Help! Another ABS discussion!

[Al Handy]

I have 30,300 miles on my 2018 Power Wagon, the ABS-traction control-service brake message started over a about 6 months after I purchased the truck new, blinking and message randomly at first, finally happening every minute or so. Took it to the dealer, replaced the ABS module, a day later message is back. Back to the dealer they replaced the ABS pump. back again they replaced the module again. back again they replaced the radio, they new radio spoke a different language and couldn't communicate with the truck, back again for another radio. so far I think it has been 3 ABS modules, 2 pumps 3 radios (all including the original).

The final step suggested to the dealer was to replace the PCM, which happened yesterday. A mile from the dealer the service brake system message came back!!!! I am at my wits end. BTW the wheel sensors are NOT throwing any codes. The 4 WD engaged light did come on even though it was in 2 WD they adjusted the switch.

Things I plan to do: check the fuses, check the plug by the ABS system and wheel well for corrosion, and check the ground connections. All suggested by others having the same problem. I will keep you all informed on how I do.

If the ABS completely fails, do the brakes fail too? I would think not, but this could be a life safety issue. Big liability for me and MOPAR.

Do I lemon law this truck, I really like it and have dumped some $7500 of aftermarket parts in it, custom pin stripes, Magna flow, MAG-HiTec pan, OEM finned diff cover, running boards, bed cover, etc etc ---that I will not get back.

Any other suggestions on what to look at? Any help would be greatly appreciated. THANK YOU!

 

[Omegasupreme]

Here's what I know. Dealer ships are useless at diagnosis. Take it to independent. Talk to ram cares.

 

[Al Handy]

Thank you, and yes @RamCares did contact me, I am waiting for my Case Manager to contact me. However, they did just contact me Friday afternoon, so I sure it will be a while be he/she contacts me.

As a quick up-date, today I checked the connections at the bottom of the right fender behind the wheel well (one of the suggestions). There was no corrosion. I checked the fuses, every fuse in the fuse box was not completely seated, they were all not "sent home" (another item suggested to check). In addition, I took the ground frame wire off, sanded it clean and reattached it.

Pulling the plastic wheel well was a PIA!

 

[ScubaSteve178]

The problem is in the wiring harness somewhere, almost guaranteed. Replaced all the pertinent parts with no change, and it being intermittent, it is likely a broken wire or loose pin in a connector. Happens sometimes. Typically any sort of intermittent problem like this is going to be the result of a bad connection or broken wire. A competent tech should be able to locate pinouts for various connectors and check for continuity end to end and find it that way.

 

[2003F350]

The problem is in the wiring harness somewhere, almost guaranteed. Replaced all the pertinent parts with no change, and it being intermittent, it is likely a broken wire or loose pin in a connector. Happens sometimes. Typically any sort of intermittent problem like this is going to be the result of a bad connection or broken wire. A competent tech should be able to locate pinouts for various connectors and check for continuity end to end and find it that way.

We thankfully have a couple competent ones at the dealer near me...but there aren't all that many left.

 

[62Blazer]

The dealer is obviously just throwing parts at it. Makes absolutely no sense to replace the same part twice for no good reason.....granted, just because the part is new doesn't mean it is good but the chances of getting a defective OEM part with the exact same intermittent issue is very, very rare. Intermittent problems can be frustrating to track down but a decent tech with basic diagnostics ability should be able to at least narrow down the possible sources of the issue. As said above it's most likely the harness or connector someplace.
I've had several bad experiences with dealership repairs in the past. Two vehicles within 6 months of each other at the same dealership.....took them in for an issue and they supposedly fix the problem. Both times the issue came back before even getting out of the parking lot. That tells me they never even test drove the vehicle to verify it was fixed.

 

[RamCares]

Thank you, and yes @RamCares did contact me, I am waiting for my Case Manager to contact me. However, they did just contact me Friday afternoon, so I sure it will be a while be he/she contacts me.

As a quick up-date, today I checked the connections at the bottom of the right fender behind the wheel well (one of the suggestions). There was no corrosion. I checked the fuses, every fuse in the fuse box was not completely seated, they were all not "sent home" (another item suggested to check). In addition, I took the ground frame wire off, sanded it clean and reattached it.

Pulling the plastic wheel well was a PIA!

Thank you for this information. Feel free to keep us updated.

Rob
Ram Cares

 

[Al Handy]

After advising both the dealer and Ramcares, I was told they could not address the problem any further "since my truck has been modified" they did not indicate what modification and I think they are forgetting about the:

Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act Explained | AutoAnything Resource Center

As a side bar, I was told that my window tint (plastic film) blocked the signal from my TPS and this was why my TPS light was on! With the Power Wagon, we get D rated tires, not E, my TPS would trip at 64 pounds, in my mind this would be the threshold for the E rated tire. I adjusted the threshold to 40 PSI. No more problem.

As an update, I have addressed several recommendations found on the various forums from others who have (had) the same ABS problems that I am experiencing. These recommendations included checking the connections at the bottom of the right fender behind the wheel well. There was no corrosion. I used di-electric grease and reassembled the plugs, I checked the fuses, every fuse in the fuse box was not completely seated, they were all “sent home" by me, and pressed in place. In addition, I took the ground frame wire off, sanded it clean and reattached it.

Knock on wood!!! There have been no new codes since the stored code that set after I left the dealership (C121C). I do need to say since the PCM change the truck seems to be preforming better.

