Battery or...?

[bigramma0786]

Not an uncommon thread topic but a nuanced enough one that I might as well ask in a new post:

Came out to a non-starting truck the other day. I can't remember the voltage I read but ended up pulling the battery and putting it on a charger. Charger will put the battery up to 12.5+ with no issues and truck starts without issue.

Battery is only a couple years old so I went to Auto-zone and had them check the battery and they said "battery is still good" but it was "too low charge (<70%) to run the full test."

Issue is, battery will die within maybe a day and a half of non-use and unable to start the truck. Interior electronics will work, it tries, starter sol will click, but nada.

No battery lights or anything on dash. OBD reading says system is 14.1V or more when running, though I haven't checked at the terminals myself, but hence I don't think it's an alternator issue.

My first thought is there is some parasitic drain that I have to just bite the bullet and trace down, but another post suggests autozone's battery health test is meh. So I'm kinda of at the point of either dive into tracing a potentially phantom drain, or spend $ on a new battery despite this one's relative newness.


At this point I have pulled/charged/reinstalled the battery a handful of times. Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Wild one]

Not an uncommon thread topic but a nuanced enough one that I might as well ask in a new post:

Came out to a non-starting truck the other day. I can't remember the voltage I read but ended up pulling the battery and putting it on a charger. Charger will put the battery up to 12.5+ with no issues and truck starts without issue.

Battery is only a couple years old so I went to Auto-zone and had them check the battery and they said "battery is still good" but it was "too low charge (<70%) to run the full test."

Issue is, battery will die within maybe a day and a half of non-use and unable to start the truck. Interior electronics will work, it tries, starter sol will click, but nada.

No battery lights or anything on dash. OBD reading says system is 14.1V or more when running, though I haven't checked at the terminals myself, but hence I don't think it's an alternator issue.

My first thought is there is some parasitic drain that I have to just bite the bullet and trace down, but another post suggests autozone's battery health test is meh. So I'm kinda of at the point of either dive into tracing a potentially phantom drain, or spend $ on a new battery despite this one's relative newness.


At this point I have pulled/charged/reinstalled the battery a handful of times. Any thoughts are appreciated.

It's been posted probably at least a 100 times on here,buy yourself one of these battery testers and test the battery yourself,they're only 20 bucks.Might save you a bunch of work in the long run.

100 Amp, 6/12V Battery Load Tester

Amazing deals on this 100 Amp 6/12V Battery Load Tester at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.

www.harborfreight.com

 

[Dean2]

What Wild said, plus, if the battery was down to 70% already, the battery is on its way out. It takes a hell of a drain to flatten a battery overnight. Search parasitc drain and you will find a detailed post I did on how to look for one.

A battery costs about the price of a tank of gas so no big deal if you have to replace it.

 

[Curmudgeon]

^What they said, and I want to add that Florida (hot!) -
- heat is one of the primary reasons for batteries to
fail early.

And I learned that right here!

I just replaced my battery a couple months ago, it just
wouldn't crank. My handheld voltmeter showed 14.1v while
idling, but the battery all by itself was only 12.4v.

I was able to charge it and drive to the battery store, in
and out in about 15 minutes, they guy did the swap while
I waited. It's been fine ever since.

If you're going to buy the battery tester shown above, you
might as well grab a $10 multi-meter too (unless you already
have one).

 

[Jeepwalker]

Maybe charge the battery up and let it sit outside the vehicle a day or two(not on the floor though) ...then take it and get it tested (or test yoruself if you get a tester).

It probably wouldn't hurt to test for a parasitic battery drain before springing for a new battery. Bear in mind you gotta wait and let the computer go into sleep mode. Watch some videos or read the info as articulated in the above post. Best of luck.

 

[bigramma0786]

Thanks all. @Dean2 not sure if you have really expensive gas or I have really expensive batteries but either way you're not wrong, not a huge sink I'm just surprised as this would be my shortest-lived battery yet.

I'll pick up the tester tomorrow and run some checks.

 

[RamDiver]

Thanks all. @Dean2 not sure if you have really expensive gas or I have really expensive batteries but either way you're not wrong, not a huge sink I'm just surprised as this would be my shortest-lived battery yet.

I'll pick up the tester tomorrow and run some checks.

A toaster-style battery load tester as linked above is the most reliable device for identifying a failing battery especially one with a flakey cell.

They're also far less expensive.

I've owned a couple of them for decades and they both work as good as day 1.

The digital testers are very prone to false positives and it seems that most in the parts stores accept the poor odds of a false positive test result for the convenience factor.

