For the guys who think deactivating the mds via a tune is a good idea

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mikeru

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Here is one data point. My 2014 6.4 at 90k miles had only one significantly worn roller and cam lobe. That one was *not* an MDS lifter. Some other lobes had 'skid marks' on them but there was not a clear correlation between them and which ones have MDS. All the rollers felt smooth rolling them by hand.

I replaced with latest Mopar MDS lifters, but I did not look closely at the roller bearings to see if they are different.

So I guess that puts me in the 'MDS isn't the main problem' camp. And I will shorten my oil change intervals. I always use the specified PUP oil but I don't know what the previous owner did for the first 80k miles.
The question is did you turn off MDS during those miles or did you let it do its thing?
 
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Wild one

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Thanks I was getting on their case about it yesterday when putting a clutch on my vette,the boxes the headers and exhaust take up a lot of space.How do you keep the 6-2 downshifts from happening?They are using HP.
My tuner did the 6th lock-out for the dyno,i'm not sure how he did it though.
 
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Wild one

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On my 2007 Quad Cab 1500, rwd, 5.7L HEMI truck, I turned off MDS thru my tuner in may 2014 @ 60K miles. I now have 103K+ miles on the truck. That is 43K+ miles without the activation of the MDS system. Still runs strong, has had the tick since I purchased the truck in 2013 @ 57K miles. My oil pressure on a 90° day is 50 psi @ 1,000+ rpm, & 27 @ 550+ rpm idle. I run AMSOIL Synthetic engine oil. I do not let my truck idle for very long, if it will be more than a few minutes, I run the rpms up for a few minutes. I know one day I will replace the valve train on this engine with aftermarket parts. Maybe this truck will outlast me in the long run.
The earlier trucks prior to VVT in 09 weren't as prone to lifter failure,like the later redesigned VVT engine is.They're issue was more dropped valve seats.
 
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Wild one

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Here is one data point. My 2014 6.4 at 90k miles had only one significantly worn roller and cam lobe. That one was *not* an MDS lifter. Some other lobes had 'skid marks' on them but there was not a clear correlation between them and which ones have MDS. All the rollers felt smooth rolling them by hand.

I replaced with latest Mopar MDS lifters, but I did not look closely at the roller bearings to see if they are different.

So I guess that puts me in the 'MDS isn't the main problem' camp. And I will shorten my oil change intervals. I always use the specified PUP oil but I don't know what the previous owner did for the first 80k miles.
Erik the note at the bottom might interest you.

Oops just noticed you're talking about a 6.4,ignore me,lol
I'd look into the lubegard thread though,as it's a good addition to your PUP 0W-40
 

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HEMIMANN

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I got an idea. Why don't you all donate a few hundred to the cause (ie: me) and I'll have someone tear down my engine and look at the lifters. Course while they're in there they may as well do some uh minor upgrades like a cam and MDS delete, but hey maybe we'll at least get some answers when it comes to lifter condition after 60k and no MDS.

It's a deal of the decade :33:

Naw - we're all moving on to Hurricane w*h*i*z motors instead.

Italy and France have declared this THE "solution!" (oh how I recoil at hearing those words in a French accent) for all North America trucks.
 

