When is a diesel engine overkill??

[xrsman]

Having owned 3 4th gen Rams all with different engines, here's my input.

You won't have a lot of fun with the 3.6L. If if you like going fast it's not the truck for you. You're also limited with towing capacity. If you don't care about those things than its a cheaper solution that gets okay gas mileage.

The Hemi is fun. It's fast, you can light up the tires, and you can tow a good bit of weight. The mileage isn't great, but not terrible.

The Ecodiesel (my current truck) is phenomenal. The only thing I miss about the Hemi is how quick it is. The problem I see is that some commenting in this thread who haven't ever used one are bashing it. Will it light up the tires at an intersection? Oh yes it will. Will it haul head to head with a Hemi? Absolutely it will. I had 9000 lbs behind me the other day and it felt like 4000 lbs, the truck didn't skip a beat or struggle at all.

Mileage is amazing too. Before I put larger A/T tires on my truck I AVERAGED 9.7L/100 KMS (24 mpg) over 10,000 kms. That was a Fuelly tracked average. There was towing in that, city driving, freeway driving, and work commute. I'm not bashing the other engines, but when someone with a gasser says they can get 24, 25 mpg, that's a best case scenario on a flat road being easy with the throttle. that was my overall average. Best mileage I ever saw was 6.7 L/100 KMS. That's 35 mpg. I just did 50 mph home from work. There are a few stops and big hills. I also had to wait at bridge construction for a few minutes, so we'll as traffic lights. Another day I averaged 6.9 on a longer trip. That's 34 mpg.





My point is, don't discredit an engine until you've put it to work. The Ecodiesel is certainly not a "Toy". It also will have a higher resale than both gas engines, so that will close the cost gap up.

The other thing is people think because in their town diesel is more than gas, that it must be that way all over the world..lol. That is very untrue. I don't know what it's like for you OP, but in the summer diesel is on average 10 cents per litre (40 cents per gallon) cheaper than regular gas. In the winter it's closer, but still cheaper. In Ontario anyway.

If you can afford the Cummins, than get it. It's a great engine. Don't be afraid of the DEF freezing up. Just don't fill it completely up in the winter. Most times freezing will happen at the top of the tank, near the filler neck. Someone complained about plugging in. Well plugging the truck in heats the block up, putting less stress on the starter, and eliminating some warm up time. It also will get hot air blowing faster into the cab. It's a win win in my book.

Lastly, here are Fuelly.Com mileage averages for all 4 engines. Expect to get this mileage from whatever you buy.

3.6L



Hemi



Ecodiesel

Cummins



All of these engines are good, don't get my wrong I'm not blasting any of them. Just don't believe the people that say diesel trucks are money burners and you won't get your money back out of them. History has proven that to be false with resale values.


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[xrsman]

This is an example of what I was talking about. This is a claim I see all the time in some forums, that is not based in fact, but is generally believed due to how often it is repeated.

The fact is thatRam has a heated DEF tank and lines. I Just went through a month long period where the temps were in the low teens and didn't get above freezing during the day. I never plug my truck in (don't even have the cold weather package on this truck). Even if I did, the plug heats the block, not the DEF tank or lines... I have never had ANY issues with frozen DEF, nor has anyone I know. I am not saying that it has never happened, any system can fail. but The only time I ever hear about this phenomenon is from guys that drive gassers and knew somebody that it happened to... it certainly is not a common occurrence, nor is it debilitating if it were to freeze. A 32.5% DEF solution will start to crystallize at 12deg F, and freeze hard at -11 deg F.

This is the way the system works in extreme cold conditions:
"During vehicle operation, SCR systems are designed to provide heating for the DEF tank and supply lines. If DEF freezes when the vehicle is shut down, start up and normal operation of the vehicle will not be inhibited. The SCR heating system is designed to quickly return the DEF to liquid form and the operation of the vehicle will not be impacted. The freezing and unthawing of DEF will not cause degradation of the product."

Even if the DEF tank froze solid, you could start up and drive 70 miles before any derating would occur. And if the system is operating properly, the DEF would be thawed enough to function normally by that time.

With this being said, I do not have any knowledge about FORD's DEF system.


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This ^

I haven't had any freezing issues with my DEF. Even when it was -25°C!

