Synthetic Oil

[AOFA]

As the new Ram 1500 diesel runs synthetic from the factory, does anyone have any experience with using higher grade synthetics in these engines yet? Any recommendations?

 

[Burla]

As the new Ram 1500 diesel runs synthetic from the factory, does anyone have any experience with using higher grade synthetics in these engines yet? Any recommendations?

If I had a Cummins the first mod I would get is a bypass filter, I would bet they will be available on the eco diesel at some point if not already. I encourage you to research it. Diesels use a cylinder without spark, the glow plugs just heat the cylinder and only at start up. Because of this, the "explosion" is super efficient, the oil does not degrade and have the same acid attack as in a gas engine. I don't know for sure, but I imagine this is fact with the eco diesel as well. I'd research that if I owned one. It is not uncommon for diesels to go through all of the oil analysis and still be good at 100k miles, yes I'm not joking. Research online, my brother had a bypass in every Cummins, but I didn't get around to it in my last only because I was forced to sell it so fast. I don't know how it is going to turn out with the eco diesel, and I believe nobody else does either because they are too new at this point. What you should really do is use a good filter and send in for an oil analysis at the 10k mark. Blackstone labs will tell you how your engine is doing and how long the oil will last. It is pretty cheap insurance for a 50k truck.

As for oil choice, you have specific requirements. "The manufacturer recommends engine oils that meet the requirements of Chrysler Material Standard MS-11106, and that are approved to Fiat 9.55535-S1 or Fiat 9.55535-S3 and ACEA C3." This would be the redline choice if you wanted to try it, but I'm not sure it meets all your requirements on paper. These newer diesels use a lighter weight oil then traditional, I highly recommend getting the best oil you can to help protect your engine from the high compression, that redline will give you great film strength, but I would email redline and ask if you can run it. One oil that for sure meets all your specs is Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30, and a second choice is I believe the new Penzoil Ultra. You would have to verify that, it would be worth your while as I believe the new Ultra is one hell of an oil. To be safe, you can run that Mobil 1 esp until more research comes in and other oil companies promote that they meet all those requirements.

 

[AOFA]

Thanks! good information!

 

[rocket]

Speaking strictly 'bout how diesels run, they are primarily a low rpm motor.....running at low rpms with a boatload of torque allows for a motor running on the same oil for literally thousands of miles longer than a gas engine. As for the synthetic oil running on the latest RAMs I would be hard pressed to find a superior synthetic when in actuality the motor would not need the superior oil in the first place.

 

[RamHemi5.7]

well my lab results came in from black stone...here they are. Burla, I'd like to know what you think...

 

[Burla]

Well thanks for doing all that, I'm sure you can see the benefit. That oil is at the end of it's life at 10k, your additives are great but your tbn is as low as I would want before I changed it. This wear is the wear pattern I have seen in every hemi no matter what the oil, and I have been a little stumped on it. I thought the film strength of redline would lower it, I was clearly wrong on that. I believe it is the 5w20 we are using, and I believe if you ran 5w30 of the same oil the wear numbers would be less, but of course we have to deal with the mds requirement. The good and bad news is you know your change interval and it is lower then I would expect at 10k. I am convinced these 25k oil change interval oils wont do that in these 4 gen Hemi's.

I have read over 10 UOA's and they all show similar wear. I have researched Redline a lot, that is what brought me to it, but I think we have a harsh condition that no oil is going to perform like it does in other none hemi engine. I know many people will shrug that statement, but I can only comment on what I've been seeing. One thing you might consider is trying Amsoil for a run and see if it comes up similar. Since you already have changed it, it is worth it to do another uoa and change it at 10k again. Bottom line is we need to address these wear numbers together and find solutions, or we are going to all be replacing engines sooner then we should. I don't think having any oil for a shorter OCI will change these wear numbers, the excessive wear is not a product of the oil, it is definitely the engine. So if you ran a conventional oil for 3 months you would have less wear numbers, but if you added it up all the changes to get to 10k miles and your one oil change 10k miles, the wear numbers would be similar. So you have a solid 10k mile oil, but you me and the rest of the people reading should try and see if there isn't something we can do to cut those numbers in half. It may be break in like blackstone said, but I have a feeling we just has a lot of soft metal and our oil is too thin. We need someone to try 5w30 for a similar run to prove me wrong. I will gladly do it but as ya'll know I'm testing this current second redline run as well, so it will be a while.

Curious how long as in months it was in your engine? How many miles on the truck? Was your truck ticking bad prior or just average? You run a catch can?

 

[Talon_66]

Excuse my ignorance in regards to oil.
But could one just make a home brew do a 50/50 split of 5w20 and 5w30. And see if that offers better protection?

 

[Burla]

Yes, if you use the same oil you will have similar things just a heavier weight then the low number. The 5w30 will likely have more Viscosity Improvers depending on your brand, but they will mix no problem and I even thought about doing this myself.

As for better protection it is tricky and again I am stumped. So 5w30 have VII's and that can lead to more shear, and the 5w20 is just too thin and that leads to wear. So I would say use a 5w30 oil without VII's, however we now see with this redline that this isn't helping wear numbers either. Burla is stumped right now, so every man for himself to find out if we can get these wear numbers down. The theories aren't working out. My last best guess is Redline 5w30 will bring down the wear numbers, if that doesn't work I punt. Continuing new things and sending in uoa's have to be done or just live with it.

