CTD Flaw: Heater Grid Bolt

[crash68]

Diesels love heat.

It's more like they need the heat when it's cold out to help the engine start. Unlike a gas engine that uses a combustible fuel/air mixture that ignited with a spark plug, a diesel uses just the heat developed when the piston compresses the air in the cylinder (fuel is injected directly into the cylinder once the air is compressed).
Hemi owners have a more likely of wiping out a cam/lifter than the grid heater bolt on a Cummins failing.

 

[BossHogg]

It's more like they need the heat when it's cold out to help the engine start.

A lot of the off-road YouTube channels I watch show the guys with a torch heating up the air intake to help the start. The older diesel's that used a pony engine for starting ported the pony's engine exhaust out through a pipe that was routed through the air intake to help heat up the intake air.

I'd like to know, just out of curiosity, how many grid heaters have failed and taken out an engine versus the number of 6.7 ISBs that use the same grid heater. Likely a number no one will know. Another data point to consider is how and when is the grid heater used across the other platforms that use the ISB. Does RAM implement its grid heater strategy differently than others that use the engine?

I've paid attention to RAM ****** cold starts in ambient temperatures in the mid-50s, the grid heater isn't used before the engine starts but once the engine starts, the grid heater is cycled on and off quite a bit. I watch a volt meter, you can see a voltage drop when the grid heater is turned on.

Does anyone know what the cold engine start strategy is for a Cummins?

 

[Goose55]

We're In N Arizona and our delayed start count down for the grid heater still comes on every morning this time of year, i believe it comes on anytime it's below 60 * outside. Yah know the old wait to start for glow plugs light

I don't like using that grid heater. I prefer to plug in the block heater. Draining cold batteries can't be good.

 

[crash68]

I don't like using that grid heater. I prefer to plug in the block heater. Draining cold batteries can't be good.

Unless you disconnect the grid heater, this isn't an option as the truck turns it on whether you like it or not. It's leaving batteries discharged isn't good for them.

You wonder why someone refers to you as paranoid, it's a culmination of statements you've made similar to this.

 

[JessJoe]

Completely false info from that guy on what the actual issue is and he has no idea what he is talking about.

No offense but everyone of your posts lately is going down these conspiracy theory rabbit holes. Stop "looking" for issues with the CTD and just drive it....

Yes, the bolt "can" be an issue but the number of actual failures is minuet, the internet has blown this WAAAY out of proportion and looking to panic people, especially those that stand to profit from "solutions" (like deleting it).

The real issue is the bolt can come loose or was not tight from the factory, this in turn causes a poor electrical connection so when the grid heater turns on it will draw excess current and can basically arc or weld the nut until it melts and falls off. Again, Very very rare but it has happened.

The easy solution is to check the cable (wiggle it to see if it is loose) at every oil change. That will give you peace of mind that it is fine.

.

Please describe or send photo of the cable that should be checked. Thank you for your information

 

[jvbuttex]

I don't like using that grid heater. I prefer to plug in the block heater. Draining cold batteries can't be good.

why do you say your draining the batteries. With the size of double batteries, i think your far from draining them. Using them, sure. draining. don't think so. Is that what you meant by "draining"?

 

[mtnrider]

Please describe or send photo of the cable that should be checked. Thank you for your information

This is the cable you want to check. The intake is removed in this picture but you can see where the cable is. Just give it a little wiggle and see it the connection is loose.

 

[Choupique]

And to think some dude came on this thread demeaning me, calling me paranoid, etc. THAT was not helpful

Well, he was right. I share some of his frustrations. I've got a lot of professional experience with diesel engines, and that guy knows what he's talking about.

No insult intended here, but you clearly don't have a whole lot of technical understanding about how these engine systems work. Your concerns are often misplaced, and it gives off the impression that you are clicking around on the internet looking for things to worry about.

You've got a hell of a nice truck. Enjoy it. You should worry about bad fuel, crystallized DEF, crappy electronics and idiotic service techs who were given a day of training and then told to service your truck. All of those are far more likely to cause you trouble and cost you money than the design of that engine is.

 

[nlambert182]

I think the OP understands now. He was under the impression that the grid heater and the block heaters did the same job and as such, one wasn't needed. We've elaborated on this and I think he understands the difference now. He doesn't have much technical knowledge on these trucks but at some point, neither did we. I think once he learns the forum dynamic along with gaining more knowledge on his truck, he will be all set.

