What is the best DEF/EGR delete kit?

[Scottly]

The thing is, you can't discuss the reasons that it's a bad idea without getting run off with torches and pitchforks here or anywhere else. It needs to change.

With proper lead-ins, you can. Try this: "I believe that...Because...", or, "It's my opinion that...", or, "Based on what I have experienced....", or the ultimate in politeness for a discussion, "YMMV.." Thumping your chest and proclaiming yourself the lord of the topic doesn't work well with internet discussions. This coming from a guy who participated in old Usenet groups back in the nineties.

 

[chri5k]

Nobody here has produced any data other than anecdotes and nobody will. It's the way most internet discussions go. I'm definitely not that worried about it. I can tell you the hot shot companies I deal with universally are opposed to deleting their trucks now.

The thing is, you can't discuss the reasons that it's a bad idea without getting run off with torches and pitchforks here or anywhere else. It needs to change.

You seem guilty of what you appear to accuse others of doing. Your posts on the issue contain anecdotes, emotion, victim hood and a bit of condescending attitude.

The Internet is a bit of a mirror, one often gets back what they give.

 

[oledirteh]

if the engineers are so good, you would think they would have figured out how to build transmission that lasts till warranty. but the engineers know what they are doing.

 

[2003F350]

if the engineers are so good, you would think they would have figured out how to build transmission that lasts till warranty. but the engineers know what they are doing.

So this is where the bean counters come in. See, an engineer would like to develop and release a product that won't fail for anyone and is overbuilt. However, bean counters don't typically like to spend the extra money. So a trade-off is developed, such that 90-95% of all users won't see a failure on most components.

So your transmission failing at 99,750 is actually considered a win for Chrysler, because there are a million other transmissions that didn't fail.

Is it right? No. Is it what they do in the interest of profits? Absolutely.

 

[oledirteh]

So this is where the bean counters come in. See, an engineer would like to develop and release a product that won't fail for anyone and is overbuilt. However, bean counters don't typically like to spend the extra money. So a trade-off is developed, such that 90-95% of all users won't see a failure on most components.

So your transmission failing at 99,750 is actually considered a win for Chrysler, because there are a million other transmissions that didn't fail.

Is it right? No. Is it what they do in the interest of profits? Absolutely.

id agree however ram since the 90s have had a rep for trash transmissions. the rep didnt stop at the 68rfe. Of the millions of trucks, it would be cool to know the amount of trans issues these trucks have had considering ive had several trans go since ive owned rams since 1999

 

[Riccochet]

One thing I know as fact. My old tuned 2001 F250 with the 7.3 powerstroke is still alive and kicking with the person I sold it to in 2005. Almost 800k miles on the engine. Of course none of the nanny state emissions garbage on it as that wasn't a thing in 2001. But it's power is turned WAY up via tuning. I believe the trans has been rebuilt once.

Every performance car I've owned and built has been tuned and very reliable.

And it is funny to me that he said "if you want it reliable leave it stock" proves he's never owned a Wrangler. LOL Or a BMW.

 

[2003F350]

id agree however ram since the 90s have had a rep for trash transmissions. the rep didnt stop at the 68rfe. Of the millions of trucks, it would be cool to know the amount of trans issues these trucks have had considering ive had several trans go since ive owned rams since 1999

Again, that's the bean counters who took over back in the 80's. Remember Chrysler's little K cars? Those were built specifically at the direction of the bean counters. Arguably saved the company from bankruptcy but every piece of them was designed so that 90-95% wouldn't have failures. That's basically been the formula since then, with a few exceptions here and there.

The failure rate is likely in that same range, and a lot of it has to do with the operator. If you are pushing into the higher limits of what the vehicle was designed for in one way or another, you're starting to fall into that 5-10% range of people who will have a problem.

Again, it SHOULD be able to handle it, but when it comes to modern mass production, the limit isn't really where it should be from a customer standpoint. It is right where it should be from a business standpoint, and if they could find a way to lower it without incurring more costs, they would.

 

[Scottly]

it would be cool to know the amount of trans issues

They just tried to show that at the opening ceremonies for the Olympics.

 

[nlambert182]

Nobody here has produced any data other than anecdotes and nobody will. It's the way most internet discussions go. I'm definitely not that worried about it. I can tell you the hot shot companies I deal with universally are opposed to deleting their trucks now.

The thing is, you can't discuss the reasons that it's a bad idea without getting run off with torches and pitchforks here or anywhere else. It needs to change.

Yes... because hot shotters get stopped by DOT. I don't blame them. That doesn't mean it won't work for the average Joe.

I'd still like to know how you know for certain that all of the delete tunes are dangerous. Just like to hear how you are able to confirm that.

 

[nlambert182]

I'll also say from first hand experience working as a service writer in a diesel truck shop that I can only count 1 time that a tune killed a deleted truck... and it was mine. 2008 F250 Powerstroke. Guy brought it in for us to work on because it was puking coolant. 980 HP to the wheels... blew the head gaskets on the 6.4.

