Cam and heads

[MOPAR Dan]

Good morning, I've done all the basic fun stuff that I can on my 13' ram 1500 but now I'm kicking around the idea of doing a heads and cam kit, thoughts?

 

[charonblk07]

Easy and fun to do, but on the expensive side on the VVT engine due to the high cost of the phaser cam. Small cams like the Comp 260 or either of the entry level cams from Moe's or Jay don't need a spring upgrade but the real performance cams need to have the springs swapped and the phaser locked or limited. Expect a cam swap to cost you between $1000 and $1400 with springs then the head work on top of that.

 

[Hemi450hp]

Is your truck a 6sp or 8sp? What gears do you have?

That is a huge deciding factor on what cam to go with.

 

[brusk]

Easy and fun to do, but on the expensive side on the VVT engine due to the high cost of the phaser cam. Small cams like the Comp 260 or either of the entry level cams from Moe's or Jay don't need a spring upgrade but the real performance cams need to have the springs swapped and the phaser locked or limited. Expect a cam swap to cost you between $1000 and $1400 with springs then the head work on top of that.

Whats the need for the VVT phaser locked or limited? Hardware issue or because it can't be properly limited/corrected in the software? Sorry used to other platforms where you have full access to VVT tables and settings.

 

[R/T_Fire]

Easy and fun to do, but on the expensive side on the VVT engine due to the high cost of the phaser cam. Small cams like the Comp 260 or either of the entry level cams from Moe's or Jay don't need a spring upgrade but the real performance cams need to have the springs swapped and the phaser locked or limited. Expect a cam swap to cost you between $1000 and $1400 with springs then the head work on top of that.

Do most aftermarket heads come with springs that compliment the more performance oriented cams?

 

[SilverSurfer15]

I'm not the OP, but I have question related to this....

2015 truck, 35" tire, 4.10 gears, 8spd... what could I do here? Whats the biggest cam I could do without a stall, and on stock heads (dont mind buying springs but dont want to swap/mod head itself)? Would going up to 4.56 be smart? Stall be smart? Its just a street truck that I want to sound good and be fun to drive, but also want it to stay DD-ish.

Is it possible to get ~350whp with all the supporting mods, no cats, and cam? (LTs, TB, etc)

Also, out of curiosity, what type of power would the heads add, over cam only?


Thanks

 

[charonblk07]

Whats the need for the VVT phaser locked or limited? Hardware issue or because it can't be properly limited/corrected in the software? Sorry used to other platforms where you have full access to VVT tables and settings.

The limiter is to prevent piston/valve contact when the phaser assembly ******* the cam timing; it limits the retard to 18 degrees instead of the 34 degrees. Larger cams can run into PTV issues with larger valve lifts if you don't have pistons with big enough notches since the hemi is an interference engine.

Do most aftermarket heads come with springs that compliment the more performance oriented cams?

All depends on what options you get for the heads you choose. You can just put stock valves back in or any combination of valves and shims including a dual beehive spring setup for some serious spring pressures on big boost systems. For most hemi builds the PSI 1511 or 1515 springs are more than sufficient to provide the proper spring pressures required and just need the Manley shims to get the proper 1.800" install height.

 

[R/T_Fire]

All depends on what options you get for the heads you choose. You can just put stock valves back in or any combination of valves and shims including a dual beehive spring setup for some serious spring pressures on big boost systems. For most hemi builds the PSI 1511 or 1515 springs are more than sufficient to provide the proper spring pressures required and just need the Manley shims to get the proper 1.800" install height.

Good info to know to help me plan... I'm looking to basically build the best (not worry about cost as much) 5.7L vs the best 6.4L and compare the pros and cons and cost of each build before I decide which direction I want to go... Once I do more homework and get a ton of questions I"ll be picking our brain alot. You've been warned. Oh and I probably wont build this engine if I stick with the 5.7L. I'll buy a used or new short block and build that up. I have been pushing around the idea of Cam and heads also but also looking at it as, is it worth it on a 100k motor or should I wait a little and do it when this motor goes out.

 

[brusk]

The limiter is to prevent piston/valve contact when the phaser assembly ******* the cam timing; it limits the retard to 18 degrees instead of the 34 degrees. Larger cams can run into PTV issues with larger valve lifts if you don't have pistons with big enough notches since the hemi is an interference engine.

I understand what the limiter is/does just seems like something that should be able to be done in the software. I could see a hardware limiter as a safety measure but any upgraded cam should really have the VVT settings updated in the tune.