Their fearless leaders have instilled the BS belief that they're reliable, likely because they don't understand how they work.

Digital testers don't provide an adequate load to identify flakey cells and then too often produce a false positive test result.


And yes, we have expensive gas in Canada because our dictator has taxed the living hell out it.

During this past summer it peaked at just over $6 a US gallon for 87 and he's forced all the distributors to have Ethanol in all grades sold in Canada.

.

 

[Dean2]

Below is the post I was referring to on finding parasitic drain.

High heat kills batteries faster than anything else, doesn't matter who makes the battery. AGMs in high heat die almost as fast as Lead Acid. If you have drained a battery dead, using a smart charger with a conditioner function will bring it back to near new, and it will be reliable.



Post I wrote earlier. Hope it helps.

In addition to high temperatures killing batteries prematurely, leaving cars sit and letting the battery drain down then recharge, dramatically shortens battery life, no matter what kind it is.

In order to understand how quick this happens on our heavily computerised cars I thought, I would run the test on my 2015 LS460 SWB AWD. I started with a quality Multimeter that has both DC and AC current(AMP) measuring capacity. You put the black lead into the common port, and the Red lead into the 10A port, may also be labelled just AC/DC A on some meter. Having Alligator clips on the end of the probes will make doing this a whole bunch easier.

I shut off the car, put the key FOB in the house in an RFID box, left the doors unlocked, and lifted the hood. My car does not have a hood open warning light so no hood open sensor that needs to be defeated. I disconnected the negative terminal on the battery, clipped the Red Lead to the battery terminal and the black lead to the Negative cable. I then opened and closed the drivers door. Reading popped to 4.8 amps with the interior lights coming on. Closed the drivers door, reading dropped to 2.7 amps and after about 30 seconds started to steadily drop. Within 90 seconds it was down to .7 amp and still dropping. Within three minutes it was reading between .03 and .04 amps, so 30 to 40 Miliamps.

I had read that the FOB being too close would cause the vehicle to wake up so I went in the house and got the FOB. Even right beside the car, not change in .03-.04 AMPs being drawn. Used the FOB to open the trunk, reading popped up to 6 Amps. Closed the Truck with the auto close system using the button on the trunk lid, reading stayed at 5-6 AMPs. As soon as the trunk latched the AMPs dropped to 2.5 and then kept dropping following the same pattern above. I tried a number of different combinations and permutations, including putting the push button start in the run position without stepping on the brake so the car didn't start. Remember, your multimeter is limited to 10 AMPs, if you start the car, or turn on high draw things like Headlights, you will likely pop the fuse that protects the multimeter.

No matter what combinations I tried, the at rest reading dropped back to the 30 to 40 miliamp reading. The only thing I didn't do that I wish I had done, was lock the doors and see if the at rest reading increased with the security system active. Since I park in a secure garage and never lock the car, I didn't think about that till I had it all buttoned up again.

Since the car sits for long periods of time I have attached a NOCO harness to to the battery terminals to make hooking up the trickle charger much easier. This way I can just plug the trickle charger in without having to remove the clips and lift the battery cover each time to attach alligator clips. I have these quick connects on all my vehicles. Even at only 40 Miliamp, a battery will drop below starting voltage in about a month, if it is stored cold it will go flat faster than that. Remember, lead acid batteries do not like to be discharge down to 11 Volts and recharged. They are much happier and last far longer if kept above 12.3 volts and that means a trickle charger is a good idea if you don't drive your car for at least 30 minutes every 3 or 4 days.

Hope this information helps those of you suffering from batteries going flat or dying prematurely.















Multimeters have a lot of different layouts, this is just for illustration.











As a followup, Charged the battery to full, after an hour off the charger, read 12.73. July 2023 OEM Lexus battery. After sitting in the garage un-driven for 8 days, battery now reads 12.45. So the constant drain, even though very small, definitely draws down the battery over time. Battery went from 100% to 80% in 8 days. Still lots of juice to start the car. Left parked with no trickle charger, and assuming an even rate of drain the battery will be down to 50% in another 12 or so days.

At 12 Volts it is still enough to start the car but this is NOT what lead acid batteries like and will materially decrease its service life. If you aren't driving the car regularly your battery will last far longer if you put it on a .75 AMP to 2 AMP smart trickle charger like a Noco. The other option is to disconnect the negative battery during storage, but I find it a lot easier just to leave it on the trickle charger.


