Help plz Not just another MDS post... long read

[KensLambert]

This is my first post and I apologize that its long.
I have a 14 1500 that ate the cam. It is a new to me truck so I have no prior knowledge of maintenance. I did get the extended warranty so a new Hemi it is... now I have 2 choices. They are going to replace the engine with a Jasper. The choice is a NON MDS with a diablo tuner to turn off the MDS from jasper or a Regular Replacement MDS type, both engines will be the 395hp version. I have looked and researched and looked even more i just can not get a clear picture. At first I was going to jump at the NON MDS and forget the tick forever.... BUTTTT in my research and calling dealerships all over I have found that almost as many NON MDS lifter failures happen as well. What the factor on longevity of the cam seems to be is maintenance and oil changes.I also am a quoted "normal" driver that uses my tuck as a DD, hauler, and as a toy when I want to play, I mean who doesn't like to get sideways every once in awhile. I live in Colorado and my commute is 50 miles and has 2 mountains so the fuel saving on the MDS is nice but not huge, but is really nice on long trips which I do as well.

Now more technical thinking. Oiling issues are what kills our cam and lifters. Turning MDS off with a tuner or manual shifting does nothing more than disabling a switch. The MDS oil flow with the solenoids is different than NON MDS with the plates. I don't want to get into the full details and flow rates because that's not what I am asking. I know that I will always change the oil at 3000 to 4000 miles so that should help hey I said help it last longer so...

I am asking everyone if they have REAL PERSONAL knowledge of MDS vs NON MDS not just deactivated with a tuner. Longevity and fuel mileage with performance sadly being third what are YOUR findings on MDS vs MDS?

 

[Wild one]

If it's a proper mds delete,with a good quality cam and OEM non-mds lifters,odds are it'll never give you any cam/lifter issues again. Doing it right means replacing the mds solenoids with OEM Mopar non-mds plugs,which means the lifters will actually get more oil fed to the lifter body and lifter bores.That really doesn't put anymore oil onto the cam lobes or lifter roller,but does keep lifter bore scuffing down. If you're doing a full delete,you're also tuning it,and the best thing you can do is up the idle rpm to at least 750 or slightly more.
If both engines are Jasper remans,i'd go for the mds deleted one and tune it for a higher idle rpm

 

[Curmudgeon]

Welcome to RamForum!

I can't help with your dilemma but there are a lot of folks here who can.
Good luck.

 

[Ken226]

I'd try to talk the warranty people into a new, OEM engine, even if I had to pay the difference out of pocket. They aren't much more $ than a reman.

5.7L HEMI NON-MDS Truck Engine Long Block

5.7L HEMI NON-MDS Truck Engine Long Block

www.modernmusclextreme.com

Don take mine, nor anyone else's word for it though. DO a few searches here and elsewhere on the reman Hemis from the likes if Jasper, Powertrain Products and ATK.

Don't search just for Jasper, ATK or Powertrain Products engines in general, but specifically on Hemi engines from them. Some engines are a lot easier for a builder to get right than others. Using junk aftermarket lifters is a solid no-go on these engines.

Personally, I wouldn't touch a reman engine unless it was both guaranteed to me, AND proven, that in contained new, OEM cam and lifters.

 

[Daw14]

Jasper remans make me feel queasy.
I could not agree more with Ken’s suggestion on doing what is in your power to push for a Mopar crate or long block.

 

[KensLambert]

The warranty company picked Jasper, can't get the mopar as "equal part less money" in their minds. As a NON MDS was available as a "factory option" in their terms I can go either way. I talked to jasper via emails and they said they use the oem non mds plates and cam so same hp same everything but it includes a diablo tuner for the ecm deactivation. Not sure which diablo but its something. It does come with a 3 year 100000m warranty from jasper that covers labor for replacement. I was leaning towards the NON mds if the tuner is the diablo i3 so I can make changes but if its just a mds deactivater then I am leaning towards the mds and buying myself an i3, because Im not sure what "programing" is included and dont want the get into the whole ecm programing fight.

 

[Ken226]

I talked to jasper via emails and they said they use the oem non mds plates and cam.

What about the lifters, because that's the important part, not the plates, and not really the cam either.. OEM or aftermarket?

There are plenty of aftermarket cams and block-off plates that work fine. Lifters, not so much.

I've yet to hear of an aftermarket Hemi lifter that actually work. Except maybe Johnson, and even those only in race type engines. I've yet to year how they hold up long term.



Given your options and the probability of getting aftermarket, or even used lifters, I'd definitely go non-mds to minimize the amount of things they could screw up.

Keep your expectations low.

 

[Docwagon1776]

I'd be more worried about a Jasper rebuild than MDS vs non-MDS. If you look at fleet data, the lifters fail as often with one as the other.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Jasper engines are trash.

 

[HemiLonestar]

This is my first post and I apologize that its long.
I have a 14 1500 that ate the cam. It is a new to me truck so I have no prior knowledge of maintenance. I did get the extended warranty so a new Hemi it is... now I have 2 choices. They are going to replace the engine with a Jasper. The choice is a NON MDS with a diablo tuner to turn off the MDS from jasper or a Regular Replacement MDS type, both engines will be the 395hp version. I have looked and researched and looked even more i just can not get a clear picture. At first I was going to jump at the NON MDS and forget the tick forever.... BUTTTT in my research and calling dealerships all over I have found that almost as many NON MDS lifter failures happen as well. What the factor on longevity of the cam seems to be is maintenance and oil changes.I also am a quoted "normal" driver that uses my tuck as a DD, hauler, and as a toy when I want to play, I mean who doesn't like to get sideways every once in awhile. I live in Colorado and my commute is 50 miles and has 2 mountains so the fuel saving on the MDS is nice but not huge, but is really nice on long trips which I do as well.

