6.4 or 6.7 for the next truck?

[sandawilliams]

So in your area, the resale/trade-in difference between a Laramie trim and a Tradesman is closer? I would think that if they are quoting below KBB on the Laramie trim then would also be quoting below KBB on the Tradesman trim which means the same thing I said before still applies, but with lower figures for both. It would not make sense that they would be less than KBB on a Laramie trim, but be at or above KBB on a Tradesman trim.

Negotiating 101 from an old bull. Last three Rams all bought from different dealers on the front range of Colorado. Started dealing on the truck and first thing out of their mouths is "got a trade". Told them I would deal outright and talk trade later. At full sticker they were ready to offer above average retail value on my old trucks. As we dealt back and forth (sometimes hours) I would get the cash buy down to what I thought was all I could do. $56k sticker vs. 43k out the door. Then we started talking trade. On the last truck the best they would do is average auction price which was 5k below trade in value. That's when I know I've done all I can on negotiating. I always took my old trucks home and sold them myself for what they actually were worth. Many people need to trade in when buying another truck and I understand that but you can still use some of these suggestions in negotiating.

 

[Docpaulo]

Negotiating 101 from an old bull. Last three Rams all bought from different dealers on the front range of Colorado. Started dealing on the truck and first thing out of their mouths is "got a trade". Told them I would deal outright and talk trade later. At full sticker they were ready to offer above average retail value on my old trucks. As we dealt back and forth (sometimes hours) I would get the cash buy down to what I thought was all I could do. $56k sticker vs. 43k out the door. Then we started talking trade. On the last truck the best they would do is average auction price which was 5k below trade in value. That's when I know I've done all I can on negotiating. I always took my old trucks home and sold them myself for what they actually were worth. Many people need to trade in when buying another truck and I understand that but you can still use some of these suggestions in negotiating.

This is the truth... they typically offer auction value as they will send vehicle to auction... once the guy even showed me the results when he ran the auction numbers...

Keep in mind if your state has a trade in sales tax allowance thats 10% or so extra you're! Saving

The dealer knows that too

 

[dmillar74]

I'm a huge diesel fan... however, I’m almost entirely gas now with my company fleet. I used to have Dodge Rams with the Cummins diesel motor, GM pickups with the Duramax, Ford with the HORRENDOUS 6 L power stroke, and Isuzu box trucks with their diesel motor. I’ve been in business for 25 years and I have now almost entirely switched to gas motors. I’m tired of those expensive emission repairs, injection pumps, injectors, def pumps, and a flurry of other extremely expensive repairs. I now have a 6.0 liter GM gas motor in one of my Isuzu box trucks, a 2016 Ram 2500 with the 6.4 L hemi, and a 3500 transit with the gas 3.5 eco- boost motor. I still have three more diesels in my fleet. They will probably be the last. The hemi has been phenomenal at pulling trailers, the eco-boost transit has been great as well, and the 6 L Chevy motor in the Isuzu box truck has been amazing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[6.4 dude]

I'm a huge diesel fan... however, I’m almost entirely gas now with my company fleet. I used to have Dodge Rams with the Cummins diesel motor, GM pickups with the Duramax, Ford with the HORRENDOUS 6 L power stroke, and Isuzu box trucks with their diesel motor. I’ve been in business for 25 years and I have now almost entirely switched to gas motors. I’m tired of those expensive emission repairs, injection pumps, injectors, def pumps, and a flurry of other extremely expensive repairs. I now have a 6.0 liter GM gas motor in one of my Isuzu box trucks, a 2016 Ram 2500 with the 6.4 L hemi, and a 3500 transit with the gas 3.5 eco- boost motor. I still have three more diesels in my fleet. They will probably be the last. The hemi has been phenomenal at pulling trailers, the eco-boost transit has been great as well, and the 6 L Chevy motor in the Isuzu box truck has been amazing.

I have a 5500 with a 6.4. Went to the parts house to get an oil filter and had to tell the kid behind the counter 3 times " yes it's a gas engine". He couldn't grasp the thought of a 12k gasser I guess.

 

[SouthTexan]

It has been the opposite for us. My company has over a 500 truck fleet within units 180 locations. Our mobile service trucks(all cab in chassis 350/3500's to 550/5500's) are almost all diesels with the acception of a 50 or so gas service trucks. We generally run these trucks to around 200k miles and then get rid of them at auction.

