Synthetic Oil

[Hemi395]

So I can't remember if this was discussed here as I've read so many threads about Redline over the last few years. Is it possible that Redline being ester based and polar, is stripping the wear metals out of the engine more than other oils? That would show more wear metals in a UOA...

 

[R.L.K.]

So I can't remember if this was discussed here as I've read so many threads about Redline over the last few years. Is it possible that Redline being ester based and polar, is stripping the wear metals out of the engine more than other oils? That would show more wear metals in a UOA...

I wouldn't think so ?

With the high Moly content of Redline oil it should be filling the microscopic scores and scratches from normal wear ...this should reduce the wear metal #s imo ?

I'm happy with my UOA of RL oil . My wear metals dropped 9 ppm , approximately 30% in just 6,000 miles using a 40wt RL oil

I'm not sure I understand what your saying by " stripping " the wear metals out of the oil ?
Could you elaborate Sir ?

 

[SyN]

From what I have seen over the years with other UOAs. M1 seems to always show high Iron #s. Copper some times is a bit above average as well (Depending on engine Design).

There has been thousands of comments on this with really Never NO true answer why. But the engines just keep showing up spotless & running strong for many hundreds of thousands of miles. With never an issue! That I have read about or heard about!

I have not seen this so far with PP or PUP & I am always looking.
I am by NO means saying I think PP / PUP oils are a better choice then M1. I honestly feel they are pretty much equal in quality.

The constant returning high Iron #s (or should I say higher then average) keeps thousands guessing & searching for answers.

I myself would use M1 in a heart beat if I didn't have access to PUP. This very well could happen in the future. M1 EP is an Extremly Robust line.

 

[Hemi395]

I wouldn't think so ?

With the high Moly content of Redline oil it should be filling the microscopic scores and scratches from normal wear ...this should reduce the wear metal #s imo ?

I'm happy with my UOA of RL oil . My wear metals dropped 9 ppm , approximately 30% in just 6,000 miles using a 40wt RL oil

I'm not sure I understand what your saying by " stripping " the wear metals out of the oil ?
Could you elaborate Sir ?

Maybe "stripping" was a poor choice of words. What I meant is if there were any wear metals left in the engine after say using bulk dealer oil for example. Then the engine gets Redline and being polar it slowly removes these metals...

 

[R.L.K.]

@Hemi395 , I see what your saying now !
That's a possibility, if my next uoa from my PUP PZ Program kit shows another significant drop in iron ( on my current RL OIL ) i'd say you might be on to something there with the polarity of the Redline oil .

My most recent ppm of iron was 16 ppm , (on my second run of RL) as for my current 3rd fill of RL oil I'm hoping for single digits next time !

Then hopefully the iron ppm stay consistently low or drop with the pup uoa !

 

[U&A]

Havw we seen any UOA's of Amsoil ss out of the 5.7?

How does it compare to PUP as far as wear numbers?

 

[Hemi395]

Havw we seen any UOA's of Amsoil ss out of the 5.7?

How does it compare to PUP as far as wear numbers?

This is a great point, I don't remember seeing any. Since SS has some ester content it should also grab onto metal...

 

[Burla]

There is something out there with high moly Esters versus copper, I'm not sure if it was oxidizing or just varnishing, I think light varnishing. This was a test with redline specifically and many brands and specifically copper. It wasn't the worst in the test, but it wasn't the best either. Some of that is probably in this thread somewhere, I tried to post everything. I don't know any relation to iron though. I do not know why, it could be the high level of moly for all I know, there is also some paper out there where high levels of moly can cause MINOR issues. One thing you can look at, is why is Redline is a shorter oil change interval them Amsoil SS, I would say average 18k R and 25K A, based on a few uoa's I have seen. The polarity of esters are very weak, as in esters tend to hunt metal, not like they stick like crazy.

