Full Delete

[mtnrider]

Maddog, how much better mileage? I am picking up a 2018 2500 on Friday and trying to figure out if the mileage advantage would be worth it for me.

I am not deleted but the overwhelming response I get and see from people that are (talking the newer DEF trucks) is about ~1 mpg, if that. They all say if you are doing it just for mpg it's a waste of money.

Now the pre-DEF trucks are a different story, people are seeing a significant jump in mpg on those

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[chri5k]

I received the message "Exhaust System Requires Service. See Dealer" the other day and it would not go away. If I changed the EVIC to display gauge summary this message would pop back up in a minute or so. From reading this is usually do to an issue with the DPF / SCR unit that leads to needing a replacement. That unit is over $2000 plus labor. I was contemplating ordering a tuner + delete kit that was well under $2000.

Turned out I forgot to reconnect the ambient pressure sensor on the air box when I took it out to change the serpentine belt. Not sure why that sensor on the intake side of the engine caused a message on the exhaust side. I reconnected it, used Alpha to clear the codes and all is well.

I would have gone the full delete route as it was less expensive. Eventually something expensive with the DEF or EGR system will go bad as well so it would have been money well spent to avoid future expensive repairs. I am OK with the stock performance and mileage so this would have strictly been a money saving play.

 

[SouthTexan]

I have been recording my mileage since new for 95k miles with my aCar app. Most people don't even keep records like that to even know how much they gained with a delete and are probably giving you assumptions based on what other people say. I deleted at 30k and have over 95k on the truck.

The app data can be exported to Excel. When I took out all of the tanks that I was towing, my average before I deleted was around 14.5 mpg. My average in the 65k+ miles after I deleted was 16.7 mpg. With fuel prices averaging $2.55 during that time, the $1,500 saved is almost enough to pay for the $1,700 it cost me. In another 10k miles(105k miles), the delete will pay for itself. But like was stated earlier, I did not for other reasons. The fuel economy savings was just a plus.

 

[Senodil]

I am interested in longevity of the engine, and the MPG would also be appealing but not the sole reason.

 

[JFV1134]

I am not deleted but the overwhelming response I get and see from people that are (talking the newer DEF trucks) is about ~1 mpg, if that. They all say if you are doing it just for mpg it's a waste of money.

Now the pre-DEF trucks are a different story, people are seeing a significant jump in mpg on those

.

Just wanted to jump in a clarify a few things here.

Regarding the EGR:
1) The EGR recirculates exhaust, especially while the engine is cold, so that any unburned fuel can get burned off during a second round of combustion. It has nothing to do with NOx levels, nor does it use anything related to the DEF/SCR system.
2) 2014+ Ram HD pickups are programmed to throw a message on the dash between 60,000 and 70,000 miles. This is entirely mileage based and does not require any other event or input. This message is for the owner to have the EGR and accompanying cooler cleaned out. The dealer will then reset the light. This service is approximately $1800.
3) Because this is a Diesel engine and the outlet into the EGR is before the DPF, soot will recirculate through the engine. That soot will act like dust particles causing premature wear on cylinder walls. There are several examples of engines where all crosshatch has been polished away. This will lead to blow by, and premature engine failure.

Regarding the DPF/SCR:
1) The DPF/SCR system is very effective at stopping any soot and NOx output before the exhaust pipe outlet.
2) The SCR system is most likely to be the longest lasting emission control system. I can’t foresee any type of failure or service that it will need for a long while.
3) The DPF has a usable life of about 100,000 miles. Regens, (both passive and active), can only do so much to burn off accumulated soot. Eventually these filters will plug and solidify, requiring replacement.

“Deleting” out the EGR and DPF/SCR will undoubtedly extend the life of the Cummins engine. No longer will dirty exhaust enter the engine, and no longer will the VGT, (Variable Geometry Turbo), have to suffer through unnecessary back pressure. Let your engines breath!!

 

[crash68]

Just wanted to jump in a clarify a few things here.

Regarding the EGR:
1) The EGR recirculates exhaust, especially while the engine is cold, so that any unburned fuel can get burned off during a second round of combustion. It has nothing to do with NOx levels,

You have this point all fuzzy..
One of the main reasons for use of an EGR is to reduce NOx this goes for both diesel and gas engines. A catalytic converter used on a gas engines won't work on diesels due to the lower exhaust temps and a diesel "lean" burn mixture.