Being a company that is run by analytics, we track costs on everything down to the penny. We don't just think something costs more or less based on our gut feeling or one time maintenance cost. We know how much it costs from the insurance all the way to the downtime of that unit not making any money. By far our Cummins are the the cheapest in total life costs when you account how much we get for them at auction, better fuel economy, and the less downtime due to longer service intervals. The gas engines do have a lower cost at each maintenance, but they are more frequent meaning the truck is in the shop more not making any money. Then there is resale at auction. There is hardly any value in a 200k mile cab and chassis gas truck while there is still plenty in a diesel truck.

 

[Docpaulo]

It has been the opposite for us. My company has over a 500 truck fleet within units 180 locations. Our mobile service trucks(all cab in chassis 350/3500's to 550/5500's) are almost all diesels with the acception of a 50 or so gas service trucks. We generally run these trucks to around 200k miles and then get rid of them at auction.

Being a company that is run by analytics, we track costs on everything down to the penny. We don't just think something costs more or less based on our gut feeling or one time maintenance cost. We know how much it costs from the insurance all the way to the downtime of that unit not making any money. By far our Cummins are the the cheapest in total life costs when you account how much we get for them at auction, better fuel economy, and the less downtime due to longer service intervals. The gas engines do have a lower cost at each maintenance, but they are more frequent meaning the truck is in the shop more not making any money. Then there is resale at auction. There is hardly any value in a 200k mile cab and chassis gas truck while there is still plenty in a diesel truck.

Exactly... if you run the diesel like that its a no brainer... of course diesel is the better choice..

The OP is far from this scenario.. towing 4x a year doesnt really lead ro the same cost benefit..

I could afford the diesel but went with the powerwagon laramie.. cost more than some diesels... and does everything i need it to... all boils down to ones needs... not everybody is a fleet operator

 

[tjfdesmo]

I can't say dollars were not part of the equation for me, but it boiled down to two primary factors: 1. My store is only a couple miles from my house, so my truck sees way too many short trips. In Feb my truck will be three years old, and I just broke 18K miles. 2. Work has put a damper on my recreation, so I don't tow nearly as much as I used to. So, despite its weaknesses, and the annoying transmission, the 6.4 is the right choice for me. If I can get back to more recreation/towing I will go back to a CTD(my last truck was an '05 CTD)and enjoy that locomotive torque.

 

[mtofell]

I can see how dmillar74 having some of the horrendous 6.0 Furds in his fleet helped sour his opinion and balance sheet away from diesels. It's possible that both he and SouthTexan have made a correct decision based on their needs and experiences.

It's almost like an insurance risk pool. If you have a huge pool of trucks the diesels may make sense but a smaller fleet could suffer a few unfortunate events and skew the outcome.

OP, glad to hear you have a new ride. My 6.4 Hemi is a 9.8 out of 10 as a daily driver which is what I do 95% of the time. While towing (11K 5th wheel) it's manageable and overall fine. I could afford a new truck but the money looks much better in my IRA than in my driveway. I suppose I'm getting old and, dare I say, responsible

 

[SouthTexan]

I can see how dmillar74 having some of the horrendous 6.0 Furds in his fleet helped sour his opinion and balance sheet away from diesels. It's possible that both he and SouthTexan have made a correct decision based on their needs and experiences.

It's almost like an insurance risk pool. If you have a huge pool of trucks the diesels may make sense but a smaller fleet could suffer a few unfortunate events and skew the outcome.

OP, glad to hear you have a new ride. My 6.4 Hemi is a 9.8 out of 10 as a daily driver which is what I do 95% of the time. While towing (11K 5th wheel) it's manageable and overall fine. I could afford a new truck but the money looks much better in my IRA than in my driveway. I suppose I'm getting old and, dare I say, responsible

That right there is a very good point which is the reason I always say that not all diesels are the same and you can't apply the issues that one diesel has to another. Those fuel pump and injector horror stories that people hear about are mainly from PSD's and Dmax's since they had the overly sensitive CP4 pump and piezo injectors. The failure prone glow plugs that the PSD and Dmax have are not found on a Cummins since it uses a more reliable grid heater. These are just a few of many parts that the PSD and/or Dmax use that the Cummins' doesn't.

This is why I generally ask someone what kind of diesel they own(ed) when they are complaining about all the failures and high costs. Nine times out of ten it is not a Cummins.