You can use the quick connect cable on the jump start terminals as well, they don't have to go on the battery itself. The reason I put them on mine was so I don't have to remove any of the under hood covers or the battery cover to hook up alligator clips each time I wanted to put the trickle charger on. On my LS you can't reach the battery terminals without opening the battery cover by the windshield.

Here is a picture of the LS460 Battery location. The panel with the Yellow sticker has to be removed at min to get alligator clips onto the battery.

 

[bigramma0786]

Well, since you guys gave so much assistance I wish I had a more interesting conclusion to this saga.

I bought the tester from HF and after some searching was going to opt for an Interstate battery as a replacement.

My battery was a Duralast Gold from AutoZone and I hadn’t thought to check the warranty status, so first I decided to stop by there again and see.

I was 1 month within the 3 year warranty so I had them test again and it came back good. They were adamant that the battery was good and just kind of shrugged it off as “probably the alternator, they do funky things”.

I asked if they could swap the battery under warranty anyway and, to my surprise they said yes without a fuss. I had expected they’d need to see a failing test result to swap under warranty, but nope.

So I put the new battery in and everything is fine. It’s been almost a week without issue.

Never got to use my tester or anything . Thanks again for the info.

If it does turn out to be parasitic I imagine I’ll know shortly, otherwise case closed.

 

[Dean2]

Glad it was an easy fix. People have a hard time believing a bad battery is so often the cause, especially since the crap testers used by most places often say a half dead battery is still good.

 

[Marshall]

So I put the new battery in and everything is fine. It’s been almost a week without issue.

Never got to use my tester or anything . Thanks again for the info.

If it does turn out to be parasitic I imagine I’ll know shortly, otherwise case closed.

A bit slow on the draw here , Truck is still fine, but I had a poor Honda battery, 2.5 yrs old that would not start the car if it sat for a week or 2, or if a door was not totally latched.
Honda said it was OK, b.s., So I did as Dean said and put a maintainer on it. That worked for a bit , but 3-4 month later it was still failing, At rest draw was 0.4 ma, so nothing going on there.
New Battery , a few months ago, and everything is fine, and I did not, will not go back to Honda.
BTW My 2014 battery is still good, How long?????? that is the question, I do carry a battery pack, that I had to keep in the Honda

 

[Jeepwalker]

Kudo's to Autozone for that. That is one nice thing about them and OReilly's. They warranty stuff sooo easily. They practically leap into gear to try to figure out how to warranty something for ya. At least that's been my experience. I remarked one time to a counter guy (when I was buying new pads)... how the old pad friction material had rusted off the backing plate. Now ...bear in mind, I was in the process of checking out, I think I even had my CC in hand. He stopped and said, "Wait, did you say the old ones rusted off?" I did, he looked up my warranty (on his computer) and w/o ever asking to see my old pads, he handed me the box of new pads and said, "Here you go, Sir. No charge. Hopefully you'll have better luck with these. (with a smile on his face)" Not only that, he told me to bring the rotors down if they were rough and they would turn them for free (providing they were within spec). Which we did.

I'm sure some people here will bring up OReilly or Autozone horror stories, but in terms of legit warranty claims, I've been impressed with them. I love those guys. Compared to Napa ...where I've had a business account for 20+ years, and I gotta really stammer and pull hair to get them to look up something I bought and warranty it. The counter guys usually blow a loooooonng breath of air, roll their eyes, another long exhale, letting me know I'm making their life miserable ....before doing a warranty look-up. They need to have a company-wide re-set on how to handle customer warranty claims.

Consequently I don't buy much from Napa like I used to. And when Autozone or OReilly looks up and see's all the stuff I buy, they're even more inclined to make things right. I don't want to make it sound like I go back for a lot of warranty issues, I don't. But now and then things don't work out, and I like that they take care of those things completely hassle-free and a smile on their face.

Anyway, glad you got your battery issue figured out!

 

[Jeepwalker]

Thanks for sharing the battery longevity map. I always thought warmer weather was better (when I was younger). We live in the 'best life' zone. I regularly get 10-ish years out of a quality L/A battery. I just took a yellow-top out of a car that was 15 years old...from the build-date on the battery. I've had a handful of L/A batteries go 14 years. Usually in like farm/lawn or construction equipment. I think the vibration helps keep the plates cleaner (just a theory). That or the implement batteries are built better with more internal supports, etc. But most quality L/A batteries I figure on 9-10 yrs if ya don't let them go/sit flat.

