In need of help w/ gremlin before long trip. truck cranked, but wouldnt start.

[nikwho]

Hello all,
I am a little stumped with an issue with my 2008 Megacab w/ 5.7 Hemi. This morning (31 degrees) I started my truck with no issue. I pulled it around to hook up to my boat. I had to shut it off to get my keys out of the ignition to unlock the hitch lock. I started it back up and continued to hook up the boat. I noticed a minute or so later that I heard the radio, but the engine was not running. I thought that perhaps I turned the key on and forgot to start it, but when I went to start it, it cranked, but would not fire. I did not hear the fuel pump when I turned the key on, but then could not remember if I normally could. I searched a little on line and someone suggested arming and disarming the alarm, then trying to start it. When I did this, I think that I could hear the fuel pump momentarily. The engine fired briefly, then stopped. I cycled the key again and it started and drove just as it always has. This truck has 138K miles and has had no real issues and has had no major repairs. Normal preventative maintenance performed by either myself of the dealership. It threw no codes and showed no dash lights, aside from the check engine light just when it was not running. I was just going to check if it was getting spark and fuel, then it started and all symptoms went away. I am planning on a 1140 mile trip in three days. I was hoping to track this gremlin down before my trip starts. I need to drive this truck because I have to haul a bunch of tools, a new wood stove, chimney and fascia boards that I am installing in the rental house.

Any thoughts based on these symptoms? It resolved before I could diagnose or test anything. I really have the feeling that it was the fuel pump. I was thinking that it could have been just low fuel w/ the fuel gauge reading wrong, but when it resolved I drove it about ten miles before stopping for fuel.

Do these trucks need a signal from the camshaft position sensor in order to run the fuel pump? I am thinking that it is something along the lines of the cam position sensor, fuel pump or perhaps a wiring issue with pump(unlikely). I want to get it resolved, but don't want to blindly throw parts at it.

I may have to wait for it to reoccur to diagnose, but thought that there may be common or frequent issues that cause these symptoms.

Any thoughts?

Thanks much,
Nik

 

[Gecko]

Use your Schrader valve to check if you have fuel pressure. If you don't then it's the pump. If you do start looking somewhere else.

 

[RonJon '06]

I would think that if it was running, then shut off all by itself that the fuel pump is on it's way out.

 

[nikwho]

Use your Schrader valve to check if you have fuel pressure. If you don't then it's the pump. If you do start looking somewhere else.

But, I would recon that I would have good pressure now. It is still running strong, asymptomatic. I dont know if I should just wait for this problem to show itself again, or just gamble by throwing parts at it. I was really thinking it is the fuel pump, so I bought a new one, just in case.

I would think that if it was running, then shut off all by itself that the fuel pump is on it's way out.

This is what I thought. But, also I thought that I would have a check engine light with some "bank lean" codes if it just ran out of fuel from an intermittent pump!?

Does this sound like a familiar or common problem? Are there other common problems that cause similar symptoms? It's kind of hard to diagnose when the truck is running great with no problems. I bought some Champion Copper plugs, too, not knowing if it's on its original set w/ 138K miles. Not that plugs are my issue.

When the fuel pumps go out, is it common to see them intermitantly fail like that? If so, is there a pattern, such as they typically stop intermitantly for quite some time but will allow you a little time to make repairs when it's convenient, or is it common to have them act up a time or two then totally fail? I'm stuck at work for 48 hours, then I am scheduled to leave Friday morning, putting 400 miles on my truck (crossing desert from AZ to Palm Springs with my son) on Friday, working like crazy, then putting another 400 miles on it driving home on Saturday! If they are prone to sudden complete death, I'd prefer to take the day off of work tomorrow and change the fuel pump on a lift, with all of my tools and a nice big Grey Trans jack that I could use to lower the tank, rather than trying to attempt it on the side of the road with basic hand tools! I just hate throwing (expensive) parts at it if there is a high probability that something else is the cause. Is there a "typical" age or mileage that these pumps typically fail?

Thanks much for any help!!

Nik C.

 

[RonJon '06]

I had a '97 Ram that killed at the same stop sign a few times about 2 weeks before the fuel pump went out. That was at 150K miles. I think most of the time a bad fuel pump will not throw a DTC, maybe because the problem is too intermittent? I replaced mine last winter at 160K miles because the truck was down for repairs and like you I didn't like the idea of being stuck on the side of the road.

Both Gecko and I have. had some crazy things happen with our new fuel pumps. Mine has settled into a pattern where when I fill it up the needle rises very slowly and won't go all the way to the top. My low fuel level warning light comes on when there are still about 6 gallons left in the tank. For the first 5 or 6 tankfulls it wouldn't start without pressing the gas pedal but it has since stopped doing this. It always happened when the tank was about half full so I don't think I can blame it on the tune.