LOL fell for the "it's all MDS fault", but at least you figured it out, most people don't. You will never get rid of the tick.

I am asking everyone if they have REAL PERSONAL knowledge of MDS vs NON MDS not just deactivated with a tuner. Longevity and fuel mileage with performance sadly being third what are YOUR findings on MDS vs MDS?

MDS works really well in the cars, especially the 392 cars. I have gotten mine to engage MDS at 89 mph (90 is the cutoff) and then slowly creep it over 90. The bomb on road trips. I can run two states away and back again at 75-85 mph on one tank as long as I keep my foot out of it and don't play on the highway........
Trucks on the other hand....it's in and out constantly with a 5.7. The 6.4 trucks might have a better time with it, I don't know. The only time I seem to really notice a mileage difference is long road trips with lotsa steady speed highway driving (and that's unloaded with no trailer). Around town I turn it off, towing it's off. I can take or leave the MDS in the truck.

 

[Grams]

I would never accept an aftermarket/rebuilder engine for a Mopar replacement. Period.

I would also consider the 50-state matter: Are you willing to accept a vehicle modification which disqualifies it for legal operation and/or sale in all 50 states?

IF you want non-MDS…then I suggest you avoid “tuner deletes”….and accept Only a fully non-MDS build engine…. from an OEM.

IMO

 

[EdGs]

Talk to the warranty people about replacement with an OEM engine.

For me personally, if it was a deal where the oem engine was a bit more that what they would pay for the reman, I would definately think about asking if I could perhaps cover the difference, especially if it was only $1k or so.

IDK if a warranty company would do this, but it certainly does not and would not hurt to ask IMO, and get copies of email correspondence, etc., IF they approve it.

Wish you the best possible outcome.

 

[SD2020]

I do not miss my MDS feature whatsoever, not much for mpg difference in my case either. Up here in Canada, the dealer never had any factory motors available at all. My only choice was a reman or rebuild. Diablo i3 tuner is ok but so dated its not funny, I think a squirrel powers it lol.

 

[Docwagon1776]

The 6.4 trucks might have a better time with it, I don't know.

Once you're over 75mph it's real intermittent. Downhill or for a split second when you lift off the pedal it may engage, but nothing steady. 70mph on flat with no wind, maybe it'll stay on pretty steady.

Just too much wind resistance with the trucks, I think. It still has plenty of power. The 6.4/8A feels great even at higher speeds, 80mph roads kicking down to pass and it's not out of breath in the slightest...but if there's a real significant headwind you'll see some single digit MPG...

 

[Wild one]

I would never accept an aftermarket/rebuilder engine for a Mopar replacement. Period.

I would also consider the 50-state matter: Are you willing to accept a vehicle modification which disqualifies it for legal operation and/or sale in all 50 states?

IF you want non-MDS…then I suggest you avoid “tuner deletes”….and accept Only a fully non-MDS build engine…. from an OEM.

IMO

How so.The 6 speed 5.7 and 6.4 Challengers are non-mds and the earlier 5.7's in the 2500's and heavier trucks were non-mds,all 6.2 Hellcat engines are non-mds whether it's a TRX or a Demon 170

 

[Grams]

How so.The 6 speed 5.7 and 6.4 Challengers are non-mds and the earlier 5.7's in the 2500's and heavier trucks were non-mds,all 6.2 Hellcat engines are non-mds whether it's a TRX or a Demon 170

I think I’m being misunderstood. I’m not anti-MDS. I was only expressing my preference for genuine OEM replacement engines if I were making a warranty claim. …. certainly not Jasper, or such.

 

[Wild one]

I think I’m being misunderstood. I’m not anti-MDS. I was only expressing my preference for genuine OEM replacement engines if I were making a warranty claim. …. certainly not Jasper, or such.

It was this part of your statement that had me wondering,lol.



"I would also consider the 50-state matter: Are you willing to accept a vehicle modification which disqualifies it for legal operation and/or sale in all 50 states?"

 

[Randy Grant]

From what I have read/seen, its the roller bearing that fails. Once you loose a needle, it's all over.

 

[Grams]

It was this part of your statement that had me wondering,lol.



"I would also consider the 50-state matter: Are you willing to accept a vehicle modification which disqualifies it for legal operation and/or sale in all 50 states?"

I was addressing the use of a “tuner” with a replacement engine. If the owner had plans to operate in some states…or offer it for sale in some states…the use of a tuner might be limiting.

 

[Docwagon1776]

How so.The 6 speed 5.7 and 6.4 Challengers are non-mds and the earlier 5.7's in the 2500's and heavier trucks were non-mds,all 6.2 Hellcat engines are non-mds whether it's a TRX or a Demon 170

Camaros are the same, no AFM on manual cars but automatics have it. AFM being GM's equivalent of MDS. 5th Gen Camaros actually get a slightly different motor, LS3 vs L99, but 6th Gens are all LT1s just with or without AFM.

I've always been slightly curious as to why, but I assume it's because they can game the emissions and drive loop testing easier with a manual somehow or other.

Do Challengers have the skip shift like GM products do, where in a very specific RPM range at a very specific throttle percentage it will try and force you to shift 1-4 instead of 1-2? GM has included that since at least the late 90s, but always designed it so a $20 part eliminates it. It's also much less intrusive in the newer ones as the range was narrowed a lot. Double clutching also eliminates it.