2021 2500 Cummins

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nlambert182

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I’m talking to the OP, he’s the one introducing the L-word. Considering he’s in NY, it’s pointless to be advising him to go down that road.

But I’m certainly willing to learn something new, if you can show any official statement or statute in Alabama “allowing” removal of emissions equipment I’d love to see it. To the best of my knowledge it’s essentially “don’t ask - don’t tell”.

As a point of clarification, none of this means I’m in favor of increased regulation. Far from it. From my perspective, it’s merely financial prudence to understand the consequences of modifications. I, too, live in a state that doesn’t give any effort to enforcement. But you can’t trade in a vehicle any more without the dealer requiring a written statement of

I am merely making a point in MY area and I caveat what I say (as I did above), so I am not telling the OP to delete their vehicle. As I said before, Alabama does not penalize anyone (aside from DOT with a commercial OTR truck) for deleting their truck. You'd be hard pressed to find any LEO in my state willing to write you for a delete kit. It's just not on the radar. I have family that are state troopers, one city LEO (South Alabama), and two county LEOs (one in North and one in South AL). We've had these discussions and the comments were all the same. If you want to do it, do it. We have other things more important than crawling around under your truck to see if you have a dpf on it.

I get that every state is different, but we're all really just commenting using our personal experiences, right? My experiences in AL are that deletes are acceptable and do not prohibit shops from working on them nor dealerships from trading them in. I just sold my fully deleted 2016 3500 to the BMW dealership here in January. There were no questions asked, nor documents required to be signed stating the emissions equipment was still in tact. They did not care. The shop that installed my exhaust after my delete, did not care that there was no emissions equipment installed. They simply installed what I asked, I paid, and we parted ways. No paperwork aside from an invoice.

More importantly to my point, I also told the OP that I wouldn't shy away from one that needs to maintain the emissions equipment either. These trucks are still built extremely well and there shouldn't be concern of injector failure at 100k miles (given proper maintenance) or really any other major engine flaw aside from the CP4 issues. If the emissions system fails, replace it. Keep on top of regen cycles, etc.. and get another 100-150k trouble-free miles out of it. More importantly than talking about deletes and their legality, I don't want the OP thinking that a newer Cummins is going to require major overhaul work at 100k miles. That's just not true.
 

jejb

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Hence why I said if your state allows it. Whether it's legal on a federal level or not... if the state doesn't enforce it then its a moot point.
Not a moot point when you go to get warranty work done on your modified motor. Gives them a very handy excuse to deny warranty claims.
 
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nlambert182

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Not a moot point when you go to get warranty work done on your modified motor. Gives them a very handy excuse to deny warranty claims.
I wouldn't suggest it for anyone in warranty (which should be common sense)... but by the time the system typically fails you're out of warranty anyhow, so we're back to the moot point. :D
 

Travelin Ram

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More importantly than talking about deletes and their legality, I don't want the OP thinking that a newer Cummins is going to require major overhaul work at 100k miles. That's just not true.

I don’t think you can show where I stated anything like that. I stated I’d expect to replace some injectors and emissions parts prior to 200k. If there’s a source of hard data out there to refute that expectation, as I’ve said I’m happy to hear of it.

The people I know who own them and maintain them are not experiencing many 6.7’s going that distance without some parts infusion.
 

nlambert182

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I don’t think you can show where I stated anything like that. I stated I’d expect to replace some injectors and emissions parts prior to 200k. If there’s a source of hard data out there to refute that expectation, as I’ve said I’m happy to hear of it.

The people I know who own them and maintain them are not experiencing many 6.7’s going that distance without some parts infusion.

I agree with you on the emissions parts. You will likely replace at least some of them.


You may assume this as anecdote, but I'll put it out there anyhow. A few moons ago, I was a service writer at a local large International (Navistar) truck dealership for about 5 years before moving to outside sales. We were Cummins dealers and did all of Cummins warranty work around the Huntsville area. In 5 years there as a service writer, I think we might have replaced injectors on a 6.7 2-3 times, and all were well over the 300k mark.

Poor fuel quality, lack of maintenance (fuel filters), and driving these trucks to the grocery store kills injectors. Not poor build quality. They're designed to work and work they do. I got out of a 6.4 Powerstroke (an International/Navistar engine) to go to the 6.7 Cummins because of the longevity and reliability of them. I was not a popular guy at the dealership for a while. Especially when the reps came by to visit.

"The Cummins diesel is a longevity engine. When serviced properly, the engine should last 500,000 to a million miles between teardowns. Peripherals like the turbocharger, fuel injectors and the fuel pump, however, can wear out or fail much earlier.

A well maintained fuel system can keep injectors going for 250,000 miles or more. "



There are plenty of other forums that I won't link here (not sure of the rules) but that are easily searchable with Google. Those will quickly provide a lot of data on how long people are seeing their injectors last. But I'll paste a few of their comments.

"Second "owner" stock 216k"

"(Knocks on wood before answering) Yes, the newer injectors aren't quite as finicky as the older ones. But proper filtration is everything with these engines. I work with a few who are in the low, to mid, 200k, on stock. But they are all running 2 filters. Cheap insurance."