 

[Ratket]

I went with a 3/4 ton gas for price. No way was I going to pay the same for a 1/2 ton when a 3/4 ton could be had for the same price. I’m really tempted to trade in on a diesel and I may just do it in the next 6 months. If my credit union sends me a special financing promo of 1.9% apr again, I will trade in a heart beat.
Do I need a diesel? Nope-
Will the truck sit?- Yep
Will it tow?- Very very rarely.
We will use it when ever we go out of town, I will drive it on the weekends, and undoubtably my wife will drive it occasionally.
Only reason I will switch to a diesel is the money. The dealership has already told me they will Give me 10k over what I owe for my 6.4 in trade, coupled with like 3k Cash, I will be way ahead, plus my payments will drop About 100$ a month. I have never been in this position with a vehicle before and now I get it 100% - Pick up a diesel for for 45k Otd- Put 5-10k down on that, finance 30k-38k, after 2 or 3 years, you can easily trade that thing in and as long as it is clean, and the miles are low, you have enough equity to just rinse and repeat every three years. For me it is a no brainer. Just wish I had got a diesel the first time around, then my equity would be more.

 

[Catmandoo]

My rig has the 6.4 and weighs 12,500 to 13,000 everyday. I also pull a fifth wheel the weighs in the same area as your fathers. Truck was bought in January 2016 and I now have 70,000mile on it. I've pulled my trailer from one end of the country to the other. Not one problem yet other then I had a small coolant leak at one point. Until this truck I've own nothing but diesels for work trucks. I only pull my trailer 4-6 times per year on average. I pull somewhere, park it for 6 months, hook it back up pull it home. I couldn't justify buying a diesel for the extra money to pull a trailer 4-6 times a year. I have 4.88 gears and it pulls fine. Am I first one to the top of the mountain.... nope, am I the last.... Nope. This truck and engine have been great done everything Ive asked it to do, and at this point you'd have a hard time convincing me to go back to a diesel and it is cheaper to own a gasser. My wife couldn't believe when I came home with a gas truck, I told her "well if I dont like it I'll go buy a diesel, they make em everyday".

 

[SouthTexan]

Question! How much are you 6.4L guys paying for an oil change and how often do you change it?

 

[Catmandoo]

I pay approximately $70/change and I change my oil every 10-15k miles. Just getting ready for either my 5-6 oil change.

 

[SouthTexan]

I thought the factory recommends not more than 10k miles oil changes on the 6.4L?

 

[Catmandoo]

I thought the factory recommends not more than 10k miles oil changes on the 6.4L?

Could be ill admit I never read it, leave it up to my wife to read directions. I only use amsoil, a long time friend is a rep and made me a believer. We started testing my 2011 350 with 6.7 when I first got it. It wasnt until over 40k miles it said oil was starting to lose its lubricant.

 

[SouthTexan]

Okay lets do the math of a 100,000 mile cost of ownership using the maintenance schedule the owners manual recommends which is no more than 8k on the 6.4L and not the 10k that I thought.

Note that I am not going to apply the upfront cost since you get most of that on trade in/resale and some people can negotiate to deduct more off of MSRP than the cost of the diesel(14k off MSRP in my case) I am going to use the hand calculated mileage number from fuelly.com which has the 6.7L averaging 15.5 mpg and the 6.4L averaging 12 mpg. I am also going to use current fuel prices around me which is $2.15 per gallon for regular(even the the manual now recommends super for the 6.4L) and $2.55 for diesel.


6.7L diesel (100k mile power train warranty)

Fuel (6,451.61 gallons used) - $16,451.61

DEF (129 gallons used at 2% ratio) - $334.11 at the pump

Air Filters (3.33 times at $30) - $99.90

Oil Changes ($70 dealer at 6.7 times) - $469.00

Fuel filter ($100 online at 6.7 times) - $670.00

CCV filter (at 70k miles) - $75.00

Grand total - $18,033.62


6.4L Gas

Fuel (8,333.33 gallons used) - $17,916.66

Air Filter(3.33 times at $20) - $66.60

Oil Changes ($70 at 12.5 times) - $875.00

Grand Total - $18,848.26


Of course this does not count any kind of towing mileage for those that tow more which would tip the favor to the diesel even more. Also, if fuel costs increases from the prices used, the benefit will increase on the diesel. If they go down from these numbers then it will benefit the 6.4L.

Last but not least, fuel prices in the winter favor the gas engine because the price spread between diesel and gas is greater(usually between$.30-.50) since diesel is used for heating fuel causing demand to increase while the spread during the summer is less(usually between $.15-.30) since the demand for gasoline goes up. Sometimes it is almost even during the summer. I did not account for this and just used my current winter prices with a $.40 difference. If I did, then that would benefit the diesel as well.

 

[Docpaulo]

You omitt3ed the big factor..upfront cost

If you Factor in how much you paid on interest for 8k in 5 years... and how much of that 8k you get back... its not the full 8k.. lets say 7k...

