Custom rear springs?

[R/T_Fire]

well i need to measure the rear coils, they would probably only be +5" over stock length. I forget what the superlift length is.
As for everything else...not a clue! Thats why i pay someone to design them! hahaha

Yeah, I'm just curious where is the height being to high point is. I wonder if a old skyjacker 7" lift on a old 2nd gen would work or be close to working for you? I know they are from the front but not sure the diameters or spring rates but just a thought, maybe a starting point? I'm willing to bet the spring cup diameter is pretty close if not the same

 

[kg93]

Yeah, I'm just curious where is the height being to high point is. I wonder if a old skyjacker 7" lift on a old 2nd gen would work or be close to working for you? I know they are from the front but not sure the diameters or spring rates but just a thought, maybe a starting point? I'm willing to bet the spring cup diameter is pretty close if not the same

ah i got what you're saying. I'm not sure. But if you can lift a HD truck with coil springs 8"+ i don't see why you would have a problem with the rear of our trucks.

I think the biggest problem is that companies don't want to invest in the R&D for the rams. I'm not sure why since they do it for chevys and fords and tundras.

But as for the old 2nd gen, maybe they would be the same. The zf is basically a d44 in that respect. I'm not sure what the front of the 2nd gens were but i think it would be more of a problem of drop brackets at that point. Anything is possible with enough time, research..and lots of money.

 

[R/T_Fire]

Very true, brackets are somewhat easy to fab. Its the engineering that is the hard part. Still might want to send Don (Thuren fab) a message and pick his brain. Last time i talked to him (email) he was focusing on the dodge rear coils, granted they are HD but im guessing there isnt much diff in them when it comes to shape just in rate and capacity. Good luck in your reseach and project. Building 1 off custom stuff is a huge expensive endevour, but worth it in the end.

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[kg93]

I was talking to Don but he didn't want to take the job. He didn't feel comfortable building coilovers and shocks for a lifted truck. He said he wouldn't know how to build them correctly since he deals with lower high speed trucks.

I didn't bother trying to convince him to do it since he obviously didn't want to try to.

Right now I'm having Filthy Motorsports do it.

 

[Mauzz]

From talking with Don and a few others it seems like 3" is about optimum for running these trucks off road. 3" should let you clear some 37 inch tires depending on your offset and a little wider stance will help with stability anyway and help compensate for elevating you center of gravity. If you are desert running you can then valve your shocks and add some bump stops to make the truck fly if you like.

The problem for serious trail running (besides the no lockers etc) is that the wheel base is just too long. Even the single cab short bed is 120 inches, the crew cab is 140. I had a JKU (the 4 door) with a 4" lift and 35 inch tires and that wheel base was around 115" which I personally think is still about 10 inches too long. Somewhere around 105" is the sweet spot for stability on steep climbs and not getting high centered on ledges.

No Problem, No Problem....Turtle and that's 25 inches shorter wheelbase than my CC

 

[kg93]

I'm more or less looking to make my truck perform nicely all around. Being in NJ i don't really have any terrain that i need to climb. Very few things to get high centered on.
I was originally going to get a JKU but i liked the power of the hemi too much, and i figured i would be better with its towing capacity vs the jeep.

If i really wanted something that could climb and had a short wheel base i would just get a RZR or something.

 

[Mauzz]

So whats the motivation for 9" high in the front and 6" high in the rear? Besides looking awesome I mean? The higher it goes the worse your cornering is going to get and at 6 inches in the rear you are going to have to choose between aligning the pinion with the drive shaft for good power translation or keeping the right amount of caster on your rear axle to keep your springs from bowing back.

 

[kg93]

So whats the motivation for 9" high in the front and 6" high in the rear? Besides looking awesome I mean? The higher it goes the worse your cornering is going to get and at 6 inches in the rear you are going to have to choose between aligning the pinion with the drive shaft for good power translation or keeping the right amount of caster on your rear axle to keep your springs from bowing back.

well i already am lifted that high, so its going to stay that high now. My cornering isn't bad imo. I'm not looking to be a desert racer so that isn't a serious issue anyway.

Here in NJ we have mud and sand. So i like the height to clear mud pits (yes i need clearance in that respect, not climbing over rocks) It is more of 7.8" up front and 5" in the rear and a 3" body lift.

I'm looking to make the offroad ride much more pleasant with this custom stuff. Ill be able to drive over whoops without going less then 10 and not feel like my back is breaking or my truck. Will I be able to do a high speed right turn at the same time? not at all and i wouldn't expect to be able to at my height.

Are you saying you don't think I shouldn't even bother with the sphon adjustable arms and panhard? Anyone else feel that way?

 

[R/T_Fire]

Are you saying you don't think I shouldn't even bother with the sphon adjustable arms and panhard? Anyone else feel that way?

Honestly I think the spohns are too short for what you need.

I also think for your set up and desire a triangulated long arm 4 link set up would be the thing to look into. Easy to fab and easy to integrate the coils or coil over... for ease of fab and cost I kinda think off the top of my head coil over and such is really the cheapest most viable option for what you are looking for. A triangulated 4 link coilover is a proven set up on and off road with custom lifts. Just my .02 not trying to talk you out of it. but definitely think you need to look into some longer than stock location arms. longer the better for the whoops you mentioned.