Plus like I said, high zinc, zinc encourages wear and helps guard against it, crazy. One thing I think we've proven without a doubt it at least there are no seal issues with redline, UOA's and cut open filters that simply doesn't happen. And the heavy wear numbers is Hemi specific and not Redline specific, many brands in the Hemi all have the same numbers, it is just that I've seen a few PUP that were better then all of the other oils I've seen. So let's toss more guesses when us Redline guys get the numbers back from PUP, I can't wait. Sadly I know it will be a while.

Whatever we can say about Redline and wear, kinda makes me think about a mosquito bitting you after you hit the lotto. I mean dang my Hemi aint knocking anymore, a little wear I can handle in the face of that fate.

 

[U&A]

This is a great point, I don't remember seeing any. Since SS has some ester content it should also grab onto metal...

I would do it but id be no help at 6300 miles

 

[Burla]

Just a quick sample I show you, as you can tell not Redline, and I believe this is a Hemi in a Jeep. By Moly count could be old RP, dunno didn't really look. This is the type of things I see in every UOA in the Hemi even Redline, the one caviot is PUP numbers seam to be better, With that Boron could be Amsoil, I should go back and look.

 

[Burla]

Awe duh, look in the blank space, So you see Amsoil has a lot more wear then PP. So whatever, there it is. Look at FF, or factory fill, that had to be yellow, lol.

Look at that uoa, dang that is 20 weight and wear down from the 30's, lol. We can chat about that uoa for an hour. See that calcium level with the SS, that is why you can 25k miles on it.

 

[U&A]

Awe duh, look in the blank space, So you see Amsoil has a lot more wear then PP. So whatever, there it is. Look at FF, or factory fill, that had to be yellow, lol.

Look at that uoa, dang that is 20 weight and wear down from the 30's, lol. We can chat about that uoa for an hour. See that calcium level with the SS, that is why you can 25k miles on it.

Imo that UOA is a point if reference for the owner as the numbers drop because it has well under 25,000 miles on it when the SS was used. . That is what blackstone reccomends for an accurate judgment.

This is however JMO

 

[U&A]

Since we are talking about Pennzoil ultra platinum again, can i ask..

So the standing conversation is the wear numbers of Pennzoil Ultra platinum verse other oils. Others have noted that some oils remove the hemi tick but prove worse wear numbers.

Does anybody have an opinion as to why Pennzoil ultra platinum would provide great where numbers but still Produce such a high ammount of engine noise compared to redline, amsoil, Quaker State, am i missing any. It can't be just because it's slightly thin for weight. At least i dont think so.

Any thoughts?

Also what are your thoughts on the UOA that Burla posted?

 

[Hemi395]

I'm leaning towards what I posted earlier about esters grabbing metal in engines. This is pure speculation but from what I can tell PUP is either group 4 or a mix of group 3 and 4 so there's no metal affinity to speak of and therefore less wear numbers in the oil. Esters on the other hand are a great lubricant and most ester based oils have a great add pack so it tends to quiet noisy engines up.

The real question is are these esters creating more wear or just pulling the remaining wear metals out of a given engine. I remember reading one of the redline threads on Bobs about needing to run 5-6 Redline changes at a MINIMUM to get an accurate reading of wear numbers on a UOA. No one said why tho...

I hope for us with ticking Hemis it doesn't come down to no ticking or low wear metals...

 

[U&A]

we need a chemical engineer that specializes in this stuff!!

start recruiting!

 

[U&A]

looks like you may have a good "speculation" Hemi395. in the paragraph about esters lubricity it says just that.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/esters-in-synthetic-lubricants/Lubricity:

"Polarity also causes the ester molecules to be attracted to positively charged metal surfaces. As a result, the molecules tend to line up on the metal surface creating a film which requires additional energy (load) to wipe them off. The result is a stronger film which translates into higher lubricity and lower energy consumption in lubricant applications."

 

[R.L.K.]

I'd say engine noise is directly related to the oil weight. ..

A thicker viscosity oil has more FILM Strength ; therefore, less overall engine noise ?

