over 12,000 lbs and that have V-8 engines producing 395 horsepower and yet some folks think that that is not enough truck. My how times have changed.

Back then anything over a half ton was either a farm truck, or a commercial hauler. But then, we weren't trying to go 80mph with a 20000lb trailer behind is getting to the campground to have a fun weekend. And back then a good pickup was a F-100.

 

[dhay13]

Opine all you want, but if it was a marketing gimmick, plaintiffs and their lawyers would run RAM out of business. Just because a truck has a number on it for towing dose not set the hard upper limit. It's the RECOMENDED maximum, and is dependent on the tires for the most part. If someone is going to be doing a lot of towing one of the first changes should be tires.They are the weak link in the chain, but not the only consideration.

The limiting factor in most cases is payload. You will have a very hard time properly loading a 12,000lb trailer and staying under the payload capacity of most 1/2 tons. Most 1/2 tons have between 1200-1500lbs payload capacity. An 8000lb trailer will have about 1000-1200lbs of tongue weight just by itself. That;s not adding in a tonneau cover, aftermarket tires and wheels, anything in the bed, etc.

So while it isn't illegal to tow at max tow capacity you do have to stay under all other maximums as well, which is almost possible to do. This is why it is a marketing gimmick. No matter what 12,000lb trailer you find it will likely be illegal either because of payload, GCWR or because or GRAWR

 

[392DevilDog]

Opine all you want, but if it was a marketing gimmick, plaintiffs and their lawyers would run RAM out of business. Just because a truck has a number on it for towing dose not set the hard upper limit. It's the RECOMENDED maximum, and is dependent on the tires for the most part. If someone is going to be doing a lot of towing one of the first changes should be tires.They are the weak link in the chain, but not the only consideration.

The p rated tires on the truck exceed the axle ratings. Changing them only gives you more peace of mind. This is because they are already sufficient for the axle.

The tow rating is a Marketing gimmick.

The tow rating right now for a RAM TRUCK is figured by takimg GCWR minus base weight.

For instance, lets say you have a Hemi 3.92 rear 4x4 truck.

GCWR is 17000. Your door jamb says 1500lb payload which allows you to figure your base weight. GVWR is 7100.

So your max towing will say 11400. You still have to drive the truck and atleast have a hitch.

But people want to tow 12000lbs. It is not gonna happen.

Marketing gimmick

 

[Randy Grant]

The p rated tires on the truck exceed the axle ratings. Changing them only gives you more peace of mind.

Marketing gimmick.

The tow rating right now for a RAM TRUCK is figured by takimg GCWR minus base weight.

For instance, lets say you have a Hemi 3.92 rear 4x4 truck.

GCWR is 17000. Your door jamb says 1500lb payload which allows you to figure your base weight. GVWR is 7100.

So your max towing will say 11400. You still have to drive the truck and atleast have a hitch.

But people want to tow 12000lbs. It is not gonna happen.

Marketing gimmick

Marketing gimmick my @$$. The lawyers would have a great time with that one. If the tires aren't figured in with the rest of the equation, then the equation means nothing. The tires are the weak link, Or are the 4x4's with different tires using a different axel than the 4x2"s. Nice hat rack there.

 

[Randy Grant]

The limiting factor in most cases is payload. You will have a very hard time properly loading a 12,000lb trailer and staying under the payload capacity of most 1/2 tons. Most 1/2 tons have between 1200-1500lbs payload capacity. An 8000lb trailer will have about 1000-1200lbs of tongue weight just by itself. That;s not adding in a tonneau cover, aftermarket tires and wheels, anything in the bed, etc.

So while it isn't illegal to tow at max tow capacity you do have to stay under all other maximums as well, which is almost possible to do. This is why it is a marketing gimmick. No matter what 12,000lb trailer you find it will likely be illegal either because of payload, GCWR or because or GRAWR

What do you think they use to get the payload figures? Axel, brakes, tires, transmission, and infinitum.

 

[Quyonmob]

Marketing gimmick my @$$. The lawyers would have a great time with that one. If the tires aren't figured in with the rest of the equation, then the equation means nothing. The tires are the weak link, Or are the 4x4's with different tires using a different axel than the 4x2"s. Nice hat rack there.

The OEM P rated tires are not the weak link. Their load rating exceeds GVWR and GAWR.

The weak link is payload capacity (GVWR - curb weight) is insufficient to handle the tongue weight of a 12,000lb trailer when properly loaded (12-15% trailer weight should be tongue weight).

 

[392DevilDog]

Marketing gimmick my @$$. The lawyers would have a great time with that one. If the tires aren't figured in with the rest of the equation, then the equation means nothing. The tires are the weak link, Or are the 4x4's with different tires using a different axel than the 4x2"s. Nice hat rack there.

Wow. Buddy.

The tires on any RAM TRUCK exceed the axle ratings. Fact.

And you obviously did not comprehend why I said marketing gimmick.

On avg they say a RAM 1500 can tow 11000lbs with 3.92.

That 110000 lbs is everything added to a truck. Including the driver.

So when they say 11000lbs towing...that is a driverless truck. 11000 is a marketing gimmick.

When you get to figuring driver cargo hitch and 13% camper tongue weights...you are down near 6000 real quick.

 

[392DevilDog]

What do you think they use to get the payload figures? Axel, brakes, tires, transmission, and infinitum.