 

[kg93]

so you think i should go with something like this

Now i don't think that would cost an insane amount. But would a long arm set up really benefit my that much? considering my front end isn't a long travel and i don't really have any intentions on making it one. I've been thinking about the rear coil over option, ill just need to get some prices from a few shops.


Edit: after looking at my rear control arms real quick a setup like that will not work due to the gas tank being I the way. So without a lot a fab and a new gas tank that seems to be out. What about coilovers and sphons

 

[Mauzz]

What are you using now to set the location and caster of your rear axle? Do you have frame side drop brackets and cam bolts?

As far as the control arms go, you can get better articulation out of aftermarket arms but you typically sacrifice ride quality. The stock joints use a thick rubber bushings to absorb noise, vibration and harshness (the dreaded NVH) encountered by the axle from translating into the frame through the links. While you will definitely have a stronger setup with the new arms the truck should actually ride a little rougher when you lose the dampening from those bushings.

The only off road joint I've found that maintains (or improves) ride quality are the metalcloak duroflex joints. They retain a lot of the characteristics of the stock rubber bushings but allow for much better articulation.
2 5/8" OD x 2 5/8" W Duroflex Joint, 1 1/4" Straight Spud

That being said articulation is probably not that critical for your application (rarely going to have 1 tire stuffed and the other drooped in sand or mud) so unless you have an issue keeping your axle aligned (cam's keeping turning loose on you) I would probably just let the shocks do their work and keep the stock arms/track bar.

 

[kg93]

What are you using now to set the location and caster of your rear axle? Do you have frame side drop brackets and cam bolts?

As far as the control arms go, you can get better articulation out of aftermarket arms but you typically sacrifice ride quality. The stock joints use a thick rubber bushings to absorb noise, vibration and harshness (the dreaded NVH) encountered by the axle from translating into the frame through the links. While you will definitely have a stronger setup with the new arms the truck should actually ride a little rougher when you lose the dampening from those bushings.

The only off road joint I've found that maintains (or improves) ride quality are the metalcloak duroflex joints. They retain a lot of the characteristics of the stock rubber bushings but allow for much better articulation.
2 5/8" OD x 2 5/8" W Duroflex Joint, 1 1/4" Straight Spud

That being said articulation is probably not that critical for your application (rarely going to have 1 tire stuffed and the other drooped in sand or mud) so unless you have an issue keeping your axle aligned (cam's keeping turning loose on you) I would probably just let the shocks do their work and keep the stock arms/track bar.

the superlift kit has drop brackets but no cam bolts or anything. I see what you're saying about the bushings. I haven't heard anyone complaining about the sphons but those are all lowered applications that i see them on.

this is what my rear suspension looks like

 

[Mauzz]

the superlift kit has drop brackets but no cam bolts or anything. I see what you're saying about the bushings. I haven't heard anyone complaining about the sphons but those are all lowered applications that i see them on.

this is what my rear suspension looks like

Yeah and I cant imagine lowered applications run into the same kinds of bumps that we do!

So in general you adjust the front to back location of your axle with the lower control arms and your caster with your upper control arms. Your axle looks like its in the right spot front to back and the caster seems to be set to align your pinion with the driveshaft, which is all good.

The problem with going high on coil spring axles is shown in your first picture where you can see the spring bowed back. As you rotate the axle back to align with the higher angle on the drive shaft your coil spring buckets rotate back as well so the lower spring pad is now angled toward the back of the truck instead of straight up. Its not a huge problem as long as the springs aren't touching anything else but the ride will be softer as part of the spring is pushing forward and not up. You should also be a little careful in large droop situations as the axle swings forward and since your springs are already pointing a little backward they will want to unseat more easily.

As far as I know the only 2 ways to fix this are to cut the lower mounts off the axle tube, twist them forward, and reweld but by the time youre talking about welding i vote for coilovers. The other option is to install wedges. I haven't seen them specifically for our trucks but this is a well know issue for the jeep JK.

Synergy Jeep JK Rear Coil Wedges

Also as a last question for my own curiosity they did provide a bracket for the rear track bar right? Either a frame side drop or axle side lift bracket? If you look into custom lift options you should probably get an adjustable trackbar so you can fine tune your axle location side to side.

Edit: and I forgot the whole point of the discussion being that adjustable arms would let you keep your axle aligned as it is without the control arm brackets. That being said there is some validity to the argument that the drop brackets move your links closer to horizontal so you are in a better spot for down travel. If you're not hitting the brackets on anything I would just call it good and save yourself the money to spend on your front UCAs!

 

[kg93]

Yeah and I cant imagine lowered applications run into the same kinds of bumps that we do!

So in general you adjust the front to back location of your axle with the lower control arms and your caster with your upper control arms. Your axle looks like its in the right spot front to back and the caster seems to be set to align your pinion with the driveshaft, which is all good.