I used to get batteries from work (for free) when our company's service van's GPS would cause them to go flat over the weekend, and they'd freeze solid in the winter. We couldn't wait around for hours to get our service guys on the road so I'd just go down the block and buy new batteries and the service manager buddy would give me the old one. I had batteries coming out of the ***** for a while. Frozen solid batteries would last a good 10 yrs once you thawed them out (as long as they didnt' break open - rarely did they do that). But yeah I'd bring them home solid as a freekin brick and it would take a couple days in the basement to thaw out! LOL

I guess we don't have palm trees, deserts or oceas, but we get long-lasting batteries. Hmmm...not sure that's an even trade off

 

[truck2569]

Not an uncommon thread topic but a nuanced enough one that I might as well ask in a new post:

Came out to a non-starting truck the other day. I can't remember the voltage I read but ended up pulling the battery and putting it on a charger. Charger will put the battery up to 12.5+ with no issues and truck starts without issue.

Battery is only a couple years old so I went to Auto-zone and had them check the battery and they said "battery is still good" but it was "too low charge (<70%) to run the full test."

Issue is, battery will die within maybe a day and a half of non-use and unable to start the truck. Interior electronics will work, it tries, starter sol will click, but nada.

No battery lights or anything on dash. OBD reading says system is 14.1V or more when running, though I haven't checked at the terminals myself, but hence I don't think it's an alternator issue.

My first thought is there is some parasitic drain that I have to just bite the bullet and trace down, but another post suggests autozone's battery health test is meh. So I'm kinda of at the point of either dive into tracing a potentially phantom drain, or spend $ on a new battery despite this one's relative newness.


At this point I have pulled/charged/reinstalled the battery a handful of times. Any thoughts are appreciated.

I was having the same issue on my 3500. I went to Harbor Freight bought a solar panel and placed it on the dash for most folks I have a sun roof so I placed it up there. The solar panel kept my battery charged up and eliminated my battery drain from my clocks and other instruments that stay on in the truck even though the truck isn't running. Just a thought.

 

[Ken226]

And yes, we have expensive gas in Canada because our dictator has taxed the living hell out it.

During this past summer it peaked at just over $6 a US gallon for 87 and he's forced all the distributors to have Ethanol in all grades sold in Canada.

Canukistan money due to inflation! This don't count as political discussion, does it?


We're going that direction too.

 

[RamDiver]

Canukistan money due to inflation! This don't count as political discussion, does it?


We're going that direction too.View attachment 559680

Ours is called Justinflation but, he has 1 foot out the door now.

Killing the carbon tax will reduce supply chain costs and inflation, just good all around unless you're an Eco-maniac.

.

 

[Sherman Bird]

Below is the post I was referring to on finding parasitic drain.

High heat kills batteries faster than anything else, doesn't matter who makes the battery. AGMs in high heat die almost as fast as Lead Acid. If you have drained a battery dead, using a smart charger with a conditioner function will bring it back to near new, and it will be reliable.

View attachment 551869

Post I wrote earlier. Hope it helps.

In addition to high temperatures killing batteries prematurely, leaving cars sit and letting the battery drain down then recharge, dramatically shortens battery life, no matter what kind it is.

In order to understand how quick this happens on our heavily computerised cars I thought, I would run the test on my 2015 LS460 SWB AWD. I started with a quality Multimeter that has both DC and AC current(AMP) measuring capacity. You put the black lead into the common port, and the Red lead into the 10A port, may also be labelled just AC/DC A on some meter. Having Alligator clips on the end of the probes will make doing this a whole bunch easier.

I shut off the car, put the key FOB in the house in an RFID box, left the doors unlocked, and lifted the hood. My car does not have a hood open warning light so no hood open sensor that needs to be defeated. I disconnected the negative terminal on the battery, clipped the Red Lead to the battery terminal and the black lead to the Negative cable. I then opened and closed the drivers door. Reading popped to 4.8 amps with the interior lights coming on. Closed the drivers door, reading dropped to 2.7 amps and after about 30 seconds started to steadily drop. Within 90 seconds it was down to .7 amp and still dropping. Within three minutes it was reading between .03 and .04 amps, so 30 to 40 Miliamps.

I had read that the FOB being too close would cause the vehicle to wake up so I went in the house and got the FOB. Even right beside the car, not change in .03-.04 AMPs being drawn. Used the FOB to open the trunk, reading popped up to 6 Amps. Closed the Truck with the auto close system using the button on the trunk lid, reading stayed at 5-6 AMPs. As soon as the trunk latched the AMPs dropped to 2.5 and then kept dropping following the same pattern above. I tried a number of different combinations and permutations, including putting the push button start in the run position without stepping on the brake so the car didn't start. Remember, your multimeter is limited to 10 AMPs, if you start the car, or turn on high draw things like Headlights, you will likely pop the fuse that protects the multimeter.