I try not to hammer on the new folks too hard because I remember the days when I didn't know anything about them too. Hopefully he will learn to use our experiences to help in his quest for knowledge. Let's face it... we don't always agree on the same things (towing is a GREAT example) and sometimes those arguments take away from a new person's learning experience. I think a little grace is warranted from time to time.

 

[Choupique]

Yep. No insult intended, hope it didn't come across as one. OP posts a lot about the potential flaws and problems with his diesel truck. They're certainly expensive and complicated and warrant some concern. I'm sure mountainrider was suggesting OP worry less and drive more and was not intending to insult anyone's intelligence.

 

[vlamgat]

It's more like they need the heat when it's cold out to help the engine start. Unlike a gas engine that uses a combustible fuel/air mixture that ignited with a spark plug, a diesel uses just the heat developed when the piston compresses the air in the cylinder (fuel is injected directly into the cylinder once the air is compressed).
Hemi owners have a more likely of wiping out a cam/lifter than the grid heater bolt on a Cummins failing.

There are 2 elements to the diesel's heat requirements in temperatures below 40F: the intake temperature to facilitate ignition using cold air and cold fuel. My raising the air temperature, better ignition is accomplished, which reduces emissions. Meantime the oil pump is sucking cold oil into the galleries which is also contributing to emissions and reducing the effectiveness of lubrication. This is especially poor practice if the vehicle is driven robustly before the oil reaches 150F or above. So to deal with but not eliminate that problem, we have a block heater that mainly keeps the coolant warm which in turn raises the oil temperature. I notice a huge difference is start up performance on my 2001 PSD 7.3 when I use the block heater below 40F and it struggles to start without strong batteries below 30F. Big difference on the Cummins too.
Synthethic oil with a low viscosity moniker of 0, 5 or 10 obviously helps but the heater use still make a vast difference to battery load and ease of start. On big marine and off road diesels, they cannot be started below 40F without considerable pre heat using donkey engines and electric elements. Obviously different oils and fuels but the principles also apply to our on-road vehicles.

 

[tgrfan2]

Actually, many drivers in cold climates turn on their lights to "warm up" the batteries before hitting them with the draw of a starter.
I haven't read every post on this forum yet but questioning these questions about CTD problems seems over the top.
I fixed the killer dowel pin on my '98 12 valve and checked which block I had. I had my 2011 Durango Hemi eat the cam at 92K. My 2004 Hemi 1500 was still running strong when I sold it at 140K. My 2008 Aspen Hemi is still running strong at 292K!
I bought my 2018 CTD 3500 from a dealer 150 miles away. It had 8800 miles on it. The check engine light came on before I got home. It was the grid heater!
At 67K I haven't had the problem again.
Even my JDs had known problems to look out for over the years. Even the classic 4020!
I think some of us could lighten up a bit when someone asks questions. We might even learn something!

 

[Goose55]

I think the OP understands now. He was under the impression that the grid heater and the block heaters did the same job and as such, one wasn't needed. We've elaborated on this and I think he understands the difference now. He doesn't have much technical knowledge on these trucks but at some point, neither did we. I think once he learns the forum dynamic along with gaining more knowledge on his truck, he will be all set.

I try not to hammer on the new folks too hard because I remember the days when I didn't know anything about them too. Hopefully he will learn to use our experiences to help in his quest for knowledge. Let's face it... we don't always agree on the same things (towing is a GREAT example) and sometimes those arguments take away from a new person's learning experience. I think a little grace is warranted from time to time.

Thanks, Mr. Lambert

 

[vlamgat]

Thanks, Mr. Lambert

I understand your need for empathy towards neophytes but get frustrated by the number who make no effort before they hit the key board. Most OMs deal with many of the issues/questions posted here. Obviously this is a more complex subject.

 

[Kellyl97]

So I’m considering putting this banks system on my 2017, since I get the great good fortune of a new engine due to the much debated as to “how big of a problem the stupid grid heater bolt” is… my engine fell to the bolt. While people seem to argue the bolt isn’t a problem, my truck sitting at the shop with a munched piston 6 says otherwise so you won’t convince me it’s “not an issue”. My debate is now, do I lower my risk of recurrence to zero? I mean, I’m already dropping 18k on the repair, what’s another grand on the update to the banks system?