The problem with going high on coil spring axles is shown in your first picture where you can see the spring bowed back. As you rotate the axle back to align with the higher angle on the drive shaft your coil spring buckets rotate back as well so the lower spring pad is now angled toward the back of the truck instead of straight up. Its not a huge problem as long as the springs aren't touching anything else but the ride will be softer as part of the spring is pushing forward and not up. You should also be a little careful in large droop situations as the axle swings forward and since your springs are already pointing a little backward they will want to unseat more easily.

As far as I know the only 2 ways to fix this are to cut the lower mounts off the axle tube, twist them forward, and reweld but by the time youre talking about welding i vote for coilovers. The other option is to install wedges. I haven't seen them specifically for our trucks but this is a well know issue for the jeep JK.

Synergy Jeep JK Rear Coil Wedges

Also as a last question for my own curiosity they did provide a bracket for the rear track bar right? Either a frame side drop or axle side lift bracket? If you look into custom lift options you should probably get an adjustable trackbar so you can fine tune your axle location side to side.

Thanks for the info. So your saying i would be good going with this Spohn Performance Adjustable Rear Panhard Bar - 2009-Up Ram 1500 2WD/4WD

I might email that site and see if those spacers would work for the ram, i dont see why they wouldnt? Probably wouldnt be that expensive to make anyway.
Idk why they don't have something like that specifically for our trucks.

and yes it has a bracket for the track bar on the frame side

 

[R/T_Fire]

this is what my rear suspension looks like

That scare the hell outa me...

Mostly the reason for the longer arms or even a radius arm is to lessen the angle of the control arm. The higher you go the steeper the angle the less performance and ride quality you will get.

With your height changes and to keep pinion angle workable I would look at one of two thing, either redo your driveshaft and put in a constant velocity joint at the trans and adjust your axle to lesson that harsh angle on the spring cup.
But really I would look at changing the spring cup or perch on the axle to put it in line parallel with the upper spring mount. It may actually ride a little better and gain you a little height, since you are loosing a little (prob not much) due to the arch in the coil.

And I didn't think about the Fuel tank obstruction, but a bracket /crossmember could be made to lower the mount to under the frame. that link I posted was just for reference., I don't remember how far down these tanks hang under the frame though.. still might not be possible.

 

[R/T_Fire]

Looking back at your pics the control arm angle doesn't look to bad... can you snap a shot of just the arm angle?

If they don't look super steep, then the spohns will prob be just fine or just look into a shop making you some of your own arms using a Johnny joint on one end and a regular rubber urethane bushing on the other.

But I think relooking the spohns should be good.

 

[kg93]

That scare the hell outa me...

Mostly the reason for the longer arms or even a radius arm is to lessen the angle of the control arm. The higher you go the steeper the angle the less performance and ride quality you will get.

With your height changes and to keep pinion angle workable I would look at one of two thing, either redo your driveshaft and put in a constant velocity joint at the trans and adjust your axle to lesson that harsh angle on the spring cup.
But really I would look at changing the spring cup or perch on the axle to put it in line parallel with the upper spring mount. It may actually ride a little better and gain you a little height, since you are loosing a little (prob not much) due to the arch in the coil.

And I didn't think about the Fuel tank obstruction, but a bracket /crossmember could be made to lower the mount to under the frame. that link I posted was just for reference., I don't remember how far down these tanks hang under the frame though.. still might not be possible.

tbh the angle of the spring is not as bad as it looks in the picture. I think one of those coil wedges would fix it.

as or the gas tank, it obstructs the drivers side way too much. if i had a bracket below it it would have to be almost scraping the ground.

Looking back at your pics the control arm angle doesn't look to bad... can you snap a shot of just the arm angle?

If they don't look super steep, then the spohns will prob be just fine or just look into a shop making you some of your own arms using a Johnny joint on one end and a regular rubber urethane bushing on the other.

But I think relooking the spohns should be good.

ill have to get a pic tomorrow, i dont feel like going out in the rain

 

[kg93]

So in the spirit of how this thread is going, how does no one make a angle correction spacer for rams? No wonder I never knew about it.

No one makes a spring retainer either, might have to go ghetto and to what some jeep guys do and use a hose clamp

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[Mauzz]

So in the spirit of how this thread is going, how does no one make a angle correction spacer for rams? No wonder I never knew about it.

No one makes a spring retainer either, might have to go ghetto and to what some jeep guys do and use a hose clamp

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Lol I was just snooping around the metalcloak website looking for some disconnects for Austin and I found these....

JK Wrangler Rear Coil Spring Alignment Correction/Retainer

I'm still amazed that more jeep companies haven't come out with rear suspension upgrades for the 1500s. Especially the rear just inst that different.

 

[kg93]

Lol I was just snooping around the metalcloak website looking for some disconnects for Austin and I found these....

JK Wrangler Rear Coil Spring Alignment Correction/Retainer

I'm still amazed that more jeep companies haven't come out with rear suspension upgrades for the 1500s. Especially the rear just inst that different.

i have to look at our bottom spring perch. I don't see why the ZF would have different mounts than the d44 but with our luck on modding our trucks...it will be different

but solid find, that would be perfect with a limiting strap