No matter what combinations I tried, the at rest reading dropped back to the 30 to 40 miliamp reading. The only thing I didn't do that I wish I had done, was lock the doors and see if the at rest reading increased with the security system active. Since I park in a secure garage and never lock the car, I didn't think about that till I had it all buttoned up again.

Since the car sits for long periods of time I have attached a NOCO harness to to the battery terminals to make hooking up the trickle charger much easier. This way I can just plug the trickle charger in without having to remove the clips and lift the battery cover each time to attach alligator clips. I have these quick connects on all my vehicles. Even at only 40 Miliamp, a battery will drop below starting voltage in about a month, if it is stored cold it will go flat faster than that. Remember, lead acid batteries do not like to be discharge down to 11 Volts and recharged. They are much happier and last far longer if kept above 12.3 volts and that means a trickle charger is a good idea if you don't drive your car for at least 30 minutes every 3 or 4 days.

Hope this information helps those of you suffering from batteries going flat or dying prematurely.

View attachment 551870

View attachment 551871



View attachment 551872







Multimeters have a lot of different layouts, this is just for illustration.



View attachment 551873



View attachment 551874



As a followup, Charged the battery to full, after an hour off the charger, read 12.73. July 2023 OEM Lexus battery. After sitting in the garage un-driven for 8 days, battery now reads 12.45. So the constant drain, even though very small, definitely draws down the battery over time. Battery went from 100% to 80% in 8 days. Still lots of juice to start the car. Left parked with no trickle charger, and assuming an even rate of drain the battery will be down to 50% in another 12 or so days.

At 12 Volts it is still enough to start the car but this is NOT what lead acid batteries like and will materially decrease its service life. If you aren't driving the car regularly your battery will last far longer if you put it on a .75 AMP to 2 AMP smart trickle charger like a Noco. The other option is to disconnect the negative battery during storage, but I find it a lot easier just to leave it on the trickle charger.


You can use the quick connect cable on the jump start terminals as well, they don't have to go on the battery itself. The reason I put them on mine was so I don't have to remove any of the under hood covers or the battery cover to hook up alligator clips each time I wanted to put the trickle charger on. On my LS you can't reach the battery terminals without opening the battery cover by the windshield.

Here is a picture of the LS460 Battery location. The panel with the Yellow sticker has to be removed at min to get alligator clips onto the battery.

View attachment 551875

View attachment 551876

View attachment 551877

View attachment 551878



View attachment 551879

Nice Lexus! My record so far in 53 years of driving (legally) for a battery is 7 years. It was an AutoZone unit in my old 1990 GMC Suburban. For Houston's Brutal temps, that is excellent. The usual life span here is 2-3 years. I find it ironic that most batteries have a 2 year warranty!

 

[Sherman Bird]

Ours is called Justinflation but, he has 1 foot out the door now.

Killing the carbon tax will reduce supply chain costs and inflation, just good all around unless you're an Eco-maniac.

.

Carbon Tax! Geez! I remember when I was a wee lad. My grandmother would wax nostalgic about "When I was Young" and reminisce about being able to buy a hamburger meal for 9 cents, yada yada yada. Then she would make a sarcastic joke about people buying water in the future, and how gum was still just a nickel... uh, just look at things now! We humans are carbon based. DUH!

 

[TJP440]

I wonder what the factory spec is on a NORMAL parasitic drain. 30 to 40 ma is a pretty good draw.
Also wanted to comment I have read multiple places that "NEW" batteries are not the same as those made even 5 years ago. Many failures in 2-3 years. I've had one that was fine and failed on 10 minutes later. Chased my tail on that one as I've never had a battery just DIE within 10 minutes. What was strange is it would show 12+ V, turn on the lights etc. but as soon as one hit it with the starter load it would drop to ~ 2V. Within 30 seconds or so it would climb back up and show 12+V again

 

[truck2569]

I was having the same issue on my 3500. I went to Harbor Freight bought a solar panel and placed it on the dash for most folks I have a sun roof so I placed it up there. The solar panel kept my battery charged up and eliminated my battery drain from my clocks and other instruments that stay on in the truck even though the truck isn't running. Just a thought.

Another thought is if you have a weak cell in one of your batteries if you have a dual system like mine, it won't charge all the way up only like 80 percent.