dordoc2506

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Modern Muscle Xtreme

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We have added a new section to the website for Hemi Tech articles! Below is our latest addition regarding Lifter failure in the G3 HEMI engine.
Gen 3 Hemi Lifter Failure, Hemi Tick, and P0300.
First, I would like to start off by saying, there is a large quantity of misinformation and BS on the internet regarding the Gen 3 Hemi’ s lifter issues. I have seen all sorts of theories, and “install this part to CURE your hemi engine” posts in forums and all over YouTube. Let’s first look at how the Hemi engine oils to better understand this failure. The main hydraulic lifter feed in the G3 Hemi oils backwards from most every other conventional pushrod V8 engine on the market. The oil travels up through a passage at the deck of the engine block, through a restrictor in the head gasket, up around the head bolts, up through a passage in the head, into the rocker shaft, from the rocker shaft through the rocker body to the pushrod, down the pushrod and finally into the lifter. In terms of how the MDS system operates, when the 4 solenoids located on top of the block open, this sends oil flow and pressure around the body of the MDS lifters to compress the plunger/check ball located on the side of the MDS lifter. When this is compressed, the hydraulic portion of the MDS lifter collapses, and the engine runs in 4-cylinder mode. Unlike GM DOD engines, the typical failure is not the actual hydraulic portion, it’s the lifter axle bearings that fail. When this occurs, the roller wheel starts to skid on the lobe of the camshaft and grind through it sending metal all through the engine. The early signs of lifter failure are a slight tick that can be audibly heard when the engine is running at idle. Later signs of failure include a P0300 code indicating a misfire. Further engine damage can be prevented by CEASING TO RUN THE ENGINE AFTER THE P0300 CODE POPS UP. Many shops and customers will unfortunately waste time/money by trying to replace a coil pack or injector for the cylinder that is misfiring, but 95% of the time P0300 code is present, a lifter axle bearing has already failed and is griding away into the camshaft. This leads us to the question, why does this system fail?
In my opinion the root cause of failure is a two-part problem. Issue #1 is the design of the needle bearings of the lifter. The very early HEMI engines had large roller bearings (and a smaller axle) on their lifters. For some unknown reason, Chrysler went away from this design, and made the needle bearings much smaller, and the axle larger. These small bearings do not seem to take the load of being constantly activated and deactivated as well as the early design lifters. The second issue is lubrication. As I mentioned earlier, the only way the actual lifter bore in these engines receives any oil is when the MDS solenoid opens to deactivate the 4 cylinders worth of lifters. This means that during idle, and when the MDS is not active, the body of the G3 Hemi lifter receives NO OIL! (Mild caveat here, the lifter does receive some splash lube up from the crankshaft, but it is VERY minimal as the main oil galley blocks a very large portion of the potential splash lube. Combine this with the very high cam/crank centerline (7.464 Inches-compare that to a small block chevy at 4.521”) and the potential for the lifter to get any splash lube is near zero.
The next logical question is, how to we fix it? We address the two issues I mentioned earlier (Needle bearing Size, and Lubrication). The Latest design 8784AD NON MDS lifters (Hellcat Lifters) have larger roller bearings, so this takes care of problem number one. To remedy problem number two, we simply need to install MDS plugs into the block. Installing the MDS plug allows for full flow of pressurized oil to go around the body of the lifter, and drip down on to the roller wheel to properly lubricate the bearings.
In summary, the fix is an MMX MDS Delete Kit. Our kits include the NON MDS Camshaft, NON MDS Hellcat Lifters, MDS Plugs, and other supporting hardware. This fully takes care of the needle bearing issue, and the lubrication issue. Buying quality oil and having a frequent oil change interval also helps tremendously with keeping the factory MDS system functioning for as long as possible.
-Byron Walker
How much will it cost me to purchase this kit from you and then add in the Hellcat Oil Pump as well?
 

Jammer24

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SO I read some of the original thread and not sure I understand how this makes sense..........

This means that during idle, and when the MDS is not active, the body of the G3 Hemi lifter receives NO OIL!

If this is true then the lifter and or cam lobe failure is on the non mds cylinder and not the one with it. Is this the case....??
 
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Wild one

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How much will it cost me to purchase this kit from you and then add in the Hellcat Oil Pump as well?
I don't think MMX is on here,but if you go to their site,you can price things out.
Matt Fikac at Moes is another good one to contact,along with Ryan Hogan at FRP



 
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Wild one

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SO I read some of the original thread and not sure I understand how this makes sense..........

This means that during idle, and when the MDS is not active, the body of the G3 Hemi lifter receives NO OIL!

If this is true then the lifter and or cam lobe failure is on the non mds cylinder and not the one with it. Is this the case....??
It takes about 16 min's to watch this video,it does a better job of explaining the system.

 
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Wild one

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How much will it cost me to purchase this kit from you and then add in the Hellcat Oil Pump as well?
Just noticed your in Calgary.Chris Zelinsky of Player 3 Tuning in Edmonton handles TSP cams,just don't use TSP lifters,you want either geniune Mopar lifters or Johnson lifters with the axle oiling.Apparently the Melling HV pump is cheaper then the Hellcat pump.
I'll warn you,it's not cheap to do a cam and then tune your truck in Canada though.

 

kdoublep

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Ram doesn't care if your lifters fail due to MDS.

My truck barely goes into MDS mode on its own...Not enough to rely on MDS for proper lubrication...so that negates RAM caring right there. You really have to drive like a g-ma to get MDS activated. That's not possible where I live.

Live by the Hemi, die by the Hemi.
 

CanuckRam1313

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Just noticed your in Calgary.Chris Zelinsky of Player 3 Tuning in Edmonton handles TSP cams,just don't use TSP lifters,you want either geniune Mopar lifters or Johnson lifters with the axle oiling.Apparently the Melling HV pump is cheaper then the Hellcat pump.
I'll warn you,it's not cheap to do a cam and then tune your truck in Canada though.

About $10K or so, all in. This is a conservative number.

Depending on who's cam, what lifters, MDS delete kit, any extra bits one puts in while surgery is happening, labour, and the HP tuner with additional computer, and then paying for the tune.
 

ramffml

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Thinking about it more: if increasing idle to 750+ helps, then why does disabling MDS matter? Either it gets lubed enough at 750 rpms, or it doesn't. If disabling MDS is damaging the lifters at 1200 driving down the road then there is no point in increasing your idle rpms.

Either the crank throws enough splash at a given RPM or it doesnt, so those 2 ideas kind of conflict with eachother, right?

Same with combining "no idle" with increase idle rpms. If raising your idle helps, then it should be able to idle for hours with 0 issues.

Just the more I think about it the more confused everything seems.

I still think this is like a wheel bearing; some wheel bearings fail at 50k miles, and the others on the truck fail at 150k miles. Nobody starts thinking there is not enough cooling/air flow to the wheel (or whatever), we just accept its a bad/poorly made part that failed before its time. Yet with lifters we're all so eager to find overly complicated theories and solutions.
 
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