My dad's 2013 F-250 froze once, but that was when we were new to DEF trucks and filled it completely up in the middle of the winter.

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[bubbagumpshrimp]

Having owned 3 4th gen Rams all with different engines, here's my input.

You won't have a lot of fun with the 3.6L. If if you like going fast it's not the truck for you. You're also limited with towing capacity. If you don't care about those things than its a cheaper solution that gets okay gas mileage.

The Hemi is fun. It's fast, you can light up the tires, and you can tow a good bit of weight. The mileage isn't great, but not terrible.

The Ecodiesel (my current truck) is phenomenal. The only thing I miss about the Hemi is how quick it is. The problem I see is that some commenting in this thread who haven't ever used one are bashing it. Will it light up the tires at an intersection? Oh yes it will. Will it haul head to head with a Hemi? Absolutely it will. I had 9000 lbs behind me the other day and it felt like 4000 lbs, the truck didn't skip a beat or struggle at all.

My point is, don't discredit an engine until you've put it to work. The Ecodiesel is certainly not a "Toy". It also will have a higher resale than both gas engines, so that will close the cost gap up.

The other thing is people think because in their town diesel is more than gas, that it must be that way all over the world..lol. That is very untrue. I don't know what it's like for you OP, but in the summer diesel is on average 10 cents per litre (40 cents per gallon) cheaper than regular gas. In the winter it's closer, but still cheaper. In Ontario anyway.

All of these engines are good, don't get my wrong I'm not blasting any of them. Just don't believe the people that say diesel trucks are money burners and you won't get your money back out of them. History has proven that to be false with resale values.


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All fuelly BS aside (fuel economy doesn't tell the whole story), the average person will literally never break-even on the cost of a diesel half-ton (I'm not talking 2500+ trucks).

23 MPG in the Ecodiesel vs. 19 MPG in my Hemi (that's what I average for my commute).

Based on $2.30 gallon unleaded (for Hemi), $2.50 gal diesel (for Ecodiesel), based on 73.91 miles driven per day, five days a week, for 52 weeks. That works out to 19,216.6 miles per year commuting.

For this purpose, I'm not counting mileage for weekends and road trips, because my commuting miles far exceed the average persons miles driven per year (15,000 per year is the average), so in reality...the break-even figure I quote is going to be a shorter duration then it would be if I used 15,000 miles as my baseline.

2016 5.7L Hemi
19 MPG Average
3.89 gallons per day (73.91 miles per day)
3.89 x 5 commuting days = 19.45 gallons per week
19.45 gallons x $2.30/gallon = $44.74 per week
$44.735 x 52 = $2,326.22 per year

Cost of Hemi = $1,500

2016 3.0L Ecodiesel
23 MPG Average
3.21 gallons per day (73.91 miles per day)
3.21 x 5 commuting days = 16.07 gallons per week
16.07 gallons x $2.50/gallon = $40.17
$40.17 x 52 = $2,088.76 per year

Ecodiesel saves $237.46/year vs. the Hemi.

Cost of Ecodiesel = $4,500

The Ecodiesel costs $3,000 more than the Hemi. $3,000 / $237.46 = 12.66 years break-even, for the Ecodiesel vs. the Hemi. The break-even period is going to be even longer vs. the 3.6L.

Adjust the fuel cost for the diesel down to $2.30/gallon if you would like (for areas where diesel is the same cost as regular unleaded). That makes the Ecodiesel $412.36 cheaper per year and makes the break-even time 7.28 years.

Where the average person is doing good to hang onto a vehicle long enough to pay it off....the average person will literally never hit the break-even point.

I'm not saying that there aren't pluses for the Ecodiesel (its tow rating is a heck of a lot more than the 3.6L), but looking at it purely from the financial standpoint...it doesn't make sense. That's not even getting into service costs. ex. DEF fluid for Ecodiesel, Hemi oil filter $10, Ecodiesel oil filter $30+. Extrapolate that out over 200,000 miles.

None of that is counting the re-flashed ECU that you're going to get (decreasing your fuel economy) after the EPA and CARB get done going after Chrysler and Bosch over the Ecodiesel ECU tuning fiasco.