 

[shaftman_05]

Sadly if it isnt acting up you most likely wont find it since there is no way to know if its a sensor, pump, electrical, etc problem. Everyone can guess all day but if its not currently broken your finding a specific needle in field of needles covered in hay.

 

[Gecko]

I had a '97 Ram that killed at the same stop sign a few times about 2 weeks before the fuel pump went out. That was at 150K miles. I think most of the time a bad fuel pump will not throw a DTC, maybe because the problem is too intermittent? I replaced mine last winter at 160K miles because the truck was down for repairs and like you I didn't like the idea of being stuck on the side of the road.

Both Gecko and I have. had some crazy things happen with our new fuel pumps. Mine has settled into a pattern where when I fill it up the needle rises very slowly and won't go all the way to the top. My low fuel level warning light comes on when there are still about 6 gallons left in the tank. For the first 5 or 6 tankfulls it wouldn't start without pressing the gas pedal but it has since stopped doing this. It always happened when the tank was about half full so I don't think I can blame it on the tune.

This.

You won't throw any codes or anything that will make you think some things wrong. It will just shut off. And then won't let you start back up again. I would change it before you go on your trip as I speak from experience it sucks when it happens in the middle of nowhere. And since you say you already have the pump it will be cheaper to do it yourself than pay someone.

I'm replacing my pump for the 3rd time this year in November when I upgrade to a higher flow pump to go with my supercharger. The first replacement pump they gave me was defective and I've been having problems with the level reader with the second one so I'm just going to replace it again lol

 

[nikwho]

Well, at least I'm hearing from you guys the same things I have been thinking that kept me up until 1:30 last night. Sounds like if it is not the pump, it won't neccessarily be "throwing parts at it" since it sounds fairly common for these pumps to fail at about my mileage. I guess that I can consider it preventative maintenance, even if it's not my trucks current issue. That may or may not help me on the side of the road tomorrow 100 miles from ANYWHERE, but probably pretty cheap insurance.

Too bad about the issues experienced with the aftermarket pump. I think (hope) that I got a good pump! I bought an Airtex E7182M pump. Thoughts??

So, since I'm going to tackle this on in the am before my trip, now I have to decide if I am going to drop the tank or pull the bed!! I'll be using a BendPak two post lift and have a Grey transmission jack that will go up pretty dang far. So, I'm thinking that since I only have 1/4 tank of gas, and the tank looks like (at a glance) it's really only held in place by two straps, I am thinking that my best bet will be dropping the tank.

So, all folks work at different speeds, but this seems like a pretty straight forward job. I'm seeing running the truck up the lift, pulling the straps, lowering tank slightly to disconnect fuel lines and electrical plug, R & R pump and put it back together. Is this about as time consuming as a tranny fluid and filter swap?

Do I need any Dodge specific tools? Is this a quarter turn ring that holds the fuel pump in like my Chevy's? Will my fuel line disconnect tools that I used for my Chevy's work to DC my fuel lines?

I really appreciate the help, guys!

Nik

 

[Gecko]

Well, at least I'm hearing from you guys the same things I have been thinking that kept me up until 1:30 last night. Sounds like if it is not the pump, it won't neccessarily be "throwing parts at it" since it sounds fairly common for these pumps to fail at about my mileage. I guess that I can consider it preventative maintenance, even if it's not my trucks current issue. That may or may not help me on the side of the road tomorrow 100 miles from ANYWHERE, but probably pretty cheap insurance.

Too bad about the issues experienced with the aftermarket pump. I think (hope) that I got a good pump! I bought an Airtex E7182M pump. Thoughts??

So, since I'm going to tackle this on in the am before my trip, now I have to decide if I am going to drop the tank or pull the bed!! I'll be using a BendPak two post lift and have a Grey transmission jack that will go up pretty dang far. So, I'm thinking that since I only have 1/4 tank of gas, and the tank looks like (at a glance) it's really only held in place by two straps, I am thinking that my best bet will be dropping the tank.

So, all folks work at different speeds, but this seems like a pretty straight forward job. I'm seeing running the truck up the lift, pulling the straps, lowering tank slightly to disconnect fuel lines and electrical plug, R & R pump and put it back together. Is this about as time consuming as a tranny fluid and filter swap?

Do I need any Dodge specific tools? Is this a quarter turn ring that holds the fuel pump in like my Chevy's? Will my fuel line disconnect tools that I used for my Chevy's work to DC my fuel lines?

I really appreciate the help, guys!

Nik

I can't comment on the process of replacing the pump (I paid a shop lol) but I replaced mine with just a new stock one that seemed to be defective. I then replaced that with another stock one that also may be defective lol I'll be going with an AEM pump in a month.

