Level - Do I need springs?

[thirstybob]

There's nothing odd about what I heard from Carli. Maybe that's the difference between the two.

 

[reloaderguy]

There's nothing odd about what I heard from Carli. Maybe that's the difference between the two.

It isn't easier to go with spacers, it is cheaper. If you are experiencing cupping you should have your alignment checked. neither springs nor spacers cause cupping.

Whether or not to use radius arm drops is the philosophical difference between Carli and Thuren. The lower radius arm angle (drops) should have better small bump compliance but well tuned shocks should make up for the added angle (without drops). A case could be made for either.

 

[SwollenMonkey16]

There's nothing odd about what I heard from Carli. Maybe that's the difference between the two.

Whoa no need to get booty hurt about it. It was a simple statement as I've been doing a lot of research. They are both great companies just pick one and roll with it.

 

[maxsteel]

Sorry, took me awhile to get some pics online. Excuse the dirty truck, hard to keep clean this time of year.

 

[thirstybob]

Whoa no need to get booty hurt about it. It was a simple statement as I've been doing a lot of research. They are both great companies just pick one and roll with it.

Whoa yourself. No booty hurt about it. It would be nice if we could find some consistent information because I've been doing quite a bit of research myself. I'd like to understand why I can put a 3" spacer on my OEM springs with nothing more than shock extension brackets and an alignment but according to Carli, I can't replace my stock springs with a 3"taller spring without an ATB and radius arm drop brackets.
I like to think of us as all friends here. I appreciate other's point of view.

 

[thirstybob]

Sorry, took me awhile to get some pics online. Excuse the dirty truck, hard to keep clean this time of year.

Looks good!

 

[reloaderguy]

Whoa yourself. No booty hurt about it. It would be nice if we could find some consistent information because I've been doing quite a bit of research myself. I'd like to understand why I can put a 3" spacer on my OEM springs with nothing more than shock extension brackets and an alignment but according to Carli, I can't replace my stock springs with a 3"taller spring without an ATB and radius arm drop brackets.
I like to think of us as all friends here. I appreciate other's point of view.

A 3" spacer and shock extension is a bad idea. You will reach coil bind before you contact the bump stops, that means you will bottom out the springs. A 3" kit should include an adjustable track bar, the exception to this is if you have a Power Wagon OEM track bar which is the maximum length you can run. There are a number of different companies that offer 3" kits without radius arm drops, Carli advocates the drops because it returns the arms to OE angles and allows correct caster adjustment. I have a full Thuren kit and have correct caster adjustment and better than stock ride.

Personally I think spacers and shock extensions are a bad idea.

 

[thirstybob]

A 3" spacer and shock extension is a bad idea. You will reach coil bind before you contact the bump stops, that means you will bottom out the springs. A 3" kit should include an adjustable track bar, the exception to this is if you have a Power Wagon OEM track bar which is the maximum length you can run. There are a number of different companies that offer 3" kits without radius arm drops, Carli advocates the drops because it returns the arms to OE angles and allows correct caster adjustment. I have a full Thuren kit and have correct caster adjustment and better than stock ride.

Personally I think spacers and shock extensions are a bad idea.

I completely agree with you. I want to go with a spring set up as well but I want a full 3". I'm about tempted to just go bigger like 4.5" or 5". I don't want it
to look juvenile, I just want a little more elevation.

 

[reloaderguy]

4.5" and 5" kits have less suspension travel than stock because they use the same bumpstops and relocation brackets as 6" kits. 3" and 6" kits are ideal for suspension geometry.

 

[thirstybob]

4.5" and 5" kits have less suspension travel than stock because they use the same bumpstops and relocation brackets as 6" kits. 3" and 6" kits are ideal for suspension geometry.

Good info. I'd really like to stay with 3" without spending thousands. I don't want to diminish its load capacity in the interim.

 

[SwollenMonkey16]

Whoa yourself. No booty hurt about it. It would be nice if we could find some consistent information because I've been doing quite a bit of research myself. I'd like to understand why I can put a 3" spacer on my OEM springs with nothing more than shock extension brackets and an alignment but according to Carli, I can't replace my stock springs with a 3"taller spring without an ATB and radius arm drop brackets.
I like to think of us as all friends here. I appreciate other's point of view.

I agree just giving you a hard time. but seems like all the manufacturers have their own theories and most of them are inconsistent with each other. there are so many options out there its insane. ive seen level spacer kits from 1" to 4.5" (that have great reviews) and of course full on suspension kits up to the sky. I do like the carli setup more than the thuren bc of the radius drops (although one claims you need them and the other doesn't) I just don't want to spend $$$$$ for a level. still going to do more research as I probably wont pull the trigger on anything for a couple months.

 

[SwollenMonkey16]

A 3" spacer and shock extension is a bad idea. You will reach coil bind before you contact the bump stops, that means you will bottom out the springs. A 3" kit should include an adjustable track bar, the exception to this is if you have a Power Wagon OEM track bar which is the maximum length you can run. There are a number of different companies that offer 3" kits without radius arm drops, Carli advocates the drops because it returns the arms to OE angles and allows correct caster adjustment. I have a full Thuren kit and have correct caster adjustment and better than stock ride.

Personally I think spacers and shock extensions are a bad idea.