 

[JRG18]

All fuelly BS aside (fuel economy doesn't tell the whole story), the average person will literally never break-even on the cost of a diesel half-ton (I'm not talking 2500+ trucks).

23 MPG in the Ecodiesel vs. 19 MPG in my Hemi (that's what I average for my commute).

Based on $2.30 gallon unleaded (for Hemi), $2.50 gal diesel (for Ecodiesel), based on 73.91 miles driven per day, five days a week, for 52 weeks. That works out to 19,216.6 miles per year commuting.

For this purpose, I'm not counting mileage for weekends and road trips, because my commuting miles far exceed the average persons miles driven per year (15,000 per year is the average), so in reality...the break-even figure I quote is going to be a shorter duration then it would be if I used 15,000 miles as my baseline.

2016 5.7L Hemi
19 MPG Average
3.89 gallons per day (73.91 miles per day)
3.89 x 5 commuting days = 19.45 gallons per week
19.45 gallons x $2.30/gallon = $44.74 per week
$44.735 x 52 = $2,326.22 per year

Cost of Hemi = $1,500

2016 3.0L Ecodiesel
23 MPG Average
3.21 gallons per day (73.91 miles per day)
3.21 x 5 commuting days = 16.07 gallons per week
16.07 gallons x $2.50/gallon = $40.17
$40.17 x 52 = $2,088.76 per year

Ecodiesel saves $237.46/year vs. the Hemi.

Cost of Ecodiesel = $4,500

The Ecodiesel costs $3,000 more than the Hemi. $3,000 / $237.46 = 12.66 years break-even, for the Ecodiesel vs. the Hemi. The break-even period is going to be even longer vs. the 3.6L.

Adjust the fuel cost for the diesel down to $2.30/gallon if you would like (for areas where diesel is the same cost as regular unleaded). That makes the Ecodiesel $412.36 cheaper per year and makes the break-even time 7.28 years.

Where the average person is doing good to hang onto a vehicle long enough to pay it off....the average person will literally never hit the break-even point.

I'm not saying that there aren't pluses for the Ecodiesel (its tow rating is a heck of a lot more than the 3.6L), but looking at it purely from the financial standpoint...it doesn't make sense. That's not even getting into service costs. ex. DEF fluid for Ecodiesel, Hemi oil filter $10, Ecodiesel oil filter $30+. Extrapolate that out over 200,000 miles.

None of that is counting the re-flashed ECU that you're going to get (decreasing your fuel economy) after the EPA and CARB get done going after Chrysler and Bosch over the Ecodiesel ECU tuning fiasco.

In reality the average person doesn't have the luxury of being able to walk into a dealer and order a new truck from the factory. Who on earth willingly pays the sticker price for anything when it comes to vehicles? Truth is, there are many folks who will travel a great distance to pay a lot less for a vehicle. Trucks out here on the east coast (mainly PA, NJ and VA from what I've seen) are a lot less than out west. Right now I could get into an ecodiesel for the same price as a hemi, not a brand new one of course.

Cherry picked arguments are great when trying to rationalize your situation, but let's get real here.

 

[xrsman]

All fuelly BS aside (fuel economy doesn't tell the whole story), the average person will literally never break-even on the cost of a diesel half-ton (I'm not talking 2500+ trucks).

23 MPG in the Ecodiesel vs. 19 MPG in my Hemi (that's what I average for my commute).

Based on $2.30 gallon unleaded (for Hemi), $2.50 gal diesel (for Ecodiesel), based on 73.91 miles driven per day, five days a week, for 52 weeks. That works out to 19,216.6 miles per year commuting.

For this purpose, I'm not counting mileage for weekends and road trips, because my commuting miles far exceed the average persons miles driven per year (15,000 per year is the average), so in reality...the break-even figure I quote is going to be a shorter duration then it would be if I used 15,000 miles as my baseline.

2016 5.7L Hemi
19 MPG Average
3.89 gallons per day (73.91 miles per day)
3.89 x 5 commuting days = 19.45 gallons per week
19.45 gallons x $2.30/gallon = $44.74 per week
$44.735 x 52 = $2,326.22 per year

Cost of Hemi = $1,500

2016 3.0L Ecodiesel
23 MPG Average
3.21 gallons per day (73.91 miles per day)
3.21 x 5 commuting days = 16.07 gallons per week
16.07 gallons x $2.50/gallon = $40.17
$40.17 x 52 = $2,088.76 per year

Ecodiesel saves $237.46/year vs. the Hemi.