 

[shaftman_05]

Well, at least I'm hearing from you guys the same things I have been thinking that kept me up until 1:30 last night. Sounds like if it is not the pump, it won't neccessarily be "throwing parts at it" since it sounds fairly common for these pumps to fail at about my mileage. I guess that I can consider it preventative maintenance, even if it's not my trucks current issue. That may or may not help me on the side of the road tomorrow 100 miles from ANYWHERE, but probably pretty cheap insurance.

Too bad about the issues experienced with the aftermarket pump. I think (hope) that I got a good pump! I bought an Airtex E7182M pump. Thoughts??

So, since I'm going to tackle this on in the am before my trip, now I have to decide if I am going to drop the tank or pull the bed!! I'll be using a BendPak two post lift and have a Grey transmission jack that will go up pretty dang far. So, I'm thinking that since I only have 1/4 tank of gas, and the tank looks like (at a glance) it's really only held in place by two straps, I am thinking that my best bet will be dropping the tank.

So, all folks work at different speeds, but this seems like a pretty straight forward job. I'm seeing running the truck up the lift, pulling the straps, lowering tank slightly to disconnect fuel lines and electrical plug, R & R pump and put it back together. Is this about as time consuming as a tranny fluid and filter swap?

Do I need any Dodge specific tools? Is this a quarter turn ring that holds the fuel pump in like my Chevy's? Will my fuel line disconnect tools that I used for my Chevy's work to DC my fuel lines?

I really appreciate the help, guys!

Nik

Airtex is the worst!!! Changed many of them after only a month of install on every make and model.

No it is not a quarter turn style.

Yes there is a special tool for it. But with some ingenuity it can be done with channel locks or similar. Its a plastic ring that is removed with a tool that
engages onto two of the ears of the ring.

I would say its definitely longer than a trans service but not impossible. Depends on the condition of the bolts that hold the straps and clips they tighten to.

 

[RonJon '06]

Airtex is the worst!!! Changed many of them after only a month of install on every make and model.

No it is not a quarter turn style.

Yes there is a special tool for it. But with some ingenuity it can be done with channel locks or similar. Its a plastic ring that is removed with a tool that
engages onto two of the ears of the ring.

I would say its definitely longer than a trans service but not impossible. Depends on the condition of the bolts that hold the straps and clips they tighten to.

That figures....mine is an Airtex. I guess I should have asked first.

When I dropped my tank I wasn't able to disconnect the fuel supply line at the pump. I ended up damaging the fitting and then couldn't find the right replacement. Right now I just have it patched with rubber fuel line.

 

[nikwho]

Well, now I have purchased a Precision fuel pump. Are they any better?
The oe fuel pump has officially died! The truck has a FULL fuel tank. It's a MegaCab, so the pump sits right between the cab and bed. I have two questions that I was hopeful I could get some opinions on from guys that have done this swap before.

1: should I pay to have the truck towed to my work so that I can perform the work in a full shop with lift and pneumatic transmission jack (so that I could leave the bed on and drop the tank) or should I do it in place without any luxury tools/amenities?

2: It looks like the pump will come out if I slid the bed back a foot or two. I will be doing the swap by myself. Any experience with getting the pump out and back in with the bed slid off, specifically on a MegaCab?

Full disclosure, I went ahead with the trip (because my Mom needed help and I didn't want to install the Airtex pump, hearing that they are the worst). So, I drove to Palm Springs, camped in Joshua Tree National Park, installed a new wood stove in the rental house, driove half way back home and stayed the night in Laughlin, NV. Yesterday morning it wouldn't start, so we went to the Arcade in Harrahs casino and spent about $60 playing video games and had lunch. My mom was with us (caravaned to Laughlin) so we took her truck (cummins) and I bought the Precision pump and some fuel line disconnect tools, preparing to perform the repair in the parking lot of the Belle casino. After lunch, we returned to the truck and I was mentally prepared to just cut a hole in the bed floor (I have a big inverter, drill and saws-all with me) when locating the exact coordinates of the pump, I realized that it was right between the cab and bed. I had a long thin piece of hardi backer board (from repairs on rental house) that I banged on the pump with. The truck started, so we headed East! We made it up the grade and down into Kingman, AZ. I didn't have quite enough fuel to get back to Flagstaff (130 miles "to empty" and 147 miles away from home). I was lured by the passing of the cheapest gas in AZ ($2.85/gal.; its $2.35 at home). So, hind sight being 20/20, I clearly see that this was a mistake). I stopped at the fuel station, but didn't shut it off!!! I topped off the tank, thinking I was helping the pump with cooling, and continued down the road. We made it six more miles down I-40. The truck sporadically lost power and we coasted to a stop. Insurance only covers first 15 miles of tow, would have cost $530 to get towed home. Got towed back to Kingman and got a hotel room (the girl at the counter gave us a great rate after I volunteered my sob story). So, I can insert a plug for the Ramada in Kingman, AZ, off of Andy Devine Rd. so, now the mechanic shop next door (where my dead truck currently resides) wants $350 (Labor Only) to swap he pump. Uhaul shows that they have no available truck to rent to tow my heap home. So, my son and I are stuck here in Kingman (on my wife's birthday) trying to get home. My one cried with a cummins and trailer suitable to tow us is out of town, visiting his family. Trying to get creative in getting home or repaired. I'm half tempted to just drop the tank in place and fumble through it. I think I have everything needed to do it.
I'll update when we figure something out!

