Brake Controller

[RamCares]

Could you guys give me some examples of what specific trailer brake system, brand, etc. that you guys are using?

 

[yycmike]

2015 Arctic Fox. 2 7000lb axles by ALCO with OEM 12 X 2 electric brakes.

 

[cc rider]

2013 heartland torque toy hauler:
7000 pound dexter axles, elec. drum brakes. Not sure what brand they are since i bought it used and have no documenatation

Could you guys give me some examples of what specific trailer brake system, brand, etc. that you guys are using?

 

[drittal]

2015 Work and Play 30FBW. 2 - 6,000lb axles. Electric brakes. 8,000lb empty. Cannot slide trailer wheels to set brakes as instructed by owners manual on either heavy or light electric.

 

[BossHogg]

Could you guys give me some examples of what specific trailer brake system, brand, etc. that you guys are using?

You bet. I'm pulling a 2015 Keystone Montana 3791RD fifth wheel RV, about 15,000 pounds. It is equipped with two Dexter 7,000 pound axles, each axle wheel is equipped with 12x2 electric drum brakes. Each brake is specified at 12 volt, 3.25 amps.

Here is the axle tag;

 

[opie]

Hopefully no one takes my posts as a "the controller works as it is supposed to" posts. I am merely showing that my 2016 works as it should so perhaps they can pinpoint the issue.

Hauled 2 more loads of crushed asphalt today. Load 2 was 4.3 tons. Load 3 was 7.4 tons. GCW on load 3 was just a hair over 26,000 pounds. Yes, I am aware I exceeded all towing limits.... But the brakes worked as they should. I turned the gain up to 6 and had no issues stopping. No loss of confidence but I was driving fully aware that I had exceeded all towing limits of my truck. It was not intentional... New guy on the loader doesn't know his hand signals and thought a closed fist meant to empty the bucket.

 

[cc rider]

Has it even been determined if the 16's are affected. By the last post, I'm assuming they're not.

 

[DAVECS1]

Well I am kind of Puzzeled after these responses. My trailer is lighter , but I am using 12x2 Dexter backing plates on my tow rig. That looks to be the same as some people having issues.

Could it be wiring, because I custom wired my trailer myself, as it was originally hydraulic. I used 10 awg SXL wire. What I cannot remember is if the brakes are in series or parallel. I am heading to the toy box tomorrow so I will confirm. I wonder if load type plays into this. Depending on the driver Used, there has to be load specifications, and I don't believe there is anything in the manual about this. I wonder if I brought my brakes into range by wiring them in series.

 

[opie]

Has it even been determined if the 16's are affected. By the last post, I'm assuming they're not.

I'm pretty sure if my brake controller was only outputting 70%, with that last load I would most certainly have been less than satisfied with the braking.

Trailer empty or full, gain set at 5 I can use the manual slider, push it half way, foot off the brake and it will hold the truck stationary.

 

[opie]

I suppose I can check voltage at the brake pin truck side if anyone is interested.

I assume I can use a standard volt meter?

 

[nasaland]

Has it even been determined if the 16's are affected. By the last post, I'm assuming they're not.

NO, it has never been determined. I mentioned in a previous post that the part numbers had changed between 15 and 16. I never received an answer from my email to Mopar about what the difference between the part numbers entails.

Ram normally does not change part numbers between model years just for the halibut.

Yeah, this whole thing is fishy.

 

[15BlueStreak]

Still lurking here. Looks good that Ram looks to be involved more. Maybe a resolution is within reach. I must say everyone's diligence in this is awesome.

 

[15BlueStreak]

Oh by the way I tow a Jayco 314bhds with dexter axles. I do not know what size brakes they appear to be 12". They will not lock up brakes to set gain per Ram instructions.

 

[BossHogg]

Well I am kind of Puzzeled after these responses. My trailer is lighter , but I am using 12x2 Dexter backing plates on my tow rig. That looks to be the same as some people having issues.

You don't have the trailer weight like many of us with the issue, you need less power to the brakes. I'm sitting at 15K pounds, I need more power to get a stopping effort. It isn't the brakes, it is the ITBM limiting the amount of power it provides.

Could it be wiring, because I custom wired my trailer myself

Early in my investigation I thought that may be the case, as you will see in the scope shots I sent you, the on period of the PWM signal never gets above 67%. To confirm it wasn't a wiring issue with the truck or trailer, I installed a Prodgy P2 brake controller. No problems stopping, no problems at all. This was conclusive proof it wan't the trailer, brakes, or wiring.

I'm pretty sure if my brake controller was only outputting 70%, with that last load I would most certainly have been less than satisfied with the braking.

Trailer empty or full, gain set at 5 I can use the manual slider, push it half way, foot off the brake and it will hold the truck stationary.

It is all dependent on how much power your trailer brakes require. I can slide my slider all the way over, with the gain set to 10, the truck at idle, and the truck and trailer will move.

Oh by the way I tow a Jayco 314bhds with dexter axles. I do not know what size brakes they appear to be 12". They will not lock up brakes to set gain per Ram instructions.

Your trailer isn't heavy, 9K or so. You may not have issues, again, it is depended on how much power the trailer brakes require. The more trailer weight, the more power needed.

 

[nasaland]

Hopefully no one takes my posts as a "the controller works as it is supposed to" posts. I am merely showing that my 2016 works as it should so perhaps they can pinpoint the issue.