 

[Goose55]

So I’m considering putting this banks system on my 2017, since I get the great good fortune of a new engine due to the much debated as to “how big of a problem the stupid grid heater bolt” is… my engine fell to the bolt. While people seem to argue the bolt isn’t a problem, my truck sitting at the shop with a munched piston 6 says otherwise so you won’t convince me it’s “not an issue”. My debate is now, do I lower my risk of recurrence to zero? I mean, I’m already dropping 18k on the repair, what’s another grand on the update to the banks system?

wOw. Sorry it happened to you! It should anger all of us here. I have set it as a priority to check and keep an eye on that ******** stupid bolt.

 

[Goose55]

I understand your need for empathy towards neophytes but get frustrated by the number who make no effort before they hit the key board. Most OMs deal with many of the issues/questions posted here. Obviously this is a more complex subject.

hUh?

 

[Olsonm1952]

Completely false info from that guy on what the actual issue is and he has no idea what he is talking about.

No offense but everyone of your posts lately is going down these conspiracy theory rabbit holes. Stop "looking" for issues with the CTD and just drive it....

Yes, the bolt "can" be an issue but the number of actual failures is minuet, the internet has blown this WAAAY out of proportion and looking to panic people, especially those that stand to profit from "solutions" (like deleting it).

The real issue is the bolt can come loose or was not tight from the factory, this in turn causes a poor electrical connection so when the grid heater turns on it will draw excess current and can basically arc or weld the nut until it melts and falls off. Again, Very very rare but it has happened.

The easy solution is to check the cable (wiggle it to see if it is loose) at every oil change. That will give you peace of mind that it is fine.

.

That a great Idea if you Knew that it was an Issue.. I’m replacing the engine on my 2013 6.7 because of the Heater Bolt Failure at 120,200 miles. I have my oil changed at the dealer every 10,000 miles and not one service writer or tech suggested or wiggled the bolt”.. They manage to always tell me that I need a new air filter.. My new Jasper remanufactured engine should be her in a couple of week’s.. I’m having the Banks system installed with it.. You would think Ram would have their Tech’s check it during a oil change.. If any one hears of a recall or a class action suit.
I’ll be one of the first to respond to it.

 

[nlambert182]

That a great Idea if you Knew that it was an Issue.. I’m replacing the engine on my 2013 6.7 because of the Heater Bolt Failure at 120,200 miles. I have my oil changed at the dealer every 10,000 miles and not one service writer or tech suggested or wiggled the bolt”.. They manage to always tell me that I need a new air filter.. My new Jasper remanufactured engine should be her in a couple of week’s.. I’m having the Banks system installed with it.. You would think Ram would have their Tech’s check it during a oil change.. If any one hears of a recall or a class action suit.
I’ll be one of the first to respond to it.

Sorry that happened to you... it's just not a widely seen issue. I know, it seems like it when it's you.. but it's really not common. There are a couple hundred thousand 6.7s on the road. It's likely way less than 1% of those have experienced the failure.

Unless you just like empty pockets, there are other grid heater delete kits that are half the cost if you just feel like you need one. It would be doubtful to see a heater bolt failure twice, but all things are possible.

 

[2003F350]

That a great Idea if you Knew that it was an Issue.. I’m replacing the engine on my 2013 6.7 because of the Heater Bolt Failure at 120,200 miles. I have my oil changed at the dealer every 10,000 miles and not one service writer or tech suggested or wiggled the bolt”.. They manage to always tell me that I need a new air filter.. My new Jasper remanufactured engine should be her in a couple of week’s.. I’m having the Banks system installed with it.. You would think Ram would have their Tech’s check it during a oil change.. If any one hears of a recall or a class action suit.
I’ll be one of the first to respond to it.

Why would you go with a Jasper rebuild? They are basically junk, I wouldn't put one on my lawnmower.

As for the bolt loosening up, it sucks that it happened to you but you are in a SLIM minority of people with issues. I have the dealer do basically all my service work nowadays, but even so I pop the hood every few weeks to check things out, look for anything loose/out of place, clean, etc. I crawl under the truck and do the same.