 

[Gecko]

350 sounds about right. When I payed for my swap it was about 500 for parts and labor. I believe the pumps are about 150 or so so the labor sounds about right.

As for which method of installing being better it's up to you. I've heard of people doing both (dropping the tank or moving the bed). I know the shop I went to dropped the tank. I would think this is the easier option but it's all up to you.

 

[RonJon '06]

I wouldn't drop it, not with a full 35 Gal. tank. Mine wasn't even 1/4 full and it was a struggle getting it back up by myself.

 

[hemihustlin]

I know it sucks, bu i would get it towed to your shop where you can work on it comfort, rather than doing it on the ground (sucks) or paying someone else to do it (also sucks)
You are unfortunatly stuck between a rock, a hard place and a towing lol

 

[Gecko]

Thinking about it after reading this again I would choose the cheaper option. If towing is going to cost almost 600 and paying some one is only 350 I'd probably let them do it and then drive it home. Just my thoughts...

 

[xb1230]

Ditto on Gecko's comment.

I'd choose the least $$ option and be on my merry way without the hassle of having to mess with it.

35 Gallons of fuel can get pretty heavy. Doing it myself I would look at moving the bed, especially in a non-work friendly environment, but it could be a real hassle to get it off of there...

Whatever you decide, make sure you buy your wife a dozen roses before you get home, and good luck with both issues. (fuel Pump, and the wife...)

 

[hemihustlin]

Yup, this is true, did not think about the cost of towing being more than paying the other guy.
Makes me want to start looking for deals on a fuel pump haha

In this case OP, i believe we have come to a consensus. Go the cheapest and most logical route!

 

[nikwho]

Well, sorry it took so long for me to update! Well, I just didn't have it in me to pay that mechanic, or the towing company that much. On top of that, the mechanic said "he'd get to it after lunch" and that it would be "done by the end of the day. So, there was a construction crew digging a trench and doing some utility work in the parking lot of our hotel. They had part of the hotel parking lot closed for construction. I asked the Forman (operator of backhoe) for a tow from the shop next door. He happily stopped working and towed me back to the closed section of the parking lot and told me that it'd be fine for me to work on my truck back there. Using my truck jack, a couple of 2"x4"'s, some fire wood, a crescent wrench and a flat head screwdriver, I went to work. My son got a lesson in roadside mechanic-ing! We had dropped the tank (completely full less six miles of driving), DC'd all lines, swapped pumps, and re-installed the tank in exactly two hours! Went really smoothly, actually! Removing and replacing the lock nuts from the tank straps on the 3" long bolts was horrible, BUT, we really didn't have much trouble. My son got to hang out in the hotel room for part of the debacle and my wife's friends' Father stopped by to lend me a hand and drove me down the road to the dodge dealership to purchase a replacement clip for my fuel line (they didn't sell them, but the gentleman at the parts counter cut off an older style clip that they no longer sold off of his display board and sold it to me for $2! It really was not a bad job. Oh, also, I was able to go buy another pump (Precision) that may or may not be as big of a POS as the Airtex. Got a full refund on the Airtex. Wrapped up the job and the truck fired right up! We got home in time for dinner and I was able to make dinner for my wife, buy the biggest, nicest bouquet of Lily's and Roses, and got my wife a couple of extra gift certificates to some of the "lady shops" that she likes (with the money NOT spent paying the towing co. or mechanic on I-40 that was attempting to take advantage of broken down motorists! I took great pleasure in replacing the pump in the Parking lot right next door to his shop, and driving out of the lot past him, with my truck repaired a couple of hours later. :-D I understand him charging a premium, I guess. He would have probably had to have push back scheduled work on his regular customers cars to screw with mine, I just didn't particularly appreciate him telling me that with a full compliment of tools and a lift, that it would "take every bit of 5 - 5.5 hrs of labor, since the tank is full"! He WAS kind enough to give me a jump, since the tow truck driver left the key on. Oh well, no harm, no foul! Had a great time with my son, got home in time for my wife's Birthday dinner AND saved a lot of money. Thanks to all of you guys that offered advice along the way!

 

[nikwho]

Tank was down about an inch from the top of the pump!