Cost of Ecodiesel = $4,500

The Ecodiesel costs $3,000 more than the Hemi. $3,000 / $237.46 = 12.66 years break-even, for the Ecodiesel vs. the Hemi. The break-even period is going to be even longer vs. the 3.6L.

Adjust the fuel cost for the diesel down to $2.30/gallon if you would like (for areas where diesel is the same cost as regular unleaded). That makes the Ecodiesel $412.36 cheaper per year and makes the break-even time 7.28 years.

Where the average person is doing good to hang onto a vehicle long enough to pay it off....the average person will literally never hit the break-even point.

I'm not saying that there aren't pluses for the Ecodiesel (its tow rating is a heck of a lot more than the 3.6L), but looking at it purely from the financial standpoint...it doesn't make sense. That's not even getting into service costs. ex. DEF fluid for Ecodiesel, Hemi oil filter $10, Ecodiesel oil filter $30+. Extrapolate that out over 200,000 miles.

None of that is counting the re-flashed ECU that you're going to get (decreasing your fuel economy) after the EPA and CARB get done going after Chrysler and Bosch over the Ecodiesel ECU tuning fiasco.

In your area maybe that's the case..however here are the costs for me.

When I bought my truck, the Ecodiesel was only like a $3300 add on because I purchased a Limited.

We'll use Fuelly again, because it's not BS. These are real world numbers tracked by hundreds of vehicles over millions of kms. Unless you've driven an ecodiesel on your commute you can't assume what the mileage will be. Like I said, when I did 80 kmh (50mph) home from work I averaged 35 mpg. So Fuelly is a safe, accurate bet for an overall average.

I'll use kms and L/100 KMS for these numbers because I don't know the American versions well enough.

Hemi L/100 kms



Ecodiesel L/100 kms


Over 30,000 kms I took the Hemi averages vs the Ecodiesel average and put it into the calculator. I used the same fuel price, even though diesel is cheaper here.

Hemi cost per year $5048

Ecodiesel cost per year $ 3465



Difference in money spent over 30,000 kms - $1583

So with that, at 60,000 kms I've almost broken even.

Oil filter is $25 CAD for the ecodiesel, cheaper in the US by 35%. A whole oil change costs me around $120. I was about $100 with my Hemi. However, with the diesel I can change it every 15,000 kms instead of every 10,000 kms with the hemi.

DEF at the pump is cheap. $20 every 15,000 kms.

We haven't even accounted for resale value. The Ecodiesel will always get more when you resell it than a Hemi with all the same options.

As for the ECM flash..I won't be getting that. Just like VW, they cannot force you to have it. All they can do is issue a recall and hope you come in. I will not be going in, so my mileage and performance will be staying the same.



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[Sportznut]

If you can afford it, grab a Cummins. These eco diesels serve no real purpose imo. The Hemi has more power, and overall has a higher towing and payload capacity. If you want fuel economy, sure the little eco diesel will suit you well, but at that rate , you should just look at a mid size truck. Hemi is where it is. Unless of course, you can afford that Cummins. Both engines will last you a life time, the eco diesel imo is just to "toy like" for me.

I do not agree with this statement about the ecodiesel's.

I do not own an ecodiesel. I have a Hemi but I have known several people that do own the ecodiesels and they love them. They have a purpose and they do it well.

If you want a light-duty truck with plenty of room, bed space, great mpg, and basic towing, consider one of these. There's no reason to spend more money if it is not in your budget if this truck suits your purpose.

The ecodiesel would actually serve my purposes better than my Hemi.

Good luck in your search.

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[magic280z]

My Dad has a '99 Cummins 2500 that he loves, but he also regrets. The fuel economy doesn't match the increase in fuel cost. At the time this was compared to a 95 suburban 5.7 my Mom drove. He also got the 2 wheel drive version he has never needed a 4x4 truck the last one he owned was an 81 Nissan hard body, but all the weight on the front end of the Cummins gets it stuck easier than a 1500 2 wheel drive. Towing fuel economy is great only looses 1-2 mpg with a small camper.