An SCR and DEF can only break down so much NOx. Spraying more DEF into the SCR can only go so far before it's saturated

 

[chri5k]

Just wanted to jump in a clarify a few things here.

Regarding the DPF/SCR:

2) The SCR system is most likely to be the longest lasting emission control system. I can’t foresee any type of failure or service that it will need for a long while.

A number folks have reported failures of SCR system components such as DEF pumps, injector nozzles and DEF level sensors. These failures often result in the truck going into limp mode (5 MPH speed limit) or not starting / restarting. Some of the failures were in trucks with low mileage.

 

[mtnrider]

Just wanted to jump in a clarify a few things here.

Regarding the EGR:
1) The EGR recirculates exhaust, especially while the engine is cold, so that any unburned fuel can get burned off during a second round of combustion. It has nothing to do with NOx levels, nor does it use anything related to the DEF/SCR system.
2) 2014+ Ram HD pickups are programmed to throw a message on the dash between 60,000 and 70,000 miles. This is entirely mileage based and does not require any other event or input. This message is for the owner to have the EGR and accompanying cooler cleaned out. The dealer will then reset the light. This service is approximately $1800.
3) Because this is a Diesel engine and the outlet into the EGR is before the DPF, soot will recirculate through the engine. That soot will act like dust particles causing premature wear on cylinder walls. There are several examples of engines where all crosshatch has been polished away. This will lead to blow by, and premature engine failure.

Regarding the DPF/SCR:
1) The DPF/SCR system is very effective at stopping any soot and NOx output before the exhaust pipe outlet.
2) The SCR system is most likely to be the longest lasting emission control system. I can’t foresee any type of failure or service that it will need for a long while.
3) The DPF has a usable life of about 100,000 miles. Regens, (both passive and active), can only do so much to burn off accumulated soot. Eventually these filters will plug and solidify, requiring replacement.

“Deleting” out the EGR and DPF/SCR will undoubtedly extend the life of the Cummins engine. No longer will dirty exhaust enter the engine, and no longer will the VGT, (Variable Geometry Turbo), have to suffer through unnecessary back pressure. Let your engines breath!!

First off, have no idea why you are quoting me? Second, If you are going to jump in and clarify things you might want to fact check your information because some of it is just plan wrong.

2014+ trucks do not get a message for EGR cleaning. In fact they don't require EGR cleaning at all. That was only pre-DEF trucks. The message you get (at 67K) is for the crankcase ventilation filter replacement.

The EGR most certainly is there to reduce NOx emissions.
"The vehicle's exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system, an emissions system that is designed to recirculate exhaust gases back into the vehicle's intake in order to reduce cylinder temperatures and NOx emissions."

While I will agree the DPF "could" clog, I know many many very high mileage trucks still running with the original DPF so the "clogged at 100K" is a myth and speculation. Has it happened? Sure, but it's not that common if you are using the truck and not idling it 24/7.


.

 

[JFV1134]

First off, have no idea why you are quoting me? Second, If you are going to jump in and clarify things you might want to fact check your information because some of it is just plan wrong.

2014+ trucks do not get a message for EGR cleaning. In fact they don't require EGR cleaning at all. That was only pre-DEF trucks. The message you get (at 67K) is for the crankcase ventilation filter replacement.

The EGR most certainly is there to reduce NOx emissions.
"The vehicle's exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system, an emissions system that is designed to recirculate exhaust gases back into the vehicle's intake in order to reduce cylinder temperatures and NOx emissions."

While I will agree the DPF "could" clog, I know many many very high mileage trucks still running with the original DPF so the "clogged at 100K" is a myth and speculation. Has it happened? Sure, but it's not that common if you are using the truck and not idling it 24/7.


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You are clearly biased against having deleted diesels on the road. There is no "could clog" about it. They will clog, and the vehicle will be out of warranty when it does. DEF has nothing to do with the EGR. At all. I am quoting you because you are defending the emissions equipment on the vehicle and stating that they don't cause adverse effects. If you want your diesel engine to last 150,000 to 200,000 or more, you better delete it.

When my warranty runs out, I will absolutely delete all of the emission garbage. I want an engine that can run strong for several hundred thousand miles.

