Pacesetter LT's

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Redtruck-VA

Redtruck-VA

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Well using two of the 03 cats will flow 100% better than it does now with a single cat. The LT's will out flow the stock log manifolds. So my guess is there should be a good increase with the upcoming changes.
 

Torque

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Okay, thanks. So if I was to put on shorties or mids then it might be worth the $80 to change the stock cat to a mag hiflow.
 

HemiSwapped06

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The highflow may have actuallly flowed a bit better than the stock OEM cat and because of that it reduced the back preasure more than what is needed or desired and cut your times. When I was running around with no cats for a while my lowend suffered.

The best amount of backpressure is NO backpressure on a Hemi.:Wedgie:
 

HemiSwapped06

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Okay, thanks. So if I was to put on shorties or mids then it might be worth the $80 to change the stock cat to a mag hiflow.

I have the manifolds, catalysts and Y-pipe on my 06 QCSB 2wd and it has run an 8.72 @ 76.5 on a 1.94s 60' through them with a single 3" magnaflow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dYtz2xga8

That run went 8.89 @ 75.94 with a 2.08s 60', trying to load the converter. Have since found simply dropping the hammer from idle on the drag radials will give a sub 2.00s 60' everytime.
 
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truckin151

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The best amount of backpressure is NO backpressure on a Hemi.:Wedgie:

Gotta disagree there, topend will flurish but lowend takes a hit w/out it. My truck ran like crap with an open exhaust and was a dog off the line
 

HemiSwapped06

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Gotta disagree there, topend will flurish but lowend takes a hit w/out it. My truck ran like crap with an open exhaust and was a dog off the line

Properly tuned it will absolutely rip with NO backpressure, just needs a little velocity, such as a 30" peice of pipe after the header.
 

truckin151

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You can say what you want but no cats + lt headers + custom tune = a noticeable loss of lowend. Cats opened up to 3" in/out and reinstalled lowend came back. Say what you want, but from first hand experience you need some backpressure.
 

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I have the manifolds, catalysts and Y-pipe on my 06 QCSB 2wd and it has run an 8.72 @ 76.5 on a 1.94s 60' through them with a single 3" magnaflow.

YouTube - Hemi Ram Kennedale

That run went 8.89 @ 75.94 with a 2.08s 60', trying to load the converter. Have since found simply dropping the hammer from idle on the drag radials will give a sub 2.00s 60' everytime.

Are you still running the 4.7L PCM?
 

HemiSwapped06

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You can say what you want but no cats + lt headers + custom tune = a noticeable loss of lowend. Cats opened up to 3" in/out and reinstalled lowend came back. Say what you want, but from first hand experience you need some backpressure.

Backpressure is bad, velocity is good. Factory catalyst will slow you down across the board.

THe reason your low-end came back is your PCM is happy with the readings it is getting after the stock cats. If the post catalyst reading is not correct performance suffers.
 

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I didn't think the post o2 sensors did anything other than check cat efficiency to keep EPA happy.
 

truckin151

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I didn't think the post o2 sensors did anything other than check cat efficiency to keep EPA happy.

You are correct, that's all they do. The front O2's are what make the pcm happy, the rrear o2s are for checking the cats.
 

HemiSwapped06

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You are correct, that's all they do. The front O2's are what make the pcm happy, the rrear o2s are for checking the cats.

I have noticed on more than one vehicle the performance suffers if the PCM believes the catalyst is not working efficiently. The PCM cuts fuel delivery and reduces timing to clean up the post cat. So its not as cut and dry with these new PCMs.
 

Hammer_Z71

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I omitted the cats when I installed my LT headers and ended up putting them back on. I agree with truckin' that there was a perceptible loss of low end torque.

I also agree with Hemiswapped in that backpressure is bad. In a nutshell, it's engine inefficiency.

I went all thru this big-time with Marty when he had KRC Performance when I did my headers. He suggested the local coating shop that I had do my ceramic coating and never had a problem with me picking his brain, even if I was doing the work and he wasn't seeing a dime out of it.

He had dynos on his laptop of Hemis b4 and after headers/omit cats/ omit Y and better flow muffler. Peak torque is increased, no question, BUT the torque curve moves up in the rpm band CONSIDERABLY. So, in a nutshell, you DO get torque gains with headers and a better flow, BUT it's actually worse down low in the RPM band.