He got his used 10 years ago has 280,000 miles and is still going strong. While the motor may last forever there is a lot of truck attached to it that may not. The interior is pretty much the same as the 1500 so he's had to deal with all the same stuff as a normal 15 year old truck. Heater cores, dash lights, vents not flapping, worn seats, etc. Also the increased noise makes drive thrus a pain. He has to turn the truck off to order.

Sam

 

[magic280z]

Forgot to throw in my actual 2 cents.

I ended up with the HEMi would have loved an ecodiesel being and ex Jetta diesel owner pre TDI days, but availability and cost kept it from happening. The pentastar is great for commuting I strongly considered it since I commute about 19,000 miles a year. The towing capacity being worse than the Frontier I was replacing kinda did it in for me.

My only regret is I didn't get ramboxes. I hate that they only have about 10% of their trucks equipped with them on the lot the only one in my price range was a poorly equipped v6 model (didn't know in 2016 you could buy a truck without Bluetooth, but that was not the only reason). Ended up with a better equipped Hemi for the same price.

Staring at the fuel economy screen on the evic I managed 21.4 mpg on back roads around 60mph. My typical commute is 30 miles 15 interstate 77mph and 50% 4 lane highway around 50mph with lights. Only been seeing around 17mpg. Sometimes more sometimes less. My Trip B 4000 miles is showing 18.5 mpg since purchase.

 

[VicViper]

I got a 1Ton 6.4 Hemi...I love it...that's about all I got to say though.

 

[brianw0048]

I love my eco. I do outside sales and average 1,100 miles/week. I went from 14-16mpg in my F150 to 22-25mpg in my eco. I still have a full size bed and plenty of cab room.

My intention is to keep this one 5 years...probably be somewhere between 250-300k in 5 years.

 

[HowBoutDemPhillies]

Get the first one that is so much fun to drive you tell yourself how much fun this is.

 

[cgeorgemo]

Well the real question is do you need a 3/4 ton the fuel economy between the 1500 diesel and 2500 are very different but both are good for there size and utility needs do yoy haul a 7000lb trailer all over get a 6.7 do you just buzz to and from work and once in a while haul sum 2x4 buy the 1500 diesel then it comes down to price too get a loaded lifted 2500 you will spend 80g buy the 1500 loaded its like 60g. So its what your using it for and what budget you have

Here, I got these for you.
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Feel free to use any extra ones you don't need for this post in a future post of your choosing.


I wonder what this button does?

 

[Bob57]

.... From what I've been hearing the manufacturers are going to do away with the def systems currently required on diesel engines. .....

????? Are next year's def systems being eliminated?

 

[Bob57]

Source?

That is what I'm asking "bryan28" who said..."From what I've been hearing the manufacturers are going to do away with the def systems currently required on diesel engines..."

I’m about to order a 2017 RAM 2500 Laramie CC 4x4 CTD tomorrow. Would like to know if there are major changes in the works…

 

[Shady]

Maybe an extra 20% tacked on to the cost (thanks for your support in building the wall).


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[bubbagumpshrimp]

In reality the average person doesn't have the luxury of being able to walk into a dealer and order a new truck from the factory. Who on earth willingly pays the sticker price for anything when it comes to vehicles? Truth is, there are many folks who will travel a great distance to pay a lot less for a vehicle. Trucks out here on the east coast (mainly PA, NJ and VA from what I've seen) are a lot less than out west. Right now I could get into an ecodiesel for the same price as a hemi, not a brand new one of course.

Cherry picked arguments are great when trying to rationalize your situation, but let's get real here.

Just because a few people on the internet flew hundreds or thousands of miles to get a vehicle doesn't mean that's the norm. The vast majority of people are doing what I did...check within maybe 200 miles for the best deal and go get it.

That being said...when I was younger, on two occasions I did what you suggested (flew ~1,000 miles to "home" to get a deal). Just about everyone that I've talked to over the years and mentioned that thought I was nuts for going to that extreme for a deal.

We'll use Fuelly again, because it's not BS. These are real world numbers tracked by hundreds of vehicles over millions of kms. Unless you've driven an ecodiesel on your commute you can't assume what the mileage will be. Like I said, when I did 80 kmh (50mph) home from work I averaged 35 mpg. So Fuelly is a safe, accurate bet for an overall average.