I spoke to another tech during a truck show, from a different dealer, and he indicated that they had one truck in for the same defect, which they changed 10 modules, the tenth one corrected the ABS problem. He assumed the first nine were defective.

It should be noted, that based on Magnusom-Moss the burden of proof that an aftermarket addition to any vehicle has caused damage to said vehicle, is up to Ram. A simple “it’s been modified” explanation will not appease the vehicle owner or the aftermarket manufacturer. Ram will need prove to me why a part that meets or exceeds manufacturers requirements caused any damage to my truck. Of course, if the part fails that will be a different story.

Since purchasing the truck new, the brakes have been mediocre at best. The peddle is “soft” and abnormally high pedal pressure is required to apply the brakes on a standard stop. In fact, the brakes are so poor on these trucks that several aftermarket manufacturers have either developed or are developing alternatives to the OEM system.


Question? Will low brake line or master cylinder pressure trip an ABS code? Is this problem more than electronic?

 

[62Blazer]

After advising both the dealer and Ramcares, I was told they could not address the problem any further "since my truck has been modified" they did not indicate what modification and I think they are forgetting about the:

Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act Explained | AutoAnything Resource Center

As a side bar, I was told that my window tint (plastic film) blocked the signal from my TPS and this was why my TPS light was on! With the Power Wagon, we get D rated tires, not E, my TPS would trip at 64 pounds, in my mind this would be the threshold for the E rated tire. I adjusted the threshold to 40 PSI. No more problem.

As an update, I have addressed several recommendations found on the various forums from others who have (had) the same ABS problems that I am experiencing. These recommendations included checking the connections at the bottom of the right fender behind the wheel well. There was no corrosion. I used di-electric grease and reassembled the plugs, I checked the fuses, every fuse in the fuse box was not completely seated, they were all “sent home" by me, and pressed in place. In addition, I took the ground frame wire off, sanded it clean and reattached it.

Knock on wood!!! There have been no new codes since the stored code that set after I left the dealership (C121C). I do need to say since the PCM change the truck seems to be preforming better.

I spoke to another tech during a truck show, from a different dealer, and he indicated that they had one truck in for the same defect, which they changed 10 modules, the tenth one corrected the ABS problem. He assumed the first nine were defective.

It should be noted, that based on Magnusom-Moss the burden of proof that an aftermarket addition to any vehicle has caused damage to said vehicle, is up to Ram. A simple “it’s been modified” explanation will not appease the vehicle owner or the aftermarket manufacturer. Ram will need prove to me why a part that meets or exceeds manufacturers requirements caused any damage to my truck. Of course, if the part fails that will be a different story.

Since purchasing the truck new, the brakes have been mediocre at best. The peddle is “soft” and abnormally high pedal pressure is required to apply the brakes on a standard stop. In fact, the brakes are so poor on these trucks that several aftermarket manufacturers have either developed or are developing alternatives to the OEM system.


Question? Will low brake line or master cylinder pressure trip an ABS code? Is this problem more than electronic?

While technically it is the responsibility of the manufacturer (with the dealer being a representative of the manufacturer) to prove the aftermarket part caused the failure, in reality it is the consumer who would have to fight it in court to prove otherwise. Not like there is a Magnuson-Moss police force you can call to go to the dealer that forces them to fix the car. So yes, IF you took them to court or took other legal actions they would have to prove this.....but again the consumer would have to instigate the entire process. If you ran into a very blatant case of the dealership denying warranty you can sometimes call the manufacturer directly and they will send out a rep to review and override the dealer. I know back when the Power Wagons and Jeep Rubicons first came out they were heavily advertised as off-road vehicles and had commercials of them blasting through mud and streams. At that time I did a lot of work for Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep on the engineering side so had some inside information from the engineers. People were getting warranty claims denied by dealerships because they brought those vehicles in and had mud packed in the frames and evidence of being off road. Dealerships claimed it was abuse or abnormal use. Denying warranty claims on these types of vehicles because of apparent off-road use was a blatant violation of the Magnuson-Moss Act and many dealers got overridden by the manufacturer (in the end the manufacturer pays for the warranty work and they only rely on the dealership to make a good decision.....kind of like how most insurance companies rely on body shops to provide the estimate so they don't have to send an adjuster to look at everything).

I will say that the comment about the tinted windows causing issues with the TPMS is absolutely crazy. I don't even think the module that reads the tire sensors is in the cab. That makes me question the knowledge of the dealership and would at least insist on giving me specifics of what aftermarket mods are causing the ABS issue and explain why. I would if they don't provide details you are going to contact Ram service directly.

 

[Al Handy]

I remember well the debacle they had with the Jeeps going off road and the horror stories.

The other thing was the "rear air bags you installed were interfering with the TPS signal", after I looked at them like they had 10 heads they came up with the window tint. Plausible, maybe if it was metallic film, but then why didn't the door block the signal?

And yes, correct, if push came to shove, I would need to present evidence of how the particular part did not do me wrong. However, with the number of posts and complaints lodged for the ABS system, this is not an isolated problem. Hopefully, this is not the same system BMW used, the ones that had a spontaneous combustion problems. And BTW the dealer finally admitted that they could not prove any of my modifications impacted the performance of the ABS.

It has been an interesting trip, and the service department did perform all the tasks Ram guided them to do, and for this I am grateful, and I hope others have at least taken away some information from this post. I am really praying that between the things I performed and all the new parts the dealer installed this is the end of it.

I still would really like to know if low brake line pressure would trip an ABS code.

It is getting more and more difficult for us "back yard" mechanics to enjoy working and maintaining our own junk.