I almost feel like dumping this interval early and running Redline 5w30. Even though I still have an oil changes worth of redline 5w20, my next change will be 30 and damn the consequences. I am more curious then smart.

Like many mechanics are saying out loud, the 5w20 **** is just too thin. Trying to make gains in film strength by trying top shelf oils isn't substantially improving the wear enough for my liking.

 

[Talon_66]

Yes, if you use the same oil you will have similar things just a heavier weight then the low number. The 5w30 will likely have more Viscosity Improvers depending on your brand, but they will mix no problem and I even thought about doing this myself.

I know when I had my Evo X a lot of the GSR owners (Inc. Myself) did a cocktail to help with transmission grinding.

Hence my question.

Anyone who's turned their MDS off should test out the 5w30

 

[smiley]

Burla I am telling you the 0W-20 is better oil. I will have to do a sample to prove it.

 

[Burla]

Smiles at this point I'll take all comers. You still on valvoline?

So I looked it up, 0w20 is 5 points thinner at start up temp, and almost the same at operating temps. So at start up your oil will flow faster to your parts but sacrifice nothing at operating temps. So I concur 100% with Smiley, 0w20 is better oil depending on the numbers of that brand.

The real benefit to Smiley's suggestion is those choosing to run 30 weight, the 0w30 will have 2 points better viscosity at startup. So I have been saying 5w30 when I should be saying 0w30. That is what we should be testing, 25% better viscosity against wear if we can run it w.o problems.

 

[Lhemi]

How much faster is that time? Is it faster than the break down of the film left behind? I would think that both would be that fast.

 

[hemihustlin]

Excuse my ignorance in regards to oil.
But could one just make a home brew do a 50/50 split of 5w20 and 5w30. And see if that offers better protection?

Many do, but for what we are doing here the difference between a 5w20 and 25 is negligible. Even then Redline 5w20 pushes the boundries of what can be considered 5w20, with an operating temp viscosity closer to that of a 5w30

Also stick to your guns burla! You have the opportunity to make real long term, extended drain redline in a hemi data. If you drop it now and go straight to 5w30 you will never know the true outcome.

 

[Burla]

How much faster is that time? Is it faster than the break down of the film left behind? I would think that both would be that fast.

The film left behind fades fast because it is always hot and again the thin 20 weight oil, thus is why we have dry startups and the reason for Moly in oils. It is just like when you stick olive oil in a pan, soon as it gets hot it thins like crazy. As for how fast, it is very marginal. But since most wear occurs at startup, faster flowing helps that cause although I'm sure it is negligible.

My brand- the second visc is aprx startup visc. Obviously that number fluctuates with how cold your air is. Lower the viscosity of course the faster it flows. So that is at 104F, but now most of us start out trucks colder then that, so those viscosity will even be greater in significance. The visc are basically the same at operating temps per weight, the gains can come from using a thin winter rating for possible causing less startup wear.


0w20 operating temps 9.1 visc 0w20 visc at 40C 48

5w20 operating temps 9 visc 0w20 visc at 40C 53

0w30 operating temps 11.7 visc 0w20 visc at 40C 69

5w30 operating temps 11.9 visc 0w20 visc at 40C 71

PS back to the UOA-
James, I would be cutting open those filters as well. Make sure there isn't metal flakes. Wear in PPM isn't that a big of deal other then it shows your engine is having wear, but flakes in your filter or absent in your filter would tell you a much better story.

 

[smiley]

Yes I am still using using Valvoline 0W-20 on mine and 5W-30 on the wife's Journey. I got an amazing deal on filters for both as I stated in this thread so now I will probably do an Amsoil run again since those platinum filters will outlast my oil. I debating between the signature series I have used in the path or trying redline since I never have. I am to the point where I only want to run 0W oil so I have less choices than most do. Will it even matter? Probably not but I feel good about it so that is half the battle in motor oil.


$miley

 

[DavidRam]

No where on the planet is there a better discussion on motor oil, than this thread right here! Very interesting

 

[smiley]

Just looked at prices Redline is $11.49 a qt I can do Signature Series through local dealer for $7.96 a qt. that is making it tough for me to try Red line.


$miley

 

[Burla]

Go with the Amsoil and a synthetic filter, and do us all a favor and do a UOA at 10k. It will great benefit to you as well.

 

[DavidRam]

I just changed my oil to Redline, and I can say it IS totally worth the price. My engine runs smoother and more quiet than I thought possible. The first few days since the oil change, I kept listening to the engine to make sure there wasn't something wrong with it!
I had a slight hemi-tick too, that is completely gone. And, no, I don't work for Redline or own stock in the company!

 

[Burla]

I agree, smooth running is just one of a list of benefits of running group 5. But, we have also been getting not so impressive wear numbers from guys running it as well. It is possible that these are because the engines are new, or it could be because 20 weight oil in any brand is going to cause higher wear. So this thread is just beginning to pay dividends as far as information. The next two or so years of different oil choices and UOA's will give us all answers on what is going on with our unique engines. So we need guys running many different oils, not just running and testing one.