Most spacer kits over 2.5" come with bump stop extensions or new ones

 

[ramessesII]

Very happy with my Thuren 3" and trackbar. You just glide over things and the steering justnfeels more precise and controlled offroad.

 

[SwollenMonkey16]

Very happy with my Thuren 3" and trackbar. You just glide over things and the steering justnfeels more precise and controlled offroad.

Did it really give you 3" of lift or did they settle lower?

 

[thirstybob]

I agree just giving you a hard time. but seems like all the manufacturers have their own theories and most of them are inconsistent with each other. there are so many options out there its insane. ive seen level spacer kits from 1" to 4.5" (that have great reviews) and of course full on suspension kits up to the sky. I do like the carli setup more than the thuren bc of the radius drops (although one claims you need them and the other doesn't) I just don't want to spend $$$$$ for a level. still going to do more research as I probably wont pull the trigger on anything for a couple months.

Yeah, it's hard to know what to believe with so much contradiction. I just want to do it right without spending an arm & leg. I know spacers isn't the right for me. I do understand that Thuren is a 2.75" spring and Carli is a 3" so I don't know if the Thuren is really 1/4 " lower or not. I'm not quite ready to buy yet either but I'd like to know what you end up with.

 

[thirstybob]

Did it really give you 3" of lift or did they settle lower?

I'm curious as well.

 

[hammer40]

Sorry, took me awhile to get some pics online. Excuse the dirty truck, hard to keep clean this time of year.

Looks great. What are the specs on your wheels?

 

[Andrew09HEMI]

There's really not much to be concerned with spacers on solid axle vehicles that are 2" or less. Anything larger you should get a full spring replacement. The most important pieces when leveling are track bar and shock length. Most of us will not use the full potential of the spring compressed or extended lengths to experience bind with a spacer, again most of us. However, spacers do add pre load on the springs. For those that don't know what preload it, it's the compression of a spring at ride height. So essentially what you're doing is keeping the spring under constant load it wasn't designed for which CAN cause premature wear. That said, there's no reason one couldn't do what I'm doing which is using a HBS leveling spacer, 2" and getting Fox shocks designed for 2-3" lifts front and 1" rear. This will give you a decent level, correct shock length with the ability to swap in new springs down the road which I plan to do.

Just to note, companies will often have different views on levels/lifts and their requirements based on height due to their springs lifting at different amounts and also keep in mind they're businesses designed to make money. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD. What I mean by that is sure you can lift 3" without drop brackets and probably have no issues. But at that height, you SHOULD have radius arm drop brackets to restore factory settings. The bigger the angle on the radius arm the less your springs and shocks absorb a bump. All that energy is sent thru the radius arm into the frame and causes a jarring ride. You want radius arms and control arms in general for solid axles to be as flat as possible at ride height to ensure the most compliant ride.

Track bars will also keep your axle centered and prevent wandering and death wobble. As you lift the front axle, the factory track bar will pull the axle to the drivers side slightly. Higher you go the more it shifts. This effects your scrub radius which is the angle between front and rear axle. You want the scrub radius to be damn near perfect for obvious reasons. But you can see that lifting/leveling has a **** ton more things involved then just height. All this should be considered when you're deciding on what way you want to go.

Hope this helps some people understand the recommendations of others and why certain things are more important than others.

 

[Sandbox]

Looks nice! The wheels look like they don't stick out too much. How far do they stick out past the flares?

 

[thirstybob]

There's really not much to be concerned with spacers on solid axle vehicles that are 2" or less. Anything larger you should get a full spring replacement. The most important pieces when leveling are track bar and shock length. Most of us will not use the full potential of the spring compressed or extended lengths to experience bind with a spacer, again most of us. However, spacers do add pre load on the springs. For those that don't know what preload it, it's the compression of a spring at ride height. So essentially what you're doing is keeping the spring under constant load it wasn't designed for which CAN cause premature wear. That said, there's no reason one couldn't do what I'm doing which is using a HBS leveling spacer, 2" and getting Fox shocks designed for 2-3" lifts front and 1" rear. This will give you a decent level, correct shock length with the ability to swap in new springs down the road which I plan to do.

Just to note, companies will often have different views on levels/lifts and their requirements based on height due to their springs lifting at different amounts and also keep in mind they're businesses designed to make money. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD. What I mean by that is sure you can lift 3" without drop brackets and probably have no issues. But at that height, you SHOULD have radius arm drop brackets to restore factory settings. The bigger the angle on the radius arm the less your springs and shocks absorb a bump. All that energy is sent thru the radius arm into the frame and causes a jarring ride. You want radius arms and control arms in general for solid axles to be as flat as possible at ride height to ensure the most compliant ride.

Track bars will also keep your axle centered and prevent wandering and death wobble. As you lift the front axle, the factory track bar will pull the axle to the drivers side slightly. Higher you go the more it shifts. This effects your scrub radius which is the angle between front and rear axle. You want the scrub radius to be damn near perfect for obvious reasons. But you can see that lifting/leveling has a **** ton more things involved then just height. All this should be considered when you're deciding on what way you want to go.

Hope this helps some people understand the recommendations of others and why certain things are more important than others.

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I've also learned that without the radius arm drops, the 3" springs will bow. As bad as I hate to spend that amount of Benjamin's, I've come to the concluion, the Carli system is the way to go for me.
Once again, Andrew, thank you for the understandable explanation.