 

[mtnrider]

You are clearly biased against having deleted diesels on the road. There is no "could clog" about it. They will clog, and the vehicle will be out of warranty when it does. DEF has nothing to do with the EGR. At all. I am quoting you because you are defending the emissions equipment on the vehicle and stating that they don't cause adverse effects. If you want your diesel engine to last 150,000 to 200,000 or more, you better delete it.

When my warranty runs out, I will absolutely delete all of the emission garbage. I want an engine that can run strong for several hundred thousand miles.

Not at all. I am more then happy to delete mine "if" I start running into issues with the emissions.

Just separating fact from fiction and paranoia.

You are correct DEF has nothing to do with the EGR and I never said it did, however DEF is another mechanism (like the EGR) to reduce NOx. The addition of the SCR/DEF allows for a lot fewer EGR events then the previous years that did not use DEF. Hence the 2014+ do not need EGR cleaning like you said they did.

.

 

[SouthTexan]

Just wanted to jump in a clarify a few things here.

Regarding the EGR:
1) The EGR recirculates exhaust, especially while the engine is cold, so that any unburned fuel can get burned off during a second round of combustion. It has nothing to do with NOx levels, nor does it use anything related to the DEF/SCR system.
2) 2014+ Ram HD pickups are programmed to throw a message on the dash between 60,000 and 70,000 miles. This is entirely mileage based and does not require any other event or input. This message is for the owner to have the EGR and accompanying cooler cleaned out. The dealer will then reset the light. This service is approximately $1800.
3) Because this is a Diesel engine and the outlet into the EGR is before the DPF, soot will recirculate through the engine. That soot will act like dust particles causing premature wear on cylinder walls. There are several examples of engines where all crosshatch has been polished away. This will lead to blow by, and premature engine failure.

Regarding the DPF/SCR:
1) The DPF/SCR system is very effective at stopping any soot and NOx output before the exhaust pipe outlet.
2) The SCR system is most likely to be the longest lasting emission control system. I can’t foresee any type of failure or service that it will need for a long while.
3) The DPF has a usable life of about 100,000 miles. Regens, (both passive and active), can only do so much to burn off accumulated soot. Eventually these filters will plug and solidify, requiring replacement.

“Deleting” out the EGR and DPF/SCR will undoubtedly extend the life of the Cummins engine. No longer will dirty exhaust enter the engine, and no longer will the VGT, (Variable Geometry Turbo), have to suffer through unnecessary back pressure. Let your engines breath!!

Regarding the EGR:
1) The EGR recirculates air to lower combustion temps. NOx is created when combustion temps get above 2,800F. The reason why the EGR is mainly active when the engine is cold because the catalyst in the SCR(which is also used to lower NOx) is too cold to turn NOx into nitrogen and water vapor. So the EGR isutilised until the SCR gets hot enough.

2) Not sure about this one since mine was deleted way before then. My brother has 80k on his stock CTD and he never had a message.

3)The soot does not collect on the cylinder walls but it does collect in other parts like the EGR valve, EGR cooler and turbo vanes. Most of the soot in the cylinder will either get pounded into smaller particles upon combustion going out the exhaust or into the oil. When I worked at Cummins, I have seen 250k and 500k (simulated) still have cross hatch on the dynos. What washes the crosshatch away will be one of two things, high load/rpm during the first 10-15 minutes while the oil is still too cold to coat the engine and/or excessive regens causing the oil to get diluted with fuel.

Regarding the DPF/SCR:
1) Yes.
2) You may see a lot of the sensors on these fail.
3)The DPF should last longer than that but it is based on how the vehicle is used.

What many people do not know is that the VG turbo itself was put on these trucks due to emissions. So was common rail and multi-fire injectors. The cam profile is also trimmed for lowering emissions which is why even deleted these trucks are putting out less than the pre-2003 trucks.

Another thing is that NOx is only harmful in high quantities and dissipates really quickly. It is not like CO2(mainly put out by gasers) where it increases the amount in the air no matter where it comes from. NOx is also good for the upper ozone and a lot of it is created naturally every day like every time there is a lightning strike. NOx only becomes an issue in high populated areas so if you do not live in these highly populated areas(like Southern California) then you really don't need these emissions equipment. However, since one size fits all is the governments motto, every diesel sold has to have them regardless if the owner lives in a high NOx area or not.