Aside from that on stock level tunes there just weren't issues. While I can't print out all of the old tickets that passed through the shop I saw hundreds of deleted trucks come through in the course of a year. None for delete issues.

 

[Choupique]

still like to know how you know for certain that all of the delete tunes are dangerous. Just like to hear how you are able to confirm that.

No, I do not believe i ever said that. I have said no delete tunes carry the same level of testing and validation that factory software carries which is absolutely true. It's a dice roll.

It universally carries the risk of the tuner going out of business, not being able to get support, not really knowing what you are getting, etc. The cons list is a mile and a half long. It's not 2012 anymore, where you got 12mpg and with the dpf and 23mpg without it.

It's a massive risk to take on something so expensive.

 

[Scottly]

I have said no delete tunes carry the same level of testing and validation that factory software carries which is absolutely true. It's a dice roll.

The same level as, say...CrowdStrike did last week? They blue screened every machine that had the update installed, with no way to push a repair out...Manual file delete only. A poop storm, worldwide. On that note, if the tune/delete software code is flawed, I would think it would rear it's head immediately. Otherwise, unless you're dumb enough to allow a factory re-flash, you're all set on the go-forward.

 

[chri5k]

No, I do not believe i ever said that. I have said no delete tunes carry the same level of testing and validation that factory software carries which is absolutely true. It's a dice roll.

It universally carries the risk of the tuner going out of business, not being able to get support, not really knowing what you are getting, etc. The cons list is a mile and a half long. It's not 2012 anymore, where you got 12mpg and with the dpf and 23mpg without it.

It's a massive risk to take on something so expensive.

Now the point about the tuner (person) going out of business voluntarily or involuntarily is a point I can agree with and have made to folks seeking to tune their truck.

The flip side to that coin is if you don’t make changes to the configuration of the truck that the tune is written for, then it is a moot point.

Hot rodders and racers who make frequent changes to their rig need to be concerned about the viability of the tuners business model. Someone who just wants to get rid of the emissions stuff, not so much. It is not like the tune just goes “bad” for some unknown reason and needs to be refreshed.

 

[Choupique]

same level as, say...CrowdStrike did last week? They blue screened every machine that had the update installed

You're making my point for me here.

 

[Scottly]

You're making my point for me here.

No, you're too arrogant to see mine.

 

[oledirteh]

majority of people that are running a tune on deleted trucks are tuning out the emissions aspect of the truck. that's the point. If you are truly concerned about a tuner bricking your truck, then get a second ecu and tune that.

 

[nlambert182]

Exactly.... if the tune is bad, you'll know it pretty much immediately. Buy from a reputable tuner and even if they go out of business, unless you want to modify the truck more down the road, it will last as long as the truck. For me, I use H&S. They've been around forever and their stock HP tune is extremely reliable. I've never needed a re-flash, etc.. but even if I did... the tune is on my module and isn't connected to anything that would receive an update. The tune that I received when I purchased will be the same firmware version in 5 years. Unless you're allowing someone into your PCM real time there isn't much likelihood that a crowdstrike type incident could occur. I think that was the point Scottly was making.

 

[nlambert182]

majority of people that are running a tune on deleted trucks are tuning out the emissions aspect of the truck. that's the point. If you are truly concerned about a tuner bricking your truck, then get a second ecu and tune that.

Even so... the first thing my tuners do is make a backup of the factory tune so that IF a brick were to occur, you can literally flash the stock tune back onto the truck. They build in a failsafe.

 

[Riccochet]

Exactly.... if the tune is bad, you'll know it pretty much immediately. Buy from a reputable tuner and even if they go out of business, unless you want to modify the truck more down the road, it will last as long as the truck. For me, I use H&S. They've been around forever and their stock HP tune is extremely reliable. I've never needed a re-flash, etc.. but even if I did... the tune is on my module and isn't connected to anything that would receive an update. The tune that I received when I purchased will be the same firmware version in 5 years. Unless you're allowing someone into your PCM real time there isn't much likelihood that a crowdstrike type incident could occur. I think that was the point Scottly was making.

When I whippled my 1500 I worked with jay greene on dialing it in. We took it slow though. A LOT of logging and adjustments. Got it dialed though, perfect AFR throughout the RPM range. It was a pretty conservative tune considering what I had in the engine and what it could produce. 8HP70 being the limiting factor. We tuned that as well.

Truck was 100% reliable for the 3 years I had it pushing boost. Seriously considering throwing a whipple on the 6.4. That'd be interesting.

 

[Riccochet]

Even so... the first thing my tuners do is make a backup of the factory tune so that IF a brick were to occur, you can literally flash the stock tune back onto the truck. They build in a failsafe.

I bought an unlocked ECU. That way the stock one was untouched. They're like $800 and worth every penny.