The things nightmares are made of...

[nateinva]

I'd be suspicious of the oil change. You did your changes with no problem using the same oil and filters. Going to that different oil and filter I'd be suspect of the quality and the shop personal that put it in.

Exactly

 

[chrisbh17]

Exactly

Id be suspicious of the oil change as well, but would it really toast a cam and lifters that quickly?

 

[Hemi395]

Wolf's Head oil isn't the greatest. No moly and low TBN. Could've been the final nail in the coffin for your cam...

 

[chrisbh17]

After reading through the cam and lifter swap DIY, I think I will say it: if you have the ability to DIY it, at 100K miles we should change our cam and lifters, period.

Use Hellcat lifters that dont seem to have the issue and any cam you want (hell even the stock might get you another 100K miles although the pics of it in this thread Im not sure I want it in my engine even at 10K miles).

Im not sure when my truck would ever get to 100K miles, but at that point if I plan on keeping it I will be building this project into the budget.

 

[nateinva]

Wolf's Head oil isn't the greatest. No moly and low TBN. Could've been the final nail in the coffin for your cam...

Totally plausible, just no way to prove it.

Jay Greene was posting on this issue too on the Facebook group. I shared the same photos there. He feels like it's the cam that's the main issue with all these failures, supported by how the cam lobes look in general (porous/pitted). Like material is wearing off the cam and causing the lifters to fail...also totally plausible.

Bottom line, the oil seems to make all the difference in these engines....moly, moly, moly.

 

[Hemi395]

My biggest concern with the cam swap is getting the heads machined. The closest machine shop to me is an hour away...

 

[chrisbh17]

My biggest concern with the cam swap is getting the heads machined. The closest machine shop to me is an hour away...

The cam swap diy doesn't make it seem necessary to machine the heads if you are just replacing the cam. So one could take a perfectly good engine, swap the cam with no other work and be pretty confident the problem is solved. Totally depends on the mileage, I guess.

Still a crapshoot considering we've seen failures at as low as 32k miles.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

 

[Hemi395]

Heres a video that outlines the cam swap procedure. Not in depth, but it gives you an idea.

 

[nateinva]

The cam swap diy doesn't make it seem necessary to machine the heads if you are just replacing the cam. So one could take a perfectly good engine, swap the cam with no other work and be pretty confident the problem is solved. Totally depends on the mileage, I guess.

Still a crapshoot considering we've seen failures at as low as 32k miles.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Yeah it normally shouldn't be required. I didn't even know about having a corner not mating flush. It hadn't started leaking yet but could sooner than later and it was allowing moisture to go places it shouldn't. I'm glad my mechanic was equipped to deal with it. If I had more cash to burn I would've gotten him to do some work on the heads while they were off. Hell, it's just time and money right? lol

 

[HammerHead]

Some of you guys have followed my recent posts. Two weeks ago got a misfire on #3. Did the simple stuff and changed plugs/swapped coil pack/cleared codes. The misfire came back before I drove 100 yards. Oh $#@

In less than 1000 miles the truck developed a metal on metal tapping and became undrivable.

So here's the good stuff....failed lifter on #3 and resulting damage...pics attached, and check out #1 starting to get in on the action.

No way in hell I was going to replace the cam with stock so went to Moe's and ordered the HPT cam, install kit with new springs and replaced all lifters (non MDS). Also tossed in JBA shorties for good measure. I didn't go LTs due to simplicity and budget (or complete lack thereof). The heads had to come off and it was a good time to ditch the stock manifolds.

This happened at 138k miles. Prior to this I've done all my regular oil changes 5k - 7k intervals, but due to weather most recently had a shop do the change. All my changes were Pennzoil Platinum 5w20 and WIX or Boss filter....never any problems.

Two weeks prior to lifter failure the shop changed my oil with Wild Wolf 5w20 Synthetic....not sure on filter. Trying not to draw conclusions......


Now everything is back together and she's a beast. PUP 5w30 from here on out and it'll be a couple very short OCIs to get rid of any remaining shavings that might be circulating. Also put a strong magnet on the oil filter to help catch anything.

In all, this cost me $3k in parts and $2k in labor. Labor included header install, some extra cleanup/parts, milling the heads, etc. If you ever deal with this, might as well figure on replacing the timing chain, the oil pump and the water pump if not done recently. Plus all the required gaskets and new head bolts. My guy that did all the work is Kevin Simpson in Central Virginia. He is awesome and if you ever need someone in this area I highly recommend him for any performance related work. He's done custom engine builds his entire life.

Any questions just shoot a reply.

That PUP will serve you well. It's scored 53rd place out of 216 oils tested on the oil testing web site. Click the link to see all the others. Enjoy!

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

 

[Burla]

^^^
You wouldn't want to test oils with zero combustion process and go around the internet pimping your results as proof of best oil unless you are in grade school.

more..

What rat hack says about hths....

HTHS (High-Temperature/High-Shear) test data only provides information on how capable various motor oils are at maintaining their viscosity under high heat and high stress conditions. But, that HTHS viscosity data DOES NOT provide any information at all about an oil’s wear protection capability. Because a motor oil’s viscosity DOES NOT determine its wear protection capability. and so yada yada

What MACHINE lube says..

Viscosity at Operating Conditions
In the early years of automotive engines, oils were simply formulated and obeyed Newton’s equation for viscosity - the more force used to make the fluid flow (shear stress), the faster it would flow (shear rate). Essentially, the ratio of shear stress to shear rate - the viscosity - remained constant at all shear rates. The engine oils of that time were all essentially single grade and carried no SAE “W” classification.

This viscometric relationship changed in the 1940s when it was discovered that adding small amounts of high-molecular-weight polymers appeared to give the oil the desired flow characteristics for both low-temperature starting and high-temperature engine operation. Accordingly, these polymer-containing oils were listed by the SAE viscosity classification system as multigrade engine oils, as they met the requirements of both viscosity temperature zones.

Since that time, multigrade oils (e.g., SAE 10W-40, 5W-30, 0W-20, etc.) have become very popular. However, they were no longer Newtonian in flow characteristics, as the viscosity was found to decrease with increasing shear rate. This was considered important in lubricating engines that operated at high shear rates (as measured in millions of reciprocal seconds), in contrast to the several hundred reciprocal seconds of the low-shear viscometers then being used to characterize engine oils.


Consequently, the need arose to develop a high shear rate viscometer to reflect the viscosity in engines under operating temperatures. In the early 1980s, an instrument and a technique were developed that could reach several million reciprocal seconds at 150 degrees C as well as exert high shear rates at other temperatures on both fresh and used engine oils. The instrument was called the tapered bearing simulator viscometer. The technique was accepted by ASTM as test method D4683 for use at 150 degrees C (and more recently as D6616 for use at 100 degrees C). This critical bench test of engine oil quality became known as high temperature, high shear rate (HTHS) viscosity. Minimum limits were then imposed for various grades in the SAE viscosity classification system.

Interestingly, it was later shown that this instrument was unique and basically absolute in providing measures of both shearing torque or shear stress and shear rate while operating. It is the only known viscometer capable of doing this.


So, Rat hack fundamental flaw is not making a test that understand this dynamic in engine oil. To heat oil to operating temp and do a one arm bandit and say this is the end all in engine oil testing is something a 9th grader would do. Your 15 minutes of fame is long over dude, if you want respect of the oil guys rolling around develop a long term high heat test that sees through low quality base oils, your test DOES NOT. How blind are you to not see this???

 

[Burla]

You want oils with high detergency , good additives, and clean base oils. PUP is in the top 5 for oils to use to prevent this, maybe number 1 and that is no joke. Don't believe me, believe Ram/Pennzoil engineers who specifically made PUP for the hemi, duh.

 

[CanadianNick]

That PUP will serve you well. It's scored 53rd place out of 216 oils tested on the oil testing web site. Click the link to see all the others. Enjoy!

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

 

[RoadRamblerNJ]

^^^
You wouldn't want to test oils with zero combustion process and go around the internet pimping your results as proof of best oil unless you are in grade school.

more..

What rat hack says about hths....

HTHS (High-Temperature/High-Shear) test data only provides information on how capable various motor oils are at maintaining their viscosity under high heat and high stress conditions. But, that HTHS viscosity data DOES NOT provide any information at all about an oil’s wear protection capability. Because a motor oil’s viscosity DOES NOT determine its wear protection capability. and so yada yada

What MACHINE lube says..

Viscosity at Operating Conditions
In the early years of automotive engines, oils were simply formulated and obeyed Newton’s equation for viscosity - the more force used to make the fluid flow (shear stress), the faster it would flow (shear rate). Essentially, the ratio of shear stress to shear rate - the viscosity - remained constant at all shear rates. The engine oils of that time were all essentially single grade and carried no SAE “W” classification.

This viscometric relationship changed in the 1940s when it was discovered that adding small amounts of high-molecular-weight polymers appeared to give the oil the desired flow characteristics for both low-temperature starting and high-temperature engine operation. Accordingly, these polymer-containing oils were listed by the SAE viscosity classification system as multigrade engine oils, as they met the requirements of both viscosity temperature zones.

Since that time, multigrade oils (e.g., SAE 10W-40, 5W-30, 0W-20, etc.) have become very popular. However, they were no longer Newtonian in flow characteristics, as the viscosity was found to decrease with increasing shear rate. This was considered important in lubricating engines that operated at high shear rates (as measured in millions of reciprocal seconds), in contrast to the several hundred reciprocal seconds of the low-shear viscometers then being used to characterize engine oils.


Consequently, the need arose to develop a high shear rate viscometer to reflect the viscosity in engines under operating temperatures. In the early 1980s, an instrument and a technique were developed that could reach several million reciprocal seconds at 150 degrees C as well as exert high shear rates at other temperatures on both fresh and used engine oils. The instrument was called the tapered bearing simulator viscometer. The technique was accepted by ASTM as test method D4683 for use at 150 degrees C (and more recently as D6616 for use at 100 degrees C). This critical bench test of engine oil quality became known as high temperature, high shear rate (HTHS) viscosity. Minimum limits were then imposed for various grades in the SAE viscosity classification system.

Interestingly, it was later shown that this instrument was unique and basically absolute in providing measures of both shearing torque or shear stress and shear rate while operating. It is the only known viscometer capable of doing this.


So, Rat hack fundamental flaw is not making a test that understand this dynamic in engine oil. To heat oil to operating temp and do a one arm bandit and say this is the end all in engine oil testing is something a 9th grader would do. Your 15 minutes of fame is long over dude, if you want respect of the oil guys rolling around develop a long term high heat test that sees through low quality base oils, your test DOES NOT. How blind are you to not see this???

He will NEVER see it Burla. Facts don't matter if they interfer with what he wants his "data" to say. Lol. Rat Hack. You made me laugh.....again.