The ideal fix for this is to do engine mods that enhance the low end torque (usually at the cost of high end HP - think diesel here, they are low end torque monsters, but usually don't have near the HP as a gasser - un-modded, of course).

I could have had the best of both worlds, next to non-existent backpressure AND gobs of low end torque IF I went with a cam designed better for low end than the stock 5.7 cam and had a tune to support it. Due to funding, I simply opted to put the cats in which created just enough backpressure to feel I lost no low end torque. My butt dyno feels about the same amount of low end as stock, but mid-high rpm gains are substantial. I actually had him order a cam (210) with a slight (-4*) modification to enhance my low end torque, but after it sat in the garage in a box for nearly 3 years, I sold it.

Bottom line - having no backpressure is great for power, more efficient, better on fuel, etc. BUT you really need other mods to support it and get the full benefit from it.


As for the O2 sensors, the purpose of the forward sensor is to measure the amount of unburned oxygen in the exhaust system left after combustion. Based on this reading, the sensor genrates a voltage which is read by the fuel managent program within the PCM. Based on this reading, against a pre-programmed "range" for residual O2 in the exhaust, the PCM will either release more or less fuel for the next combustion cycle.

The rearward O2 will take the same reading and sends the corresponding voltage to the PCM which is read against the reading of the front O2. There is a "range" of acceptable ratios pre-programmed into the emissions program within the PCM which contain a higher residual 02 count, meaning the cats are removing contaminants from the exhaust gasas and it has more oxygen than the front measured. If the ratio is outside of these pre-programmed parameters, a message is sent via a CEL.

The PCM makes NO fuel trim adjustments based off of readings from the rear O2 sensor. It is in essence, a warning system alarming you of a problem with a cat or a leak in the system...
 
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HemiSwapped06

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The rearward O2 will take the same reading and sends the corresponding voltage to the PCM which is read against the reading of the front O2. There is a "range" of acceptable ratios pre-programmed into the emissions program within the PCM which contain a higher residual 02 count, meaning the cats are removing contaminants from the exhaust gasas and it has more oxygen than the front measured. If the ratio is outside of these pre-programmed parameters, a message is sent via a CEL.

The PCM makes NO fuel trim adjustments based off of readings from the rear O2 sensor. It is in essence, a warning system alarming you of a problem with a cat or a leak in the system...

This logic is flawed on a NGC Ram PCM. The PCM is programmed so that it CAN AND WILL adjust the fuel deliver based off the catalytic converter efficiency and rear 02 readings. It is amazing what the engineers have given the PCM ability to control to keep the emissions as clean as possible.
 

KGBIGCOUNTRY

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Eff the Dodge PCM... I wanna be rich have have a stand alone system.
 

Hammer_Z71

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This logic is flawed on a NGC Ram PCM. The PCM is programmed so that it CAN AND WILL adjust the fuel deliver based off the catalytic converter efficiency and rear 02 readings. It is amazing what the engineers have given the PCM ability to control to keep the emissions as clean as possible.

I dunno, I got it straight from someone who had access to the source code who was a sub-contracted programmer for a tuner company. At least this wasa the case for an '04 PCM... Or he is mistaken...


If the PCM adjusts for readings from the rear sensors, then how is it possible nothing changes on a wideband when you pull the rear sensors? I would think A/F would have to change at least a little, it sure does when you pull a front one. I'm 99% sure of this, but I'll pull a rear sensor and check to be sure monday...
 
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truckin151

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Its like that with the 05's rear O2's are for emissions only. Wont change anything with the pcm.
 

Hammer_Z71

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Its like that with the 05's rear O2's are for emissions only. Wont change anything with the pcm.

Hemiswapped has got me curious now though. It's easy for me to disconnect my rear O2s, I soldered in male/female push connectors when I extended the wires to reach the sensors which are farther back due to the headers.

If the PCM adjusts for rear O2 readings, it has to make a change to fuel trim.

I'd do it tomorrow but I'm in a golf tourney...
 

truckin151

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Doyou have anything to read fuel trims though? I know the ai will
 
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