"I have seen some last 25k miles and others last 400k miles. The first one lasting only 25k miles was a grocery getter. The secound with 400k miles was a hotshot truck pulling a trailer 99percent of the time with stock filtration. If these things are worked as designed and not messed with a whole lot as far as advancing the timing or programing its amazing the difference."

"I went 320000 on my stock injectors. Tuned at 100000 and pulls everyday."

"I have a 2008 6.7 getting ready to swap injectors i have 320,000 on mine hoping my next set will last half as long"

"Our 2011 box truck dropped a valve at 270k. I sent the injector in for a bench test, and they said it was good to go, but the block turned out not to be."

"I currently have more than 511k on the truck and I'm still running stock injectors. Replacing the electric lift pump in the morning though...."


I could keep going, but you get the point. Cummins nor anyone else is going to give you a life expectancy number on wear parts because they don't want to be on the hook for it when someone neglects their truck and runs it into the ground. But evidence is easily attainable.
 
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Dbiiker214

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I agree with you on the emissions parts. You will likely replace at least some of them.


You may assume this as anecdote, but I'll put it out there anyhow. A few moons ago, I was a service writer at a local large International (Navistar) truck dealership for about 5 years before moving to outside sales. We were Cummins dealers and did all of Cummins warranty work around the Huntsville area. In 5 years there as a service writer, I think we might have replaced injectors on a 6.7 2-3 times, and all were well over the 300k mark.

Poor fuel quality, lack of maintenance (fuel filters), and driving these trucks to the grocery store kills injectors. Not poor build quality. They're designed to work and work they do. I got out of a 6.4 Powerstroke (an International/Navistar engine) to go to the 6.7 Cummins because of the longevity and reliability of them. I was not a popular guy at the dealership for a while. Especially when the reps came by to visit.

"The Cummins diesel is a longevity engine. When serviced properly, the engine should last 500,000 to a million miles between teardowns. Peripherals like the turbocharger, fuel injectors and the fuel pump, however, can wear out or fail much earlier.

A well maintained fuel system can keep injectors going for 250,000 miles or more. "



There are plenty of other forums that I won't link here (not sure of the rules) but that are easily searchable with Google. Those will quickly provide a lot of data on how long people are seeing their injectors last. But I'll paste a few of their comments.

"Second "owner" stock 216k"

"(Knocks on wood before answering) Yes, the newer injectors aren't quite as finicky as the older ones. But proper filtration is everything with these engines. I work with a few who are in the low, to mid, 200k, on stock. But they are all running 2 filters. Cheap insurance."

"I have seen some last 25k miles and others last 400k miles. The first one lasting only 25k miles was a grocery getter. The secound with 400k miles was a hotshot truck pulling a trailer 99percent of the time with stock filtration. If these things are worked as designed and not messed with a whole lot as far as advancing the timing or programing its amazing the difference."

"I went 320000 on my stock injectors. Tuned at 100000 and pulls everyday."

"I have a 2008 6.7 getting ready to swap injectors i have 320,000 on mine hoping my next set will last half as long"

"Our 2011 box truck dropped a valve at 270k. I sent the injector in for a bench test, and they said it was good to go, but the block turned out not to be."

"I currently have more than 511k on the truck and I'm still running stock injectors. Replacing the electric lift pump in the morning though...."


I could keep going, but you get the point. Cummins nor anyone else is going to give you a life expectancy number on wear parts because they don't want to be on the hook for it when someone neglects their truck and runs it into the ground. But evidence is easily attainable.
I appreciate all your help. This is very informative. Going to read that article. I don’t know much but I’m learning more haha. Maybe I’ll look into delete /tuning after the warranty expires !
 

nlambert182

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I appreciate all your help. This is very informative. Going to read that article. I don’t know much but I’m learning more haha. Maybe I’ll look into delete /tuning after the warranty expires !
I'm only here to help, as most everyone on the forum is. Don't take anything that I said as a dig towards anyone else because it was not intended that way. The only thing that I really want to point out is to do your research. One person's experience doesn't equal a trend or a pattern in either longevity or reliability. It also doesn't mean that experience wasn't valid for that person. But, sometimes that one bad experience could jade someone's opinion on a specific platform.

As I mentioned earlier, deleting FOR ME was always the way to go primarily because when my emissions equipment failed (and it did, both times...) it was more cost effective and faster for me to overnight a delete kit and slap it on the truck so that I could keep driving.

My 2012 2500's DPF failed (no DEF on a 2012) and the cost to replace it was $1,900 and it would take 3 weeks to get it. I deleted it for $1,300 the next day and only lost about 1.5 days of using the truck.

My 2016 3500's DEF pump failed. It was $2,500 and was on national backorder at the time. The soonest I could get one was 6 weeks and I needed the truck to haul a fifth wheel in 3 days. Overnighted a delete kit from California (of all places) and deleted it the next day. It cost me $1,600.

But again, we don't have state inspections. If you do I don't know that I would suggest it. I don't do it for power, I do it to increase reliability and decrease potential failure points. It has served me well for those purposes.
 