Hauled 2 more loads of crushed asphalt today. Load 2 was 4.3 tons. Load 3 was 7.4 tons. GCW on load 3 was just a hair over 26,000 pounds. Yes, I am aware I exceeded all towing limits.... But the brakes worked as they should. I turned the gain up to 6 and had no issues stopping. No loss of confidence but I was driving fully aware that I had exceeded all towing limits of my truck. It was not intentional... New guy on the loader doesn't know his hand signals and thought a closed fist meant to empty the bucket.

Okay, now this is a load closer to our 20K loaded toy haulers. A 10 ton load would be a good comparison.

We need to know what type of trailer brakes?

Since you already went over GCVW once next time put 10 tons in and try a semi-panic stop from around 40 mph and see if you get pushed by the trailer.

 

[DAVECS1]

I would not call hooking up the prodigy conclusive. It is a completely different technology. It is an analog voltage gain based on an accelerometer switch. It will be X-12V at whatever the trailer demands. If your wire in series or in parallel it does not matter as the brakes can pull whatever amperage they need.

I have to get on a PC to look at the brake data, but if it is truely a proportional PWM driver for the RAM controller. The voltage will be a steady 12V and the command will be 0-X.XX amps. What we don't know without documentation is the maximum amps of the driver. This will make a difference if the trailer is wired in series or parallel. Yes you are reading a low voltage, but amperage and voltage are dependent on a total power. Amperage multiplied by voltage gives you total wattage/ power. In most all PWM drivers the total amperage has a max limit. So measuring voltage at the pin does not really give the whole story as it looks low as amperage and wattage are actually changing to keep the voltage of the driver constant.

If these bigger trailer need more amperage than the driver can supply, then there is a pretty big issue. If the trailer brake controller is not driving the PWM driver to 100% to get the max amperage available, then that should be an easy fix. I assume everyone has gone through all 4 settings available to see if the PWM command is any different. I believe all the 4 settings are, is a different output map based on brake pedal input and possibly truck speed.

 

[DAVECS1]

So I just read over BossHog's material. He has put together a very comprehensive case with the correct data needed to demonstrate the issue that is present on his vehicle and possibly others.

What I did not gather on the forum (but did understand from his email) is that he did not just merely measure voltage. He has properly measured the PWM signal. I may have missed that in a previous post, I apologize. The system looks to be working properly as it stays close to 12V through most of its operation. THe issue as presented correctly by BossHogg, is that at a 100% pedal the duty cycle on his 2015 3500 only produces 67% duty cycle as opposed to the 2013 1500 he measured that produces a 98% duty cycle.

From his information this looks to be independent of vehicle speed. I have no reason to doubt his findings after looking at his information.

It looks as if all the inputs to the system are coming to the controller via the vehicles communication network. Weather that is pedal position and speed or some other combination of data who knows, except FCA possibly, at least they should.

I am a bit confused as the documentation Boss has alludes to a inertial switch. Not sure if this really exists or not. If it does exists, it definitely could be a suspect in the difference in performance, as I would imagine the 3500 would not have as much chassis movement as the 1500 and if they are using the same switch, that could be an issue or if the switch is defective.

Also I miss stated above about Boss's prodigy controller. Looking at his data. The prodigy controller is a PWM driven controller, similar to the Ram Controller. I will still not say it is conclusive, as the prodigy controller may have a more capable Driver than the RAM controller and may be more tolerant to different brake loads.

I still think there could be something related to how this driver is loaded.

Last but not least I think FCA's response to Boss's complaint is less than adequate. And his experience with the techs at the dealership is almost laughable. He has clearly collected the correct information to diagnose the problem. The techs he has worked with cannot even digest the information much less reproduce it and work towards a resolution. And so far his responses from FCA are not much better.

At any rate in my opinion he is owed a response, no matter the situation. This is either a warranty issue with the truck or design issue with RAM.

THe only thing that may be more helpful would to be get similar data aquisiton as Boss on other trucks.

 

[15BlueStreak]

Your trailer isn't heavy, 9K or so. You may not have issues, again, it is depended on how much power the trailer brakes require. The more trailer weight, the more power needed.[/QUOTE]


I know my trailer is not as heavy yours or the others. I have posted earlier in this thread about having same readings and such and the report i received from my local dealer. Just putting my info out their for RamCares as they requested. But for not having a light trailer they still do not lock even at very low speeds with gain at 10 and manually using slide bar. Which we know doesn't put full voltage out, again, just putting my info out there. Thank you for everyone's time.

 

[opie]

We need to know what type of trailer brakes?

What specifically do you need information on?

12 x 2 electric.

Since you already went over GCVW once next time put 10 tons in and try a semi-panic stop from around 40 mph and see if you get pushed by the trailer.

I do not intend to load the trailer that heavy ever again.

I will try a panic stop next time I get loaded, though.

 

[opie]

It is all dependent on how much power your trailer brakes require. I can slide my slider all the way over, with the gain set to 10, the truck at idle, and the truck and trailer will move.

I gathered as much via reading the thread.

I am simply pointing out that this is not the case on my 2016 truck so clearly there was a change to the 16 model year output of the controller.

Also, I am not attempting to diminish the issue you are having. I would be just as concerned as you are if I was in your shoes.