In regards to PM, studies have shown that gasoline direct injected engines actually put out more PM than diesel, but since it is not seen most don't care about it. This is one reason why I hate coal rollers. The reason why the EPA has come down hard on the aftermarket diesel community is because these coal rollers are ******* voters off and if enough voters get pissed then the government steps in ruining it for those who want to delete but not roll coal. If these idiots would just keep it on the DL or on track then it would **** off a lot less people who will vote to have this problem solved.

 

[chri5k]

My 2016 hit 67,500 miles quite a while ago. Never received any messages on the EVIC. Asked dealer service advisor about the EGR cooler service and he said he has not heard about it being needed in years. I would think if an $1800 service was needed they would jump on it if a customer mentioned it. Oh, reminds me I need to order a new Crank Case Vent Filter, coming up on 125,000 miles.

 

[JFV1134]

Not at all. I am more then happy to delete mine "if" I start running into issues with the emissions.

Just separating fact from fiction and paranoia.

You are correct DEF has nothing to do with the EGR and I never said it did, however DEF is another mechanism (like the EGR) to reduce NOx. The addition of the SCR/DEF allows for a lot fewer EGR events then the previous years that did not use DEF. Hence the 2014+ do not need EGR cleaning like you said they did.

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I just checked and it appears that I was incorrect. I apologize for the misinformation regarding the EGR service. I would still worry about the soot prematurely wearing the cylinder walls. In addition, fuel injected during the exhaust stroke during a regen has been observed washing down the cylinder walls and ending up in the crank case. This is commonly referred to as "making oil" in the modern diesel world (not just Cummins). I look at it as preventative maintenance to delete.

 

[DodgeDude99]

The EGR does require cleaning, Mopar actually sells a kit for it, and it will throw a perform service message when it clogs/gets dirty.
Manual says to do it at 67,500 when you do the crank case filter.

delete the truck & be done with it.
Stock my truck was 22-24 highway, that dipped to 18-20 with the 35’s, back to 22-23 after the delete.

 

[mtnrider]

The EGR does require cleaning, Mopar actually sells a kit for it, and it will throw a perform service message when it clogs/gets dirty.
Manual says to do it at 67,500 when you do the crank case filter.

delete the truck & be done with it.
Stock my truck was 22-24 highway, that dipped to 18-20 with the 35’s, back to 22-23 after the delete.

That is ONLY on the pre-DEF trucks (2007.5-2012).

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[leeroy300]

Krazy-on Highways inc. great after sales service

 

[BubbaJo]

The EGR does require cleaning, Mopar actually sells a kit for it, and it will throw a perform service message when it clogs/gets dirty.
Manual says to do it at 67,500 when you do the crank case filter.

delete the truck & be done with it.
Stock my truck was 22-24 highway, that dipped to 18-20 with the 35’s, back to 22-23 after the delete.

shoot my 2012 with 35s gets an average of 14mpgs and it's bone stock at 97k miles.. towing i get around 10mpg.. looking to improve these numbers.. anyone think a delete and tune would help?

 

[SouthTexan]

shoot my 2012 with 35s gets an average of 14mpgs and it's bone stock at 97k miles.. towing i get around 10mpg.. looking to improve these numbers.. anyone think a delete and tune would help?

I was getting about the same mileage you are when I was running 35's(actually 34.5) un-deleted. I keep track of just about every fill up in an app. After deleting, I started averaging 16-17 mpg.

 

[BubbaJo]

i would be stoked with 16-17mpg honestly lol. My old F150 ecoboost got 15.2mpg on my normal driving, if i could beat that, with putting less fuel in my truck (34g tank v 36g tank) it would be money back in my pocket. Hoping to keep this truck for awhile. so i'm a little worried on the deleting and tuning

 

[GsRAM]

If you want your diesel engine to last 150,000 to 200,000 or more, you better delete it.

When my warranty runs out, I will absolutely delete all of the emission garbage. I want an engine that can run strong for several hundred thousand miles]


I'm personally aware of several ambulance fleets with these trucks in service for several years now. These trucks all have the original emissions equipment on them and many are past the 300,000 mile mark. As was said and correctly so, idling is one of the worst things to do for a diesel, for many reasons. If you spend a lot of time idling, your more likely to have issues. These ambulances are run hard and I think that's a big reason they last. At least the ram chassis ones. The Ford's....well that's another story! Lol.