 

[charonblk07]

Good info to know to help me plan... I'm looking to basically build the best (not worry about cost as much) 5.7L vs the best 6.4L and compare the pros and cons and cost of each build before I decide which direction I want to go... Once I do more homework and get a ton of questions I"ll be picking our brain alot. You've been warned. Oh and I probably wont build this engine if I stick with the 5.7L. I'll buy a used or new short block and build that up. I have been pushing around the idea of Cam and heads also but also looking at it as, is it worth it on a 100k motor or should I wait a little and do it when this motor goes out.

Pick away, I'll do what I can. I'm in the process of looking at a 6.4L based engine for the future as well.

I'm not the OP, but I have question related to this....

2015 truck, 35" tire, 4.10 gears, 8spd... what could I do here? Whats the biggest cam I could do without a stall, and on stock heads (dont mind buying springs but dont want to swap/mod head itself)? Would going up to 4.56 be smart? Stall be smart? Its just a street truck that I want to sound good and be fun to drive, but also want it to stay DD-ish.

Is it possible to get ~350whp with all the supporting mods, no cats, and cam? (LTs, TB, etc)

Also, out of curiosity, what type of power would the heads add, over cam only?


Thanks

You want to stick with a small cam if you're trying to turn the heavy 35s, even with the 4.10s. The problem with the performance cams is they can never make as much power down low as the stock or torque oriented cams. A smaller valve lift will always generate more vacuum which is what's needed to make low end, less vacuum is generated the larger the valve lift but the larger the valve lift the more top end power you'll make when you need volume over flow velocity.


Yes it's very easy to get 350rwhp out of a bolt-ons with heads and cam, but getting it where you want it in the power band is the fun part.

I understand what the limiter is/does just seems like something that should be able to be done in the software. I could see a hardware limiter as a safety measure but any upgraded cam should really have the VVT settings updated in the tune.

We can't control the phaser that accurately in the hemi since there's only a single solenoid that controls the VVT and Chrysler uses the large cam sweep for emissions and fuel economy, not for performance; even the 18 degrees is a lot of sweep for a performance oriented cam. If there was an inlet/outlet solenoid where the sweep could be controlled a lot lore accurately then it's be great but it's not.

 

[sicmadek]

Is your truck a 6sp or 8sp? What gears do you have?

That is a huge deciding factor on what cam to go with.

How so? There are two 4 dr trucks have your small cam. The fastest 1 of the 2 doesnt have heads and is a 8 spd. Another 4 dr truck has your big cam and heads. That truck is even more disappointing. So id like to know what you are using as a base for deciding cam size.

 

[Kotta390]

 

[brusk]

We can't control the phaser that accurately in the hemi since there's only a single solenoid that controls the VVT and Chrysler uses the large cam sweep for emissions and fuel economy, not for performance; even the 18 degrees is a lot of sweep for a performance oriented cam. If there was an inlet/outlet solenoid where the sweep could be controlled a lot lore accurately then it's be great but it's not.

Ok so it's like original VVT engine where it's not infinitely variable it's just more like on/off moving from min to max settings? Typical older engines one turn on for the mid RPM range and then turn back off at higher RPM's.

 

[sicmadek]

Theres so many variations to whether you need the cam phaser locked or not. My cam is a performance cam and does not use a phase locker. A big high lift cam meant for big ported heads and a built would need a locker. Most ppl will not need that type of cam if the designer cares enough to draw it up. You can either pick a one size tries to fits all cam or let someone like jay design one for your application.

 

[Paluby]

x2......

 

[THETANK]

Call me lazy but if I wanted more power I would do this, grab the Mopar parts catalogue and turn to the page with crate engines. I would buy the biggest highest hp motor that fits in the RAM purchase it and have the best Mopar man install it. Oh and find the best tranny and rear end while shopping.

 

[Hemi_Express2013]

Technically one doesn't need the limiter. The sweep can be controlled with the tune. Let's just call the limiter an insurance policy against another tuner slapping the valves.

 

[sicmadek]

Technically one doesn't need the limiter. The sweep can be controlled with the tune. Let's just call the limiter an insurance policy against another tuner slapping the valves.

Thats why the guy that tunes my truck is the same guy that designed my cam

 

[Palomba]

The phaser is actually pretty dang accurate, THe solenoid uses oil to control it and at 50% is dead center, lesser is less timing, higher percentage phases to advance. Trick is finding a tuner who can adjust and understand the VVT tables to get the most out of a cam. It would be dumb to eliminate the phaser ability in a VVT engine, you are throwing away driveability and horsepower relationship at that point. Cam installs are straight forward. You don't have to pull the heads to do it, but makes changing springs a lot easier than fighting it on the truck, the spring locks tend to get to be a PITA due to how small they are. have extras on hand, if you drop one it could fall into the oil pan, if so leave it there no hard done. Pulling the brake booster makes for on the truck spring change a lot easier on the left side. But either way you can pull the heads on a HEMI truck in couple of hours.