My issue with Fuelly is the whole "garbage in garbage out" thing. ex. Use of MFD fuel economy numbers.

I've lost track of how many times over the years I've seen people reference the fuel economy numbers shown on their display vs. hand calculated numbers.

The display in my truck is 5% or so high. The display in my last car was 20%+ high when they got done screwing with the ECU.

That and I doubt most people are good about accurately showing their city vs. highway mileage. I know I wasn't after the first dozen or so tanks I logged with my last vehicle.

Don't mind me though. Haters gonna hate.

 

[VernDiesel]

Give them all an open minded fair chance & test drive them. Can't decide between two test drive two more with the drive trains you liked the most. Then set out to make the best deal on the one you "want" the most. Whatever the drivetrain is search for or order one with that drivetrain & color etc that you "want". Buying what you have determined you want the most ends up better than settling or looking at only price & mileage or dry criteria.

Naturally If you have specific needs such as towing X you have to factor that.

Personally I like the cost & practically of the 3.6 and I really like the sound & quickness of the Hemi. I also loved the torque of the Cummins but knew I had no need for it and didn't want to kill my budget. So after driving all 3 I was going to be happy with the Hemi and in fact I drove other makes.

But I read about the EcoD knew that on paper it should be the best fit for my goals of mileage & towing but I like fast so.. I waited & drove the very first in the area and knew it was the right choice for me and ordered it that day.

Later I ended up going into business delivering Airstream TTs with that truck. Today with over 260,000 miles I still enjoy driving it. Had I bought a truck to tow 5ers etc yes I would have bought the Cummins fortunately AS are within its capabilities.

Oddly enough my son went to work as a pilot truck driver for a heavy haul oversize loads company who has a fleet of the EDs. My truck only has a little over 5,000 hours run time, his ED has almost 7,000 hours but only just turned 200,000 miles. That said I had two gassers never rebuilt that I sold with 250k on the clock. So gassers can also hold up if maintained.

 

[ATC235]

Well I own a 2015 eco diesel now. And put 50k miles in 2 years. Stock setup I was getting 28mpgs on the high way and 24mpg around town. Leveling kit and wider MT tires it dropped to 24mpg on the highway and 18 around town. I'm trading it in for a used 2015 ram 2500 6.7 with 35k on it. I took the truck on a 5 hr test drive lol. It was showing 24mpgs on the highway. I look at it this way. Im buying a truck that can tow 17000 pds. It's built like a tank lol. So this thing is going to last a long time. Oh plus it sounds so much better then the 3.0. The 1500 is just not built the same. You can get a good deal on a used 2500 with low miles.
Hope that helps.

 

[zogg]

I had a 2006 2500 with the Cummings 5.9. It was a real beast and got over 21 mpg hi way all the time. The new 6.7 doesn't do as well plus you have to deal with the def fluid. Yep, another epa expense.

We were pulling a 10,000 pound 5th wheel then, but quit towing due to an injury. I felt the diesel was way more than I needed for a daily driver, so I traded for a new 1500 5.7 hemi. It a great combo and did more than I though it would. Still over 20 mpg hi way and gas is cheaper that diesel fuel....all good.

Bought a new 5th wheel last summer but it's only 8,000 pounds. It's too much for the 1500, so we bought a 2016 2500. I thought the 5.7 was a tad small, but I know plenty of folks that tow with them. So, I had to decide between another diesel and the 6.4 gasser.

I went with the 6.4 gas engine because the 5th wheel is not huge, the up charge of the diesel would pay for a heck of a lot of gas, the diesel maintenance is too much of a bother to me, as I do all my own work....gas is practically maintenance free except oil changes.

Also, the wife hates the smell of diesel fumes in the garage and the campground. Small issue, maybe.

Anyway, the 2500 rides a lot rougher than I prefer, but not as bad as a Silverado or f250, since it has the coil suspension. If I didn't tow an rv I would have stayed with the 1500. Actually, I don't see the point of the diesel in the half ton truck.....you can tow a lot more but you are still limited to the payload upper limit....if you have to tow heavy the 1500 with coil springs is not the answer in my opinion.

I'd rather have more truck than I need, than need more truck that I have.....