The ++ weight of oil may or may not reduce the wear metals like a proposed 20 wt ( don't know )

Imo the perfect cenario is an oil that not only keeps the wear metals at bay but also has the film strength to keep the engine quiet .
I don't think this is asking too much with the oils available today . I HOPE this oil will be found during our 9-10 forum members participating in the PENZOIL UOA Program !

 

[BlueRT]

BITOG Link

I posted this link a few months back from BITOG addressing ester based oils and wear metal numbers on uoa's. Explains a lot.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2906981/1

 

[Sir John]

Wow , no offense Sir but that has been proven a non issue a thousand times . Here and on 100 other forums.

None taken. I don't read the forums like I used to. I occasionally peak into this thread, but you guys fill the pages up too soon and I don't have the time to catch up.

 

[Sir John]

You will have to send Gena a PM. I would go through BITOG! She visits there every day almost. I don't think she visits here that often.

She only has so many kits to grant. You might be a bit late.
If you hurry you might be one of the lucky ones.

Make sure you include in your message why you want to try PUP.

Yes she will send out any viscosity you request.

John: The MDS issue with nothing more then a 20wt myth has been busted all over the country. Though I have read about a couple of CEL with the use of other then a 20wt. NO matter what Some might say there are thousands of 5.7L owners out in the world today running other Wt oils other then a 20wt with 0 issues. Especially those within the RV forums who tow a lot all during the year.

My service manual (which is only a guideline to follow) Not the Holy Grail! Gives me permission to run a 30wt if a 20wt is not available. Funny thing is I just can not find a 20wt oil any where in my garage at the time of my OCI.

Just for the Record: I have ran a 30wt / 40wt mix since the 1K mile mark with No Issues Ever! At one time I thought I was pushing the envelope but after reflecting back----> It was only the Evil 20wt talk attempting to get in my head.

If you have been visiting this thread for a good long spell. Most will know that Raven did the leg work and proved that both the MDS systems with the 5.7L & 6.4L contain the SAME part numbers. Some or Most of the 6.4L with the MDS were spec for 0W-40. That was well enough proof for me!

Everyone of us have our own opinions / thoughts /beliefs / options! I am one who is not scared to exercise his other options.

I still today have ever been shown ANY proof (By Actual Data) that the 20wt oils Provide Less Wear Numbers! Reason why maybe it was not created for less wear but only CAFE! But with that said I will say I have never seen info that shows the 20wt oils produce more wear----->Within a Well Maintained / Well running motor (with low working miles).

I will say this probably hopefully for the last time. One thing to remember if I was only keeping my RAM for 2 to 4 years I would not give a flying flip what gas what oil what filter I was ever to use. It would not really matter. I myself have plans on keeping my RAM well into the 200,000 to 300,000 mile range. Every thing I do now is preventive maintenance to help get my RAM to those miles and passed.

John: I want you to know I do believe that within a daily driver such as drive to work / drive to church / drive to the grocery store / drive to school to pick up the kids and back home. I believe a 20wt oil is perfectly fine for a Ram.
For a ram that is going to be worked or abused which I mean hard towing or a decent amount of towing or just doing what a truck was meant to do I believe there are better options out there.

I for one am just exercising my options nothing more nothing less. Some agree with it some don't that is perfectly fine with me.

One thing I want everybody to remember! This is just one of my strongest believes. And believe me my beliefs are few and short within this wicked world of today.

Just because someone else thought of it and is doing it and you didn't and you are not doing it does not mean it's wrong.

Thanks SyN. I don't read the oil forums much anymore, so I definitely missed those talks. I'm thinking about ordering the Ultra Platinum off Amazon to try. I wish the local Walmart would sell it....it would be easier. I'm not sure if I will try the 30W, but I'm thinking about it. I don't work my truck like a truck 98% of the time. It's my daily driver. Also, it's very doubtful I will have it after 100,000 miles. I've never kept any vehicle that long...lol.