Any discount on diesel applies to gas too.. sometimes there is an additional hemi discount like a few years ago


Suddenly the math is different...


Personally i dont like the cummins rattle on a long drive... the ml350 diesel is a different story... feels like a gasser comfort wise..

Most diesel owners get used to the diesel rattle and noise... but its there... most annoying at a stoplight

And as mentioned in the winter diesel cost in my area just shot up...

Bottom line if you tow regularly the cummins will shine... otherwise hemi is probably good enough

Good analysis though... its basically insignificant... so buy what makes sense. ... also shows diesel is not cheaper to operate unless you tow... that extra mpg is eaten up by other costs

 

[SouthTexan]

You omitt3ed the big factor..upfront cost

If you Factor in how much you paid on interest for 8k in 5 years... and how much of that 8k you get back... its not the full 8k.. lets say 7k...

I didn't omit it. I stated why I did not add it and I was responding to . Also, if you got good credit and can get 0% financing(which Ram currently has for 72 months) then that added interest is a moot point. Heck, even if you get 1.9%(which is pretty standard for people with good credit) then the added interest on that amount is insignificant. Now I can see if you have bad credit and are getting 7% interest or higher, but if you are at that point then you probably have no business buying a new truck especially one that is $40k or more.

Although I will say that most people generally don't shop like that. Most people I know have a figure of how much they want to spend on a truck and try to get as many options on the truck that will fit in that amount. So most will be paying $45k regardless if it is decked out 4x4 Laramie with a 6.4L or a base 4x2 Tradesman with a 6.7L. It just depends on which option are more important, bells and whistles or pulling power.

Any discount on diesel applies to gas too.. sometimes there is an additional hemi discount like a few years ago

No they don't, and I am not talking about factory discounts. I am talking about negotiated price which $14k off MSRP is pretty standard for most Cummins owners that take the time negotiate pricing with the dealer. This is generally the case with higher optioned vehicles especially when you have good credit.

Good analysis though... its basically insignificant... so buy what makes sense. ... also shows diesel is not cheaper to operate unless you tow... that extra mpg is eaten up by other costs

Insignificant? Oh really? Where is the data to back this up? Here is mine and this was even with pre-DEF trucks that got worse fuel economy and had shorter oil change intervals than 2013+ post DEF trucks.....

Total Cost of Ownership: A Diesel Versus Gasoline Comparison

3 year Analysis


5 Year analysis


You guys keep talking about all these costs, but have yet to show any real data backing it up. However, if you came from a Ford Powerstroke then I can see why you might say this as the charts above show.

I also have stated to buy what makes sense, but some people here keep posting this false higher cost claims based on no real data. When you actually put pen to paper then you can see the truth.

 

[Catmandoo]

Nice post, you've really done your homework, but you don't have to get approval from me to buy a diesel truck. I just go off real world experience, my rigs get abused, are strictly for work not to drive around town waving out the window at everyone showing them how cool my truck is. They weigh 12-14k lbs and are just a tool and spend the majority of its life off road. I don't care about their resale because when I'm done with them I've made a lot of money off of it and they are junk. Once you get past 100,000 miles what happens when the turbo goes out? Or you have EGR/exhaust sensor problems? Or any other problem a diesel may have. You have to pay for it and it's gonna be expensive. Nothing about maintenance on a diesel is cheap and even worse is being on the road and trying to find a mechanic that is competent to work on it. Your assumption is a vehicle has no problems to 100k miles which a vehicle shouldn't. But that 100-200k that's where you find out how good your truck is. I've found that 100-200k mile area usually to be an expensive one for Diesel engines.

 

[mtofell]

Question! How much are you 6.4L guys paying for an oil change and how often do you change it?

6.4 Hemi - I bought a 6-pack at the dealer for about $400 so about $65/change. This seems to be about what the supplies cost. And yes, there is something in the manual about not going more than a certain mileage between changes (although, I find it odd that the % and miles counter in the truck doesn't reflect this).

Retail single oil change at the dealer is totally ridiculous @ well over $100.

Aside from all the calculation and whatnot the main difference with diesel and gasser maintenance is the fuel filter change frequency. Doing the changes yourself can easily make the diesel less of a maintenance "hog." For that matter, when I had my diesel I did the oil and fuel filter myself. I guess that's my breaking point - gasser which only needs oil change and can be bought at the dealer for roughly the same cost as supplies? Sure, have the dealer do it. Oil change AND fuel filter? No way I'm paying that much so I'll do it myself.