Yes. All the components decide what the GVWR is. The 4th Gen had a 6900GVWR in 4x4 and a 6700GVWR in 2x4

The 5th Gen got bigger brakes and a 6th lug nut and BAM... GVWR is 7100 on 4x4 and 6900 on 2x4. Both generations use similar tires...because they all exceed axle ratings.

And, guess what, the reason payload is low is because these trucks weigh a lot.

Tradesman 1840 payload. 7100 minus 1840 is a base weight of 5260

Laramie Longhorn. 1069 payload. Base weight of 6031. And the Longhorn has the "better" tires

Payload is the limiting factor for a camper. Even if you go near max axle...you are still limited by it.

Good times.

 

[dhay13]

What do you think they use to get the payload figures? Axel, brakes, tires, transmission, and infinitum.

Not in the aspect you are suggesting. Yes these items influence the payload but payload is calculated by taking the GVWR - curb weight = payload. So yes you are right that tires influence payload but not in the sense you are inferring. All of the items you mentioned help to dictate GVWR but not payload itself. Example, my truck GVWR = 10,000. Curb weight of my truck off the line was 7027lbs. Payload is 2973lbs. which is referenced by my yellow door sticker. Now adding larger tires and big bumpers will reduce my payload but as long as my truck weighs less than 10,001lbs I'm ok.

 

[Randy Grant]

How is truck towing capacity determined?
Towing capacity refers to how much weight you can safely pull behind your truck with a trailer. ... To find your truck's towing capacity, subtract your truck's curb weight from its Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating (GCVWR). The GCVWR is the maximum weight of your loaded truck and the weight of its attached trailer.

 

[ramffml]

How is truck towing capacity determined?
Towing capacity refers to how much weight you can safely pull behind your truck with a trailer. ... To find your truck's towing capacity, subtract your truck's curb weight from its Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating (GCVWR). The GCVWR is the maximum weight of your loaded truck and the weight of its attached trailer.

My 1500 manual/pdf says this, page 186:

Total weight must be distributed between
the tow vehicle and the trailer such that the
following four ratings are not exceeded:
1. GVWR
2. GTW
3. GAWR
4. Tongue weight rating for the trailer
hitch utilized.

What you can "pull" is not the only limiting factor. The weight you can put into your truck also has a limit. Clearly they are also telling you not to exceed payload.

 

[dhay13]

My 1500 manual/pdf says this, page 186:

Total weight must be distributed between
the tow vehicle and the trailer such that the
following four ratings are not exceeded:
1. GVWR
2. GTW
3. GAWR
4. Tongue weight rating for the trailer
hitch utilized.

What you can "pull" is not the only limiting factor. The weight you can put into your truck also has a limit. Clearly they are also telling you not to exceed payload.

Correct. And by these rules it is almost impossible to get to max trailer tow capacity without exceeding one of these first. GVWR means payload is factored into that.

 

[Randy Grant]

The GCVWR is the maximum weight of your loaded truck and the weight of its attached trailer.

 

[Quyonmob]

The GCVWR is the maximum weight of your loaded truck and the weight of its attached trailer.

and GVWR is the max load allowed to be applied to the truck. This includes payload and tongue weight.

You cannot exceed GVWR based on GCVWR.

 

[Randy Grant]

and GVWR is the max load allowed to be applied to the truck. This includes payload and tongue weight.

You cannot exceed GVWR based on GCVWR.

read-
loaded truck and the weight of its attached trailer.

 

[Quyonmob]

read-
loaded truck and the weight of its attached trailer.

You really don’t understand do you?

GVWR cant be exceeded to meet GCVWR.

Neither can be exceed. Getting to your max tow capacity will put you over your GVWR based on tongue weight in most properly loaded scenarios, even while staying under GCVWR.

 

[ramffml]

read-
loaded truck and the weight of its attached trailer.

There are multiple limits on your truck. GCWR is just one of them. You are limited to what you can tow, based on which limit you reach first.

Lets say you're tow rating is 11000 pounds. If you had a hay wagon loaded up to that weight, you could theoretically pull it because every bit of weight is on the wagon wheels, and there is just a draw bar/hitch running from wagon to truck. Attaching the bar to your truck is like adding 20 pounds of payload.




Now lets rearrange that hay wagon. Take off the front axle. Instead of a draw bar, weld a solid hitch on the front. Suddenly you're going to be putting what, 5000+ pounds on the back of your truck because the rear axle is right at the very end of the wagon; the front will be supported by the hitch. You're still pulling the same weight, but you've transferred a horrendous amount on the back of your truck, so you can no longer pull that wagon. GCWR hasn't changed, but payload has. Now payload has been exceeed, it's game over.

Bottom line; when pulling a box trailer or an RV, these 1500s will always reach payload limit before GCWR limit. You're just wishing the problem away and only looking at what you can pull without regard for what you can carry. There IS a limit to what you can carry, and you will reach that first.

Other than hay wagon styled trailers, a boat trailer is perhaps the only other mainstream trailer you can pull that will allow you to hit GCWR without exceeding payload, because all the heaviest bits of the boat (motors) are over the rear axle of the trailer. An RV or enclosed/box trailer, not a chance.

 

[dhay13]

Yep. My 9000lb boat has about 750lbs tongue weight but my sons 8000lb TT has about 1100lbs tongue weight