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Thanks for an enjoyable discussion @nlambert182 . We're just looking at the same facts through different lenses. Pre-emissions we could depend on an ISB to give several hundred thousand miles of reliable service with just fluid and filters.
Post emissions, a 6.7 in the same period will get into your pocket for 4 figure$ to either repair it or delete it. For some, that's NBD. Others like me don't accept the hassle of uncontrolled downtime. Which is even worse in the supply chain compromised world.

It's not about $ for me personally, I'm just not going to spend time in a rental car while my truck is sitting in a shop in some random town, waiting on whichever parts are available to be installed by whatever tech has time to fit it in. If I were staying closer to a fixed base unscheduled events would be less a hassle.

I think we've about worn this topic out- have a good one.

Post thought- of course even back in the good old days, there were thorns on the rose. Back then you'd need about 3 transmissions to wear out one ISB. :cool:
 

nlambert182

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Thanks for an enjoyable discussion @nlambert182 . We're just looking at the same facts through different lenses. Pre-emissions we could depend on an ISB to give several hundred thousand miles of reliable service with just fluid and filters.
Post emissions, a 6.7 in the same period will get into your pocket for 4 figure$ to either repair it or delete it. For some, that's NBD. Others like me don't accept the hassle of uncontrolled downtime. Which is even worse in the supply chain compromised world.

It's not about $ for me personally, I'm just not going to spend time in a rental car while my truck is sitting in a shop in some random town, waiting on whichever parts are available to be installed by whatever tech has time to fit it in. If I were staying closer to a fixed base unscheduled events would be less a hassle.

I think we've about worn this topic out- have a good one.

Post thought- of course even back in the good old days, there were thorns on the rose. Back then you'd need about 3 transmissions to wear out one ISB. :cool:
Absolutely! If I came across as combative instead of just having an open discussion, my apologies. I do indeed just enjoy a good old fashioned discussion. :)


I guess it's NBD to me because I got to see hundreds of Powerstrokes and Duramax engines in the shop getting torn apart for tens of thousands of dollars.

I also had the unpleasant experience of trying to keep my 6.4L Powerstroke on the road and the tens of thousands that it cost me. After I dropped the last $15k into the engine just to get it going again I switched to a Cummins. It's been the cheapest diesel I've ever operated in terms of reliability. But.... yes, they are still going to have the potential for a more costly repair when it comes to the emissions system. But.. that's all diesel engines now. It's one of those pay to play costs of ownership that most diesel owners accept when they buy one.
 
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JustARam22

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I picked up a 2021 bighorn for 43000 OTD with 56000 miles on it. Used to be a fleet truck. Runs and drives great.

I plan to pull a camper and don't want to struggle going through the mountains. If you want a diesel buy a diesel. There is added cost but it's all about what your comfortable with.

Everyone will have different opinions and a different experience. 2 people can have the same truck bought and made the same day but one turns out to be a lemon. Do a proper inspection and if it's what you want buy it
 
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RoosterR

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Looking at a 2021 2500 cummins with 72k miles. Used for long state to state drives. Is this too many miles to buy for a 2021? Truck looks good and clean and drives and sounds great.
Did the 2021 fall under the Y78 injection pump recall?
 

smittyd174

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Here's one more thing to check , see how many hours are on the motor . It tells you hours driving and hours at idle . Mileage doesn't always tell the story . A friend of mine looked at a low milage unit , checked engine hours they re were off the charts . Dealer came clean , truck was owned by a farmer , drove it to the fields and it idled all day . Brutal on a diesel and the exhaust system.

That scenario is worst than high Mileage and engine hours that would reflect that . If that truck has 71000 miles and say 1500 - 1600 hours it has done alot of highway running and not alot of idling or city driving .
 

Bandit1859

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Looking at a 2021 2500 cummins with 72k miles. Used for long state to state drives. Is this too many miles to buy for a 2021? Truck looks good and clean and drives and sounds great.
Don’t buy one that has a delete in it make sure it is completely stock.
 

nlambert182

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Don’t buy one that has a delete in it make sure it is completely stock.
Ehh.... I won't 100% agree with that but I will agree with a caveat. For me, it depends.

I don't typically buy one that has been deleted (though I eventually delete it myself) BUT... if the truck is bone stock aside from a delete, comes with all the service records, is clean and appears to have been maintained properly, isn't set to a hot tune, etc... I will consider it. Both my deleted Rams were bone stock aside from the delete and it was only done out of necessity. Both of those trucks were extremely well cared for, never ran on any tune other than stock, and sold the same day for my full asking price.

Just because a truck is deleted does not instantly mean that it has been hot rodded. Now.. if it has a 6" dump under the axle, is sitting on 35's, has a lift, and is running a 120HP tune then I would suggest sprinting for the hills.
 

chri5k

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I have 200,000 mi on my 2016. It has been well maintained which I think is key. Diesels like clean oil, clean fuel and clean air. I did have to replace the DEF pump at 70,000 mi. so I keep a spare on the shelf. I would prefer this to a 6.4 that develops a tick and eats the cam or fighting warped exhaust manifolds. Both of which are fairly common on the Hemis. Lastly, the 6.7 will out-